Is it Ever OK to Lie? Is It a Question Involving Priorities?

Clare73 said:

Review the thread for this information.

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OK. But it came up and I started at the beginning and saw no answers to that.

Regardless, there is no highest moral law.
Just because you equate something to Jesus lying, does not mean you are factually correct.
Satan is t he Father of Lies. No thanks.

Peace and Blessings.

Clare73 said:

Did God lie to Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23), did Jesus lie to the apostles (Jn 7:6-10)?

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Clare, I am disappointed in you. You are one of the more mature commenters on CF. For the sake of the weaker Christians please tone it down.

You seem to transgress one of the basic of all hermeneutical principles: The clear passages of Scripture interpret the obscure passages...along with the analogy of faith.

Clear passage Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Obscure passage Ex 4 and John 7.

Let's not go down this road of the theodicy....Christians are to defend against the theodicy....you seem to raise and promote it.
please think and pray about this.

Clare73 said:

God disagrees with you.

See Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25.

Did God lie to Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23), did Jesus lie to the apostle

Clare73 said:

God disagrees with you.

See Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25.

Did God lie to Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23), did Jesus lie to the apostles (Jn 7:6-10)?

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s (Jn 7:6-10)?

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Ex 1.17 - 21
now you are speaking for God and filling in scripture and saying the midwives Lied. And you can say this because you know for a fact that what the midwives said was not true? That God did not make it true that the mothers delivered quickly. To say that God told people to lie, you would do well to have much more than circumstantial evidence. Because now, per you, God is the Author of lies. He is not.

Still, if we continue on with this new revelation from God. Not only were they spared by their act of lying, so that they did not have to kill babies, they were rewarded for lying. Quite handsomely too. Lying is looking better and more profitable is it not?

John 7:6-12
Not sure what you are aiming at here. The only deception or lying talked about here is in v12. But that is about murmurings. Murmerings do not have a positive connotation. They were always accusing Jesus of this or that. None of which makes the accusations true.
[Jhn 7:12 KJV] 12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.
Many accused Jesus of lying. Those people are not a source of record for truth.

James 2.25
You are misapplying James. Start with Romans first.
[Rom 4:1-3 KJV] 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The whole book of James is about works before men. Not before God. How you stand before other men. How works can demonstrate your faith before men. But never before God. We already learned in Romans that Works can not ever ever ever justify you before God.

You are leading people down a path of untruth and it is not good.

Let's also look at another lie intended to save. Because of a lack of trust in God.

[Gen 20:1-9 KJV] 1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar. 2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She [is] my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou [art but] a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she [is] a man's wife. 4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5 Said he not unto me, She [is] my sister? and she, even she herself said, He [is] my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7 Now therefore restore the man [his] wife; for he [is] a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore [her] not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that [are] thine. 8 Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

Here we see a man, lying to save his own skin. But instead his lie sends his wife to another man. Notice that God stops Abimelech from sinning. Though Abraham and Sarah already have sinned by lying. Then Abimelech justly accuses Abraham of bringing sin upon the king's nation and says he was wrong to do so. And Abimelech was correct on both points.

I am concerned that you heard a talk or teaching on lying and someone inferred that it could have been OK or even good to lie in these times. That is not true. Lying is always wrong, not justified in front of God, and is done to avoid consequences or in lack of trust in God.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

So you are actually saying "thus saith the lord." Wow.

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Indeed. . .thus saith the word of God written in Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25..

To be correct, you must demonstrate that Ex, Jn and Jas are not the word of God.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

Clare, I am disappointed in you. You are one of the more mature commenters on CF. For the sake of the weaker Christians please tone it down.
You seem to transgress one of the basic of all hermeneutical principles: The clear passages of Scripture interpret the obscure passages...along with the analogy of faith.

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It's about intellectual honesty.
I don't see Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25 as "obscure," but rather as plain statements, and regard it as intellectual dishonesty to obscure them.
Likewise, I see mitigation of a plain text to obscurity as a slippery slope, while I understand basic hermeneutics to be taking Scripture at its word; e.g., Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10, Jas 2:25, and harmonizing it with the rest of Scripture without having to mitigate any of it to obsurity.

I am in agreement with:

RDKirk said:

What we see in scripture is that God is a warrior, and He does practice tactical deception in combat.

A soldier is expected to deceive the enemy but be completely truthful with his commander and comrades.

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Clare73 said:

It's about intellectual honesty.
I don't see Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10 and Jas 2:25 as "obscure," but rather as plain statements, and regard it as intellectual dishonesty to obscure them.
Likewise, I see mitigation of a plain text to obscurity as a slippery slope, while I understand basic hermeneutics to be taking Scripture at its word; e.g., Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10, Jas 2:25, and harmonizing it with the rest of Scripture without having to mitigate any of it to obsurity.

I am in agreement with:

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Hermeneutics says to take the most simple to help understand the less simple. You are doing the opposite.

Peace and Blessings

RDKirk said:

I will agree with you on this one.

What we see in scripture is that God is a warrior, and He does practice tactical deception in combat.

A soldier is expected to deceive the enemy but be completely truthful with his commander and comrades.

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So we are like Muslims now? Lie to your enemy, but truth to your friends?
Are we not supposed to do unto our enemy good? Even the heathens give truth to friends.

Analogies usually break down nearly immediately. Which is why scripture is best. We are not talking about men. We are talking about the nature of God and if Lies are part of His nature. They are not. They are part of man's nature. Analogies of man applied to God are Never accurate.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

Hermeneutics says to take the most simple to help understand the less simple. You are doing the opposite.

Peace and Blessings

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Reconciliation is not about more and less, it's about agreement with all Scripture, where both "more" and "less" are in agreement with all Scripture, not just each other.

TPop said:

So we are like Muslims now? Lie to your enemy, but truth to your friends?
Are we not supposed to do unto our enemy good? Even the heathens give truth to friends.

Analogies usually break down nearly immediately. Which is why scripture is best. We are not talking about men. We are talking about the nature of God and if Lies are part of His nature. They are not. They are part of man's nature. Analogies of man applied to God are Never accurate.

Peace and Blessings

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Not everything heathens do is a sin for Christians.

And, no, we don't always do good for our enemies. You would not, for instance, set aside ammunition for your enemy in case he runs out while shooting Christians or light his torch if it goes out while he's burning Christians.

If giving him the truth would only facilitate his crime, do not give him the truth.

RDKirk said:

Not everything heathens do is a sin for Christians.

And, no, we don't always do good for our enemies. You would not, for instance, set aside ammunition for your enemy in case he runs out while shooting Christians or light his torch if it goes out while he's burning Christians.

If giving him the truth would only facilitate his crime, do not give him the truth.

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False equivalencies in many of your posts.

Because one can speak a lie does not mean one must speak a lie.

Peace and Blessings

Ain't Zwinglian said:

Clare, I am disappointed in you.

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I do not like hearing that.

Ain't Zwinglian said:

You are one of the more mature commenters on CF. For the sake of the weaker Christians please tone it down.
You seem to transgress one of the basic of all hermeneutical principles: The clear passages of Scripture interpret the obscure passages...along with the analogy of faith.

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I don't see Ex 1:17-21, Jas 2:25 as obscure, but as self evident, as is Nu 23:19.

It seems to me that reconciling Scripture according to clear Biblical principles--e.g., Nu 23:19 according to Ex 1:17-21, Jas 2:25--is better for the weaker Christians than is mitigating the plain text of Ex 1:17-21, Jas 2:25 for the sake of Nu 23:19.

And then there is Jn 7:6-10.
Does "hermeneutic" mean or require that we mitigate any text?

Neither Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10, Jas 2:25 nor Nu 23:19 must be mitigated in order to reconcile them.
All can be taken at their full meaning and still be in full agreement.

And that's not to mention all all those contra-Biblical arguments introduced to settle the supposed conflict of the texts, as are in post #43.
Are not those contra-Biblical arguments a greater problem for weaker Christians than the problematic Biblical texts under discussion?

How is mitigating the meaning of texts more Biblical than taking them at their full meaning?

Ain't Zwinglian said:

Let's not go down this road of the theodicy....Christians are to defend against the theodicy....you seem to raise and promote it.
please think and pray about this.

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Would not theodicy (vindication of God) be the one who mitigates texts regarding God to make them less "offensive" and more palatable, rather than the one who takes Biblical texts at their word, letting them speak for themselves in reconciliation with those other texts which they find to be more agreeable?
I'm so sorry we do not agree on this.

Clare73 said:

I do not like hearing that.

I hear you, but. . .

I have often noticed the "practice of mitigation" of particular texts in reconciling them to what seem to be opposing texts.
I have also noticed that doubters of Scripture are sometimes more intellectually honest in regard to the texts of Scripture than are believers of Scripture.

The Holy Spirit gives my intellectual honesty to take Scripture at its word, and not to tone it down or to mitigate it to make it more palatable (to weaker Christians).
It requires me to reconcile Scripture taken at its word with all other Scripture, not allowing the mitigating of plain text.
I also see that kind of reconciliation; e.g., between Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10, Jas 2:25 and the proscription of lying (Ex 20:16), as authoritative in relation to one another. . .and have expressed that authority as "trumping of one over another."

I do not see "hermeneutic" as meaning or requiring that we mitigate any text.

Neither Ex 1:17-21, Jn 7:6-10, Jas 2:25 nor Nu 23:19 must be mitigated in order to reconcile them.
Both can be taken at their full meaning and still be in agreement.

Likewise, I have found that mitigating God's truth causes all sorts of arguments to be introduced to settle the matter;
e.g., did God lie to Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23), did Jesus lie to the apostles (Jn 7:6-10)?

And I see those arguments as a greater problem for weaker Christians than the texts under discussion.

I say letting the Scriptures say what they say without clipping their wings is the most effective way for all to deal with the Scriptures.

Who is doing theodicy (vindication of God), the one who mitigates texts regarding God to make them less "offensive" and more palatable, or the one who takes Biblical texts at their word, letting them speak for themselves in reconciliation with those texts they find more agreeable?
Which is actually more Biblically profitable for weak Christians, mitigation or reconciliation?

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Theodicy is defined as a theological construct that attempts to vindicate God in response to the problem of evil that appears inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

Theodicy is defined as a theological construct that attempts to vindicate God in response to the problem of evil that appears inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God.

Pealace and Blessings

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Agreed. . .the issue here is not omnipotence nor benevolence.
It is morality--law keeping, sin--by lying in the preservation of the lives of Moses, the spies and Jesus in Ex 1:17-21, Jas 2:25 and Jn 7:6-10. Let's not try to mitigate the texts.

Clare73 said:

Agreed. . .the issue here is not omnipotence nor benevolence.
It is morality--law keeping, sin--by lying in the preservation of the lives of Moses, the spies and Jesus in Ex 1:17-21, Jas 2:25 and Jn 7:6-10. Let's not try to mitigate the texts.

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Hi there

Thought I'd weigh in on the scriptures posted.

John7.6-10
Throughout John this phrase pops up "His hour had not yet come", he says it to Mary (John 2:4) then throughout the book to others (John 7:6, 8; John 8:20) until his hour does finally come (John 12:23, 27). This passage points to the same... He was on nobody's timetable but His own. Not his mother, not his brothers, but the Father. Sovereignly in control of the redemption plan. When He said He was not going, it wasn't a lie.. it wasn't time, the hour was not yet come so He didn't go. When He went later it was time.
‭
‭‭John 7:8-9
Go up to the feast yourselves; I am not going up to this feast, because My time has not yet fully arrived.” having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.

As for the midwives and Rahab

They feared God, more than Pharoah. This speaks volumes about their faith. The same with Rahab. She feared Israel's God more than the king of Jericho.
Also this was during a time God was revealing Himself to Israel and the nations. The midwives and Rahab were not under the Mosaic law of God... but they both demonstrated trust in Him, not knowing the "correct" behavior He requiŕed.. they were under a law of their own.

‭‭Exodus 1:17 ‬‬
But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live.

‭‭Joshua 2:11 ‬‬
... because of you; for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth below.

They obeyed God, rather than men.. a godly principle.

Do the wise get called many times, or they are not called many times at all, and in fact God has chosen those who are not, because we are not saved by our own wise minds nor our own strength, but by the wisdom of God, which contrary to your convo here guys, is the cross.


1 Corinthians 1:18-31 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?



Next for you guys ( as always) is to instruct how all before Jesus is hot the truth the way and the life, the Jews of Israel have the law, have the old test scriptures, of what happened in Egypt etc, but that leads them to no truth whatsoever. ( no belief in Jesus Christ)


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



So now we know where truth is and how important truth is, ( it is your life) how empty to make a discussion whether truth is a priority, when truth ( and no lie) is life or death.



1 John 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Sometimes, people lie to save others' feelings and constitution. It is not their intention to hurt or harm. Much of the language of scripture speaks of bearing false witness against your neighbor. Don't lie to your neighbor to do him harm. Don't go to court and lie on the stand to incriminate another. You have to listen to your heart. Stodgy observance of a rule that will injure another is not the point. You have to love. Love will not hurt someone for no reason. An example:
Would you tell a young girl she is fat, even when it is true?

SavedByGrace3 said:

Sometimes, people lie to save others' feelings and constitution. It is not their intention to hurt or harm. Much of the language of scripture speaks of bearing false witness against your neighbor. Don't lie to your neighbor to do him harm. Don't go to court and lie on the stand to incriminate another. You have to listen to your heart. Stodgy observance of a rule that will injure another is not the point. You have to love. Love will not hurt someone for no reason. An example:
Would you tell a young girl she is fat, even when it is true?

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It seems to me you are thinking with feelings. We do not take action based upon feelings. We take action based upon love and truth. Let your actions guide your feelings. Not the other way around.

Love does not come in the form of lies.
Lies, when found to be untrue, cause others to question everything you say. Weakening or destroying your witness.

Making up fictitious examples for why one should like is not how life works. There is a tone of context to be observed. Relationship, trust, situation, etc. Lying need not be an option with there are endless other honest options.

Peace and Blessings.

TPop said:

It seems to me you are thinking with feelings. We do not take action based upon feelings. We take action based upon love and truth. Let your actions guide your feelings. Not the other way around.

Love does not come in the form of lies.
Lies, when found to be untrue, cause others to question everything you say. Weakening or destroying your witness.

Making up fictitious examples for why one should like is not how life works. There is a tone of context to be observed. Relationship, trust, situation, etc. Lying need not be an option with there are endless other honest options.

Peace and Blessings.

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Understood.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Sometimes, people lie to save others' feelings and constitution. It is not their intention to hurt or harm. Much of the language of scripture speaks of bearing false witness against your neighbor. Don't lie to your neighbor to do him harm. Don't go to court and lie on the stand to incriminate another. You have to listen to your heart. Stodgy observance of a rule that will injure another is not the point. You have to love. Love will not hurt someone for no reason. An example:
Would you tell a young girl she is fat, even when it is true?

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Gods word is the truth, how is mans word truth, when it cant agree to Gods testimony ?

You even used the word SAVE, this is what saves us..



James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.


So a lie in any form wont save anyone, but the truth in every form does save, and now it depends what we want to be saved from, saved as Peter wanted to save Christ from death, or saved from being like satan, to savour what is of man.



Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



We see Jesus speaks the truth so much, that this is why the Pharisees did NOT BELIEVE HIM. Apostle Paul then has a similar word, of being like an enemy for telling the truth..


John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?



We know Jesus said He came to bear witness to the truth, how He was hated for that, hated for being light as men preferred darkness, so how can it be right or good on a Christian forum for scriptures, to try to show a lie as right, The end of the world has all believing a lie already.



2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Regarding going to court, they were told 2000 years ago to not do that at all...



1 Corinthians 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



As a person begins to see only God in this life, they do not need anything other than God guiding them, ( any person who may or may not be pleased with their body) and God will put all right thoughts their way, that are important to Him. ( just as Peter was taught and then savoured what was of God)

I don't think that lying where it is absolutely necessary for the preservation of human life is a sin. However, in 99.9% of circumstances i believe it to always be sin. Lying to get your way or merely because you don't want to accept the consequences of your actions or because you're afraid of the wrath of the truth is definitely sin. I'm a pathological liar. I lie without thinking or without thinking about the consequences of my actions. I, definitely am a sinner who needs to work on his lying and needs to take responsibility for the harm that my lies cause to others.

But ultimately a liar has to one day give an account to God for his or her actions and the reasons I gave above are definitely not going to fly with God. Nor will any other excuse that I can think of outside of the need to preserve human life. I think that will be the ONLY excuse for lying that God will accept.