Is it OK to have nice things? Or is it greedy?

[LovebirdsFlying]

Following is a spinoff subject from this thread in WWMC. It raises questions I'd like conservatives to weigh in on, and I transferred this part of it here in case many of you don't have occasion to browse in WWMC.

And I quote:
_________________

NOTE TO CONSERVATIVE POSTERS: Please feel free to take me to task if you think I am being greedy, covetous, prideful, or whatever. I don't want an argument but would like a dialogue on the subject. I want both sides to speak up, because as I mentioned, my father called his refusal to own anything of good quality, "being conservative."

My winter coat is the best I've ever had. You can't get a coat like this any more. It seems retail stores nowadays sell "jackets" rather than "coats," whereas this one is full length, plush, and very warm. The chances of finding a coat like this in any thrift shop, in my size? Not hardly. I knew I couldn't find a coat I loved anywhere, in my size, for any reasonable price. So I made one, by hand. I simply added on to a jacket pattern to make it full length, and inserted quilt batting between the shell and the lining. I chose one of my favorite fabrics for the shell--forest green corduroy, which happened to be on sale. It cost me about $40 in materials to make it. But when one of my family members saw it, she *bragged* that she got her coat from the Goodwill. I spent more. I guess that makes me greedy and selfish? Or at best, unwise because I don't know how to pinch pennies like the rest of the family?

I'm not alone. My mother also has stated that sometimes she feels as if the family doesn't want her to have anything nice. If she does, they seem to resent it, and they make snide remarks. To her face, that is. Behind her back, they're past "snide" and downright nasty.

I guess all this rambling points to one question: Where does "being conservative" become "being a tightwad"?

 

[MrJim]

I read through the other thread~there was a time where I was somewhat like that myself, always going the cheap/bargain route for stuff. I discovered that often it was more expensive in the long run to get the cheaper product. I have a basic rule in most purchases: Comparison shop, toss out the cheapest and most expensive, and buy in the middle (doesn't always work that way, sometimes the cheapest or most expensive is best, but it's a general rule.)

As to greed~possessions become something dealt with between you and God. You certainly can consult with a pastor or close friend for their opinion but I can't stand and judge that you have too much or are a poor steward. People like to do that, but it's not our place. "Sell all you have and give to the poor" works in some situations but we're also charged to care for our families which requires us to "have" some stuff.

You are in an awkward situation that only grace will overcome...oh, and pretty cool you're learning to drive. My wife is 49 and won't learn, but I had a coworker whose wife got her first license at 50 and just goes everywhere now.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Interesting that you mention consulting the pastor, MrJim. It so happens, he's the one who sold us the car I was talking about in the other thread!

 

[MrJim]

Interesting that you mention consulting the pastor, MrJim. It so happens, he's the one who sold us the car I was talking about in the other thread!

 

[desmalia]

It's not what you have, it's where your heart is that matters. God blesses as He sees fit. And while we must be on guard not to become prideful or frivolous, there is nothing wrong with appreciating what God has blessed you with. All of his blessings are not based on whether we deserve them or not. We are sinners and unworthy of any of His blessings. What He gives us is because He IS love. So, enjoy!!

Also, stinginess can certainly be a sin as well because it so often comes from a prideful heart. It's really no different than those who boast over their extravagant things and make others feel bad for not spending top dollar on everything too. Frugality is certainly a good thing when it's about spending wisely and responsibly. But when it becomes a mark of pride or status, there's something very wrong.

My mother struggles with a similar situation as yours. She came from a very poor background and was taught to be frugal. My dad worked hard and over the years moved up in the company and provided well for his family. But even to this day, my mom has a very hard time sending birthday and Christmas presents to her family because they judge her if it's to extravagant. I know her heart. She would never try to rub her circumstances in their faces, and the gifts have never been that expensive. AND I know for a fact that whatever she does send, she still gets on sale for a good price. But that's not how they see it. Nothing she can do about that.

 

[rmw8855]

Enjoy your coat, it sounds wonderful

I don't think it is wrong to have nice things. All blessings come from God so why shouldn't we enjoy them.

The only thing to keep in mind is does it interfere in your relationship with God. If anything becomes more important to you than God then it has become an idol and needs to be dealt with. A good question to ask yourself is "Would I give this up if God asked me too?"

Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I have never associated being conservative with being a tightwad. I do cringe when I see a shirt at the store for $80 dollars when I can see that the quality doesn't justify the price so I won't buy it, but I also don't have a problem spending money to buy a nice piece of clothing that is well made.

 

[CruciFixed]

I can get some good deals from thrift stores. I have a nice pair of Banana Republic khaki pants I got for 4.99! I love thrift stores haha. Does that make me stingy or ghetto?

I don't know I don't go around telling people in a bragging mode. Our circle of family I tell them not to be snide or mean but I tell them because we're all pretty poor and yeah I'm a little embarrassed to tell the world that but I tell my family about deals because I know my advice might help them save where necessary.

I know this much: I don't buy shoes, socks or underwear second hand. Those things I have to buy at a retail or department store because they have to last. If you get a pair of shoes from the thrift store for 3 bucks and they fall apart on you a week later and pay day isn't for another week well then you've got bummy shoes and what can you do? Same for socks and underwear well used underwear gives me the heebs but since socks have to last I don't get them used. Jeans, ts and sweatshirts I don't mind getting them used. Those pants I was mentioning are still in great shape and I got them 4 months ago.

I'm going off on a tangent lol. I'm just saying if you can afford nice things and you want them whose to judge? IF you have the talents to make a beautiful coat and it costs a little more than a thrift store coat then go for it, especially if you've got the money to do so. That way you have a one of a kind and when people ask about it you get a chance to "brag" about your craftiness lol.

I am going to have to go with others on this one:
God blesses whomever he wishes just as He sees fit. Do any of us deserve anything period? That's where we have to rework the way we view ourselves. God loves us and He is love so He gives to us far beyond what we actually deserve. If we got what we deserved none of us would be able to turn a nose up at anyone else. We'd all be-----most likely non existent------but anyhow we'd probably all be in shambles.

I also don't think that if you're a conservative Christian it automatically means you follow some money spending guidelines. You don't have to be financially a conservative to be a conservative Christian.

On either end its not a wise idea to be either too much of a tightwad or spend too much. I think saving and being frugal can be good especially in this economic disaster. Learning to save is always important though. That doesn't mean that every week you have to squeeze your pennies till you pop Lincoln's brain out of his skull.

I guess what this all leads up to is its important to have a good balance of your budget.

 

[desmalia]

Oh, I forgot to mention as well... $40 for a nice jacket that fits you well? That's a steal! I'd love to find something like that. But I don't have the sewing talent that you obviously have. Anyway, it does seem silly to me that anyone would judge you for spending a little bit more for a nice brand new jacket instead of a used one that is worn in places and probably doesn't even fit right.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Thanks, Des, and you're right. Nothing I could find in a thrift shop is likely to fit me.

I wasn't meaning to insult people who shop at thrift stores. Whether by choice or by necessity, there's nothing wrong with it, and I didn't mean to imply that there was. I bought my wedding shoes at the local Goodwill last fall. They appeared brand new, had no visible signs of wear, were the right size and color, and I paid $5.00 for them instead of the $40.00 to $65.00 I would have paid new. I couldn't see paying full price for a pair of shoes I'd wear only for a couple of hours at most--I don't walk well and don't normally wear pumps. But if I hadn't found that bargain, I might have gone ahead and bought new shoes somewhere.

Similarly, I insisted on a used car instead of the new one Mike wanted to get me. Several people, including Mike and my therapist, saw this as family-induced conditioning and challenged me with, "Don't you think you're worth a new car?" I may well be worth a new car, but am I willing to spend the money on one, especially when I am an inexperienced driver? No. There is a difference between "I am not worth it" and "I don't want to spend that amount of money on it." My engagement ring--same thing. It's a cubic zirconia, but it's just as shiny and beautiful as any diamond, so why spend ten times more on a diamond?

It's deliberately going substandard with basic necessities that I don't understand, and that seems to be the general tone of the entire extended family. Someone will casually mention the roast beef they cooked for supper last night, and it will prompt a half-under-the breath remark of, "I wish *I* could afford to eat like that." Message, transparently veiled, is, "Hey, if I'm eating hot dogs, who are you to be eating roast beef?" Nothing wrong with hot dogs either--I'm just questioning expecting everyone else to eat hot dogs too. And the true irony is that the hot dog eater actually has a higher income than the roast beef eater.

Couple this with an oft-reapeated pronouncement of "too good," as in, "Yeah, she's too good to buy a used mattress," spoken in full air of disapproval, in a "what a snotty stuck-up princess she is" tone of voice. "Too good" to buy generic brands when the name brand is better. "Too good" to wear socks full of holes when you can afford to get new ones. The cardinal sin seems to be acting "too good."

Hubby Mike, by contrast, states that there are some things he won't buy used, and a mattress is firmly on that list. You never know who or what might have had whatever kind of mishap in it. Same with underwear.

Now, my grandmother I can excuse. She lived through the Great Depression, and that pretty much says it all. With her it's just a quirk, and at 90+ years old, she's not going to change. In her case it's merely amusing to look at the discrepancy between the way she lives, and the way she can afford to live. She is, many times over, the wealthiest member of the family, in the biggest house, with the greatest amount of assets. But to hear her talk, she's practically destitute. Her house is bulging with broken or worn-out things that are of no value any more, but she will not throw anything away for fear she might need it later. Her pantry is full of rusted, years-out-of-date canned goods that she saves "in case I get snowed in," though it may be the middle of summer, and she lives in the suburban South. Nothing she wears matches. And she layers herself in sweaters, shawls, and blankets rather than turn up the heat in the winter. I understand her behavior is quite typical for someone of her generation, and I don't condemn it, I merely observe it. And yes, by the way, she is being well looked after by her children and grandchildren who live nearby.

 

[Cris413]

Enjoy your coat, it sounds wonderful

I don't think it is wrong to have nice things. All blessings come from God so why shouldn't we enjoy them.

The only thing to keep in mind is does it interfere in your relationship with God. If anything becomes more important to you than God then it has become an idol and needs to be dealt with. A good question to ask yourself is "Would I give this up if God asked me too?"

Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I have never associated being conservative with being a tightwad. I do cringe when I see a shirt at the store for $80 dollars when I can see that the quality doesn't justify the price so I won't buy it, but I also don't have a problem spending money to buy a nice piece of clothing that is well made.

I totally agree with you! It's more about the heart of the matter and being good stewards with everything God blesses us with.

And sometimes...a few extra dollars for quality is being a good steward.

I kinda struggled with the same thing over my new dishwasher...was this an extravagant luxury I could do without... Some people don't even have dishes...or food to put on dishes...

I decided to rejoice in the blessing! Yep....I hugged my new dishwasher and praised the Lord!

 

[CruciFixed]

My father in law is 75 and can live better but we buy his socks because he's afraid to buy new socks or underwear. We bought him a pack of underwear, a pack of t-shirts, and new socks because the man is afraid of going broke. He will wear the same three pairs of underwear forever if he can to penny pinch. He's not wealthy but dang he makes a lot more than us and he won't buy himself new anything. LOL

But I knew you weren't making fun of anyone. I just wanted to make sure its not considered too stingy that we still shop at the Salvation Army lol...

I won't buy: mattresses, pillows, underwear, bras, or socks used. Sometimes like you said a good pair of shoes you can get at the thrift store but usually I avoid shoes at the one I shop at because they typically don't look in good condition. Typically I buy shoes brand new from like K-Mart and then if I dare shop at Wal-Mart I get people telling me how I'm supporting child labor =\ So......I feel bad about the kids who have to work like slaves in other countries. I just can't afford 50 dollar union made jeans.

 

[CruciFixed]

I totally agree with you! It's more about the heart of the matter and being good stewards with everything God blesses us with.

And sometimes...a few extra dollars for quality is being a good steward.

I kinda struggled with the same thing over my new dishwasher...was this an extravagant luxury I could do without... Some people don't even have dishes...or food to put on dishes...

I decided to rejoice in the blessing! Yep....I hugged my new dishwasher and praised the Lord!

Sure a dishwasher is something you can do without. But does it make you a bad person for having one? Shoot if I could afford one I'd be out at the store tomorrow looking lol. I don't want to do dishes by hand anymore.

Doesn't mean we should be made to feel guilty about situations we have very little control over.

Maybe if everyone gave up their lifestyles (Even those shoving thriftstore bargains in people's faces as if they are some how better than someone) and moved to other countries to help then maybe we could end world hunger.

 

[Cris413]

Sure a dishwasher is something you can do without. But does it make you a bad person for having one? Shoot if I could afford one I'd be out at the store tomorrow looking lol. I don't want to do dishes by hand anymore.

Doesn't mean we should be made to feel guilty about situations we have very little control over.

Maybe if everyone gave up their lifestyles (Even those shoving thriftstore bargains in people's faces as if they are some how better than someone) and moved to other countries to help then maybe we could end world hunger.

Well...I certainly remember my dire straights...not even having home to wash dishes in by hand. Looking at a can of peas and a box of mac cheese and calculating how many meals I could make...then to get home and realize...I didn't have a can opener for the peas!...

Everytime I see a can with a pull-top lid....I think...wow...great idea!

Most of my life...everything I owned was given to me by others...and I mean EVERYTHING....wonderful folks God sent my way in His awesome providence...who just noticed...hey...you don't have any furniture...I know this guy looking to get rid of his sofa...hey...I have some old dishes I'm not using...



One time...a friend of mine gave me an entire livingroom suite...sofa, loveseat, coffee table, end tables and entertainment center that was not even a year old!...She was moving out of state...and just gave it to me.

And when I had to move out of state...I gave it all to someone else...pass those blessings on!


LOL...I remember my last apartment...my livingroom consisted of a lawnchair and a crate for a table...my "throw rug" was a large piece of cardboard! (I didn't want the legs of the chair to harm the carpet)...I had a bed and that was about it....

Bit by bit...God's providence was so good! It's not about having what we want...it's about being thankful for what we have...be it a new sofa...or a lawnchair and a crate sitting on a piece of cardboard...

It just amazes me sometimes...when some consider...that just because a person is conservative that we've never experience hardship or loss or been in times of need...that we're all greedy and selfish with no compassion for anyone else and born with silver spoons in our mouths...(thinking of a comment made to me in another forum)

Anyway.......I think I've just moved into the random babbling phase of my post...

All of us...I'm sure are thankful and appreciative of everything God has provided...be it in times of want or times of plenty all to His praise and honor and glory!

I think we all know...that everything we have could be gone in a blink for whatever reason...so enjoy while you have it...and continue to praise God even when you don't....and maybe even more so!

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

^^I've been homeless and foodless too, Cris.

Just a quick fact to point out--"conservative" was the word my father used to describe his spending habits, when it is becoming increasingly obvious that what he meant to say was "miserly." I wondered about his use of the term, and I thought, who better to ask than a group of conservatives?

I still remember shoe-shopping at K-mart right before school one year. We ranged in age from 15 (me) to 10. My 14 year old brother grumbled on the way into the store that we were "probably going to get stuck with the five dollar specials," to which my father angrily repiled, "The only way anybody's getting any five dollar specials is if they don't have any TWO dollar specials!" The shoes I ended up with cost eight dollars, and did not last the entire school year.

I mentioned in the other thread, and may not have said it in this one--my father had a deep conviction that we should not have any advantage he himself didn't have growing up. It's as if there was a little boy inside of him protesting, "That's not FAIR! I didn't get to have that!" So, even though he could have afforded decent shoes that would hold up the entire school year, he would buy the cheapest possible, regardless of how badly he was setting us up to be harassed at school, and turn a deaf ear to our tales of being bullied.

He also told us what to order in restaurants. Not, "Keep it under X amount of dollars," which I can understand, but "I don't care if chicken nuggets are the same price. You're getting a hamburger, and that's that, because I said so." This could be another personality quirk altogether. Is it?

 

[Cris413]

God bless ya LBF...and praise God for the blessings and His grace and mercy....ALL the time.

I was just thinking...how proudful my post might have sounded...like I'm "all that" for the way I handled those times...

well...I didn't always handle them gracefully. There were many times when I felt like God let me down or wasn't keeping His "end of the deal" and such...and sometimes...I got downright angry with Him...and even walked away from Him a time or two because I thought He certainly wasn't keeping His promises and I might as well take matters back into my own hands...

How great is our God that He allows us to see...that even in our worse times...He was still right there...His grace IS sufficient and He does provide EVERYTHING we need. That even when we can't see it...great is His faithfulness!

 

[desmalia]

God bless ya LBF...and praise God for the blessings and His grace and mercy....ALL the time.

I was just thinking...how proudful my post might have sounded...like I'm "all that" for the way I handled those times...

well...I didn't always handle them gracefully. There were many times when I felt like God let me down or wasn't keeping His "end of the deal" and such...and sometimes...I got downright angry with Him...and even walked away from Him a time or two because I thought He certainly wasn't keeping His promises and I might as well take matters back into my own hands...

How great is our God that He allows us to see...that even in our worse times...He was still right there...His grace IS sufficient and He does provide EVERYTHING we need. That even when we can't see it...great is His faithfulness!

I can relate very well to what you said there, sis.


As for me, I can be very proud of finding a good deal on something. In fact I really don't enjoy shopping at all unless I do come across a fantastic deal on something I already need. (Not easy to find in Canada!). But even when I do find a really great deal (whether it be at a thrift store, department store, etc.) I cannot imagine ever wanting to make someone feel bad for paying full price for something or even getting something more expensive. I enjoy my purchases immensely more if I get them for a fantastic price. But that's personal preference.

I have a relative who recently bought herself a new-ish BMW convertible from some cash she came into. Considering she couldn't afford to even fix up her old car when it broke down again, I felt it was not a smart purchase. She got it as a treat for herself because she "never does anything nice for herself". Problem is, she's got kids to feed, and no way to pay for this car when it breaks down. I strongly recommended she buy something that will be easier to take care of down the road. (Still sporty and fun, but at least reasonable to keep running!). I'm all for buying something newer because reliability is so important. But that car will cause her no end of grief and I suspect she'll be relying on the 'kindness' of strangers to pay her repair bills again. My problem is not with her having something nice and fun to enjoy. It's that I don't think it was a wise decision at this point in her life, and I worry about the consequences for her down the road.

 

[CruciFixed]

Well...I certainly remember my dire straights...not even having home to wash dishes in by hand. Looking at a can of peas and a box of mac cheese and calculating how many meals I could make...then to get home and realize...I didn't have a can opener for the peas!...

Everytime I see a can with a pull-top lid....I think...wow...great idea!

Most of my life...everything I owned was given to me by others...and I mean EVERYTHING....wonderful folks God sent my way in His awesome providence...who just noticed...hey...you don't have any furniture...I know this guy looking to get rid of his sofa...hey...I have some old dishes I'm not using...



One time...a friend of mine gave me an entire livingroom suite...sofa, loveseat, coffee table, end tables and entertainment center that was not even a year old!...She was moving out of state...and just gave it to me.

And when I had to move out of state...I gave it all to someone else...pass those blessings on!


LOL...I remember my last apartment...my livingroom consisted of a lawnchair and a crate for a table...my "throw rug" was a large piece of cardboard! (I didn't want the legs of the chair to harm the carpet)...I had a bed and that was about it....

Bit by bit...God's providence was so good! It's not about having what we want...it's about being thankful for what we have...be it a new sofa...or a lawnchair and a crate sitting on a piece of cardboard...

It just amazes me sometimes...when some consider...that just because a person is conservative that we've never experience hardship or loss or been in times of need...that we're all greedy and selfish with no compassion for anyone else and born with silver spoons in our mouths...(thinking of a comment made to me in another forum)

Anyway.......I think I've just moved into the random babbling phase of my post...

All of us...I'm sure are thankful and appreciative of everything God has provided...be it in times of want or times of plenty all to His praise and honor and glory!

I think we all know...that everything we have could be gone in a blink for whatever reason...so enjoy while you have it...and continue to praise God even when you don't....and maybe even more so!

I hope you don't think I was coming down on you. I was just saying there's a lot of things we could live without but we don't have to and its not a commandment for us to live without things we have just because someone else doesnt have it. Trust me if I had the ability to afford a dishwasher long term I'd be all over it.

I definitely wasn't saying you are bad for having it. I've never personally been without food or dishes. I've been pretty poor and down in the dumps but never literally and I've never had to go without THANK the LORD.

I was just pointing out "Yeah we can live without our homes and clothes. Sure we'd find a way to survive but if we choose not to give them up are we bad? No."

So I wasn't comin down on you for having a dishwasher.

I am gonna say almost everything I have was given to me. I am blessed to have people in my life who give to me what we have. My mom gave me 1800 dollars for a car. My dad has flown me down to his home twice in two years to hang out with my brothers when I couldn't afford to pay for it myself. MY father in law has fed my family in the past when we had no grocery money. So Thank God for family! Thank God for all of His blessings. He sure has helped us through some tough times.

 

[Cris413]

I hope you don't think I was coming down on you. I was just saying there's a lot of things we could live without but we don't have to and its not a commandment for us to live without things we have just because someone else doesnt have it. Trust me if I had the ability to afford a dishwasher long term I'd be all over it.

I definitely wasn't saying you are bad for having it. I've never personally been without food or dishes. I've been pretty poor and down in the dumps but never literally and I've never had to go without THANK the LORD.

I was just pointing out "Yeah we can live without our homes and clothes. Sure we'd find a way to survive but if we choose not to give them up are we bad? No."

So I wasn't comin down on you for having a dishwasher.

I am gonna say almost everything I have was given to me. I am blessed to have people in my life who give to me what we have. My mom gave me 1800 dollars for a car. My dad has flown me down to his home twice in two years to hang out with my brothers when I couldn't afford to pay for it myself. MY father in law has fed my family in the past when we had no grocery money. So Thank God for family! Thank God for all of His blessings. He sure has helped us through some tough times.

Oh no, no, no sweetness......didn't even enter my mind for a sec...just got me thinking about things is all...little trip down memory lane so to speak....and it wasn't all that long ago...really.

A few days ago...in the theology forum... I think it...some guy said something to me (because I'm conservative) that he hoped I never had the misfortune to be hungry, or hurt, or sick or suffer loss kinda thingy....so he just assumed because I'm conservative...I have no idea what it means to be in need....:o


Most of my life has been pretty unstable...I'd reap and sow...and lose it all...start all over again...lose it all...some times were bad...some times were worse...and some times...for a moment or two...I did OK....

I don't think God expects us to be perfect...I do think He expects us to learn though...and when we have the times of plenty...we're even more grateful...because we remember the times of need....and for me...I totally understand the times of plenty can be fleeting indeed!

But more importantly...we should be even more grateful in the times of need...because that's God...right there...supplying every need and His grace IS sufficient. IF God brings you to it....He'll see you through it!

For the first time in my life...since God blessed me with my husband 5 years ago...I've had really the only stability I've ever known...for this length of time anyway...and I am oh so grateful....

So...like....we could lose everything tomorrow...and I know it will be OK because...even though I may not have always seen it in those times of need...God was always right there with me....

I might not have known it then...but I know it now...and will totally trust that in the future....whatever may come.

 

[CruciFixed]

Okay good.

Yeah well I'm conservative too and when liberals say "I hope you never have the misfortune of XYZ" what they are usually doing in my experience is defending people who only want a hand out and never want to try. They don't know your situation so they assume its because you've never struggled.

For example: When the foodstamp/medicaid debate comes up people assume that because we're conservative we must also be rich. I never said nobody can use my tax dollars. In fact I am happy to part with my money to feed a family or so that a child can see a doctor that's not my gripe. My gripe isn't "Well we earned this money fair and square and nobody else is allowed to it" becuz in the first place I did not do anything on my own. I know that even when I am busting my butt at work that I'm not alone. God provided for me things like skills and certain abilities and no money that I earn is ALL MINE. I'm not greedy and I am more than willing to part with my money because in the end nothing really belongs to me or anyone else on this Earth it's all God's He created it all.. But if you say "I don't think everyone should be qualified for Medicaid/Foodstamps just becuz they are poor." That's when the "You're fortunuate to always have but not everyone has. You're a conservative so you have no heart" argument comes around.

I have NO problem with people in need getting food stamps or medical care. THAT is not my gripe. My gripe is people who want to be on it for 10 years or who want to have 12 kids and never improve themselves....etc.etc.

But they take that to the extreme and say "WELL YOU MUST NOT KNOW WHAT STARVING IS LIKE."

People love to play the emotional card.That was my favorite debate tactic when I was a liberal. So I've said it all heard it all. I no longer agree with it all though.

Actually the more I think about it the more I see government assistance as almost like a slave hold. I can't explain it but maybe I'm being crazy. I think it really isn't a stepping stone like people say......

But that's for another thread all together.

 

[Cris413]

I can't help but consider...even the worse times I've ever experienced...many people all over the world would consider "good" times indeed.