Is it Ever Okay to Kill

[apache1]

I can't see any way of reading this except "I don't care what Jesus said, I know better."

I certainly don't claim to know more than Jesus does, but I certainly claim to know at least as much as you, and don't really care for your self-righteous "advice".

 

[Max S Cherry]

Well yes, if you mean giving up ones life by putting it on the line. The bad guy may win afterall . . . the courts or the media may take exception to some element of justified self/other defense and one may be crucified like Zimmerman. There is always risk in not simply rolling over and letting evil win. There is no risk in the pacifist's route, only the certainty that evil will triumph and that God will turn His nose up at vain self righteous sacrifice.

Thank you for responding and sharing your thoughts with us. I disagree with you in regards to the pacifist's route, and I see tremendous risk in standing up to violent people whatever your view of pacifism.

If a frightened citizen screams out for help, is loaning them a gun and a qualified shooter not satisfying this verse? Surely the verse does not suggest assisting evil doers.

We cannot be accountable for the actions of others, but I believe we are held to count for what we do. I think there is a major difference between the two.

Here we agree and where that is possible, it is a moral imperative. Where it isn't possible, a threat to life or great bodily harm, it is a moral imperative to resist. You wouldn't say to a woman about to be raped "just lay there and take it honey, it is the Christian thing to do", surely? The risk of potentially fatal STDs is too high, the affront too great, it is in a category Jesus was not addressing in the quoted Scripture & trying to apply that Scripture to that higher category of violence is dishonest at best and the excuse used by predators to justify predation at worst.

I have never suggested that anyone should just "just lay there and take it," but resistance is not killing. There are ways of resisting, and yes, they may not be as effective as killing an attacker. It is just that way some times.

No matter what micro factoids are snipped and taken out of context, the message of the Gospel is not "to be a good Christian you must pawn your personal responsibility for self righteousness".

I agree. I believe to be a good Christian one must follows one's convictions, but I also believe that we can learn from Christ's example. If we do not learn from Him, I do not know where to look for guidance. I find nothing in Christ's example that justifies killing to save anyone's life, reduce suffering, or putting an end to evil.

 

[Max S Cherry]

Well, if I hadn't stood up for myself, I would have been a bullied "doormat", no you don't have to stand tall, just stand up. No, don't start any trouble or be anywhere, if possible, where trouble follows you, but then again if it happens, prepare for it. On a side note, I don't know why anyone that intentionally does not intend to follow through if a last resort would have firearms to start with. In a scenario with firearm trying to stop rape or attack or robbery or whatever: 1) Pointing firearm at attacker, he may simply give up or run off 2) He may call your bluff. If he calls your bluff, you better be damn ready to kill, if necessay. If you don't, he will disarm you, not only you will be dead, you have lunatic with a firearm he can use on someone else, thence theoretically could use on another non-Christian who's soul isn't saved (or more). Wanting peace and non-violence is admirable and what everyone should strive for, but not always possible. I have had to defend myself more than once, and also my family before, and I un-abashedly don't feel any guilt about it. That's between me and God, and no I haven't every YET had to kill anyone. With extreme overboard "pacifism" I've seen written about, their are probably some on this forum that would, say, an extreme case, their daughter was raped in the behind, but she were to fight off and hurt or kill the sodomite, they would spank or whip the same said behind for having the audacity to fight off the dirtbag, because she did not turn the other cheek and did not submit to father's authority, i.e. violence meets violence.

First, these "dirtbags" are nothing worse than a sinner, and they do not deserve your mercy any more than you deserve Christ's mercy. Christ was willing to die for you (a sinner), and I believe He set an example. You can choose to follow His example or not.

Secondly, do you think Christ was a "bullied doormat?" I do. His earthly life was one of abuse and suffering, and He was perfect, without sin. Do you suppose that you are more deserving of not being a "bullied doormat" than Christ?

Finally, the pride you exhibit in most of your posts is disturbing. I do not believe that arrogance is a trait in which a Christian should be pleased to possess. Ultimately, a Christian's role in this life is to spread the love of Christ to unbelievers, and pride and arrogance are usually not appreciated by anyone.

 

[apache1]

Thank you for responding and sharing your thoughts with us. I disagree with you in regards to the pacifist's route, and I see tremendous risk in standing up to violent people whatever your view of pacifism.



We cannot be accountable for the actions of others, but I believe we are held to count for what we do. I think there is a major difference between the two.



I have never suggested that anyone should just "just lay there and take it," but resistance is not killing. There are ways of resisting, and yes, they may not be as effective as killing an attacker. It is just that way some times.



I agree. I believe to be a good Christian one must follows one's convictions, but I also believe that we can learn from Christ's example. If we do not learn from Him, I do not know where to look for guidance. I find nothing in Christ's example that justifies killing to save anyone's life, reduce suffering, or putting an end to evil.[/quote By all means, if being run over by a Mack truck is your thing, by all means indulge yourself.

 

[apache1]

First, these "dirtbags" are nothing worse than a sinner, and they do not deserve your mercy any more than you deserve Christ's mercy. Christ was willing to die for you (a sinner), and I believe He set an example. You can choose to follow His example or not.

Secondly, do you think Christ was a "bullied doormat?" I do. His earthly life was one of abuse and suffering, and He was perfect, without sin. Do you suppose that you are more deserving of not being a "bullied doormat" than Christ?

Finally, the pride you exhibit in most of your posts is disturbing. I do not believe that arrogance is a trait in which a Christian should be pleased to possess. Ultimately, a Christian's role in this life is to spread the love of Christ to unbelievers, and pride and arrogance are usually not appreciated by anyone.

I could not really care less what you think of my "pride and arrogance", doesn't sear my conscience in the least. That's between me and God, not between me and you or anyone else, so if I come off "prideful and arrogant", proudly and loudly so be it!! I find your posts of "admonishing" people to be defenseless even more disturbing. Loudly and proudly I write that.

 

[Max S Cherry]

I could not really care less what you think of my "pride and arrogance", doesn't sear my conscience in the least. That's between me and God, not between me and you or anyone else, so if I come off "prideful and arrogant", proudly and loudly so be it!! I find your posts of "admonishing" people to be defenseless even more disturbing. Loudly and proudly I write that.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[ebia]

Well yes, if you mean giving up ones life by putting it on the line. The bad guy may win afterall . . . the courts or the media may take exception to some element of justified self/other defense and one may be crucified like Zimmerman. There is always risk in not simply rolling over and letting evil win. There is no risk in the pacifist's route, only the certainty that evil will triumph and that God will turn His nose up at vain self righteous sacrifice.

Another person who doesn't know the difference between pacifism and doormat and therefore attacks a strawman.

If a frightened citizen screams out for help, is loaning them a gun and a qualified shooter not satisfying this verse?

No.

Here we agree and where that is possible, it is a moral imperative. Where it isn't possible, a threat to life or great bodily harm, it is a moral imperative to resist.

Jesus didn't make that qualifier.

"I'll follow Jesus - except when its too hard"?

You wouldn't say to a woman about to be raped "just lay there and take it honey, it is the Christian thing to do", surely?

Pacifism is not doing nothing.

 

[apache1]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

You are most welcome, my kind sir

 

[apache1]

Another person who doesn't know the difference between pacifism and doormat and therefore attacks a strawman.


No.


Jesus didn't make that qualifier.

"I'll follow Jesus - except when its too hard"?


Pacifism is not doing nothing.

O.k., one pacifist that was definitely "agin killin" was an old Tennessee boy named Alvin York, later to be Sargeant York in World War I. He was a very devout Christian, was drafted, wanted to be a conscientious objector, but the option was not given him. Anyway, in battle became greatest soldier hero of WWI, did what he had to do, was not necessarily proud of the fact. In fact, he became a reluctant hero, did not want attention nor did he brag about the fact, simply did what he had to do. If he had not stepped up when he had to, he and his entire outfit would have been needlessly slaughtered. He and just a few fellow soldiers captured 200 or so German soldiers (who themselves might have been killed if battle had been more prolonged). This is one case of a pacifist who did what he had to to.

 

[Hawisher]

Oh, that's right! When Jesus was about to be executed, he totally let Peter slice and dice his way through the people arresting him! Because it was, y'know, to save his life.

Oh, wait. He didn't. Actually, he rebuked Peter for trying to do just that.

 

[apache1]

First, these "dirtbags" are nothing worse than a sinner, and they do not deserve your mercy any more than you deserve Christ's mercy. Christ was willing to die for you (a sinner), and I believe He set an example. You can choose to follow His example or not.

Secondly, do you think Christ was a "bullied doormat?" I do. His earthly life was one of abuse and suffering, and He was perfect, without sin. Do you suppose that you are more deserving of not being a "bullied doormat" than Christ?

Finally, the pride you exhibit in most of your posts is disturbing. I do not believe that arrogance is a trait in which a Christian should be pleased to possess. Ultimately, a Christian's role in this life is to spread the love of Christ to unbelievers, and pride and arrogance are usually not appreciated by anyone.

Did you ever watch Looney Toons? I remember a Bugs Bunny episode where he and Yosemite Sam were campaigning against each other. Bugs was dressed up like Teddy Roosevelt and said "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Yosemite Sam responded by saying "I speak loud and carrry a BIGGER STICK". He bangs Bugs Bunny on top of the head and says "I use it, too". Point? I prefer speaking softly (no, I usually don't speak softly, but...), but if I have to, use the stick, but ONLY IF I HAVE TOO.

 

[seeking Christ]

Well, people keep writing as though the only non-violent approach is to be a doormat so I thought I'd reflect the other side of that coin. If non-violence equates to doormat, violence equates to psychopath.

The point of "turn the other cheek" and the other two case-studies that go with it is that they are non-optional instructions to find imaginative and effective non-violent solutions to problems. "I had no choice but to shoot him..." isn't allowed as an option by Jesus. If that seems hard - well, following Jesus is hard.

Packing heat is THE most effective non-violent option to stop a serious threat, dead in it's tracks. At least in this Country, most actual use of guns (aside from target practice) a shot never gets fired and a defender wins, peacefully.

 

[seeking Christ]

I'm of the opinion it is only ever acceptable for a Christian to kill to save the life of another (not one's self).

If this were persecution for the sake of Christ, you would be correct.

 

[seeking Christ]

Did Jesus not rebuke Peter for defending him with violence?

Cannot be said that Jesus' rebuke was of violence generally, seeing as He also admonished His Disciples to buy a sword if they didn't have one. This is a very specific rebuke you refer to, with a very specific cause. Plus, He had already told the Disciples what was going to happen.

 

[Hawisher]

Did you ever watch Looney Toons? I remember a Bugs Bunny episode where he and Yosemite Sam were campaigning against each other. Bugs was dressed up like Teddy Roosevelt and said "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Yosemite Sam responded by saying "I speak loud and carrry a BIGGER STICK". He bangs Bugs Bunny on top of the head and says "I use it, too". Point? I prefer speaking softly (no, I usually don't speak softly, but...), but if I have to, use the stick, but ONLY IF I HAVE TOO.

Oh, that's right! When Jesus was about to be executed, he totally let Peter slice and dice his way through the people arresting him! Because it was, y'know, to save his life.

Oh, wait. He didn't. Actually, he rebuked Peter for trying to do just that.

If this were persecution for the sake of Christ, you would be correct.

Hm?

 

[Hawisher]

Cannot be said that Jesus' rebuke was of violence generally, seeing as He also admonished His Disciples to buy a sword if they didn't have one. This is a very specific rebuke you refer to, with a very specific cause. Plus, He had already told the Disciples what was going to happen.

As you said, having a weapon is a deterrent.

 

[seeking Christ]

You wouldn't say to a woman about to be raped "just lay there and take it honey, it is the Christian thing to do", surely? The risk of potentially fatal STDs is too high, the affront too great, it is in a category Jesus was not addressing in the quoted Scripture & trying to apply that Scripture to that higher category of violence is dishonest at best and the excuse used by predators to justify predation at worst.

Valid point! Jesus simply wasn't speaking about how to conduct oneself on the road to Jericho

 

[seeking Christ]

Secondly, do you think Christ was a "bullied doormat?" I do. His earthly life was one of abuse and suffering, and He was perfect, without sin.

He was not at all a bullied doormat! He spoke before the rulers who were to judge Him, and they could find no fault.

Have you missed the element of the Gospel that is Him laying down His life willingly?

 

[apache1]

Another person who doesn't know the difference between pacifism and doormat and therefore attacks a strawman.


No.


Jesus didn't make that qualifier.

"I'll follow Jesus - except when its too hard"?


Pacifism is not doing nothing.

I'd rather be a Strawman (or Scarecrow) or a Tin Man than the Cowardly Lion. Yo-ee-oh, yohh-oh

 

[Hawisher]

I'd rather be a Strawman (or Scarecrow) or a Tin Man than the Cowardly Lion. Yo-ee-oh, yohh-oh

Well, now you're just trolling.