Is it ethical to be a Christian in the US?

[FireDragon76]

It's hard to gauge perfectly just how many truly follow Christ's teachings, but I have been in many cities and had many conversations (hundreds, well above 500 lasting more than a few minutes) in both secular and church gatherings over decades, and I've really paid attention to people....

If I had to guess, it seems to me that maybe something like 1 in 15 or 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 people in the groups I've seen believe in Christ in a full way so that they believe enough to listen to Him and follow Him -- actually do as He says. Notice that's not at all like merely 'being Christian' in an American sense. (a lot of people might do 1 or 2 things He said occasionally....instead of that, I'm referring to generally living most of the time doing as He says in most things mostly) (for example, truly listening to Christ we come to hear that Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets. actually is as it says: all the time everywhere (without exceptions; even unto 'love your enemy'), and verses 13 and 14 are about that, and the 2 outcomes of going one way or the other)

But 1 in 20 for instance, just 5% of a population, isn't enough to cause the most predominate social outcomes.

Rather, the other 95% are causing those outcomes.

Nor would be even 20%. (the other 80% would predominate)

You are seeing the result of nominal, or in-name-only, Christianity. A politicized or co-opted 'Christianity' where the bible is only a prop, or a mysterious book that can be claimed to suggest things opposite of what it says when read fully.

So are you saying you don't think Jesus Christ would countenance racial hierarchies or the negation of gay or transgender identities? Because I do see most Christians as supporting those things within the last century or so. Even Martin Luther King Jr. lectured a young gay black man at one time, that he was mentally ill and should seek a psychiatrist. Even though today no psychiatrist would consider that sound advice.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't need a perfect frame of reference.

To judge the ethics of a perfect being, yes, you do. There are quiet a lot of false Gods, that the true God is more easily seen, however.

Too many people are afraid, angry, and prejudiced against their neighbors, that is obvious.

I agree with you on this point...

Unfortunately, rather than being a balm for those problems, it seems much of American religion, feeds peoples fears.

The church to which I belong has never fearmongered in my presence, yet I hear fear mongering and hate every time I hear anything coming out of the mainstream media..

So perhaps we differ on where exactly the fear mongering is coming from - and where the hate is.

It's not in a bunch of people who care about the state of your eternal soul such that they offer you the good news of salvation in love...

 

[FireDragon76]

To judge the ethics of a perfect being, yes, you do. There are quiet a lot of false Gods, that the true God is more easily seen, however.

Merely saying the entity you worship is good, or perfect, isn't good enough... it needs to be demonstrated in some way to be persuasive.

The church to which I belong has never fearmongered in my presence, yet I hear fear mongering and hate every time I hear anything coming out of the mainstream media..

If your church is engaged in Christian nationalist rhetoric, it is indeed engaged in fearmongering, since the whole point of Christian nationalism is that groups such as atheists, pagans, or gays or transpersons represent a threat to a Christian way of life and cultural hegemony.

So perhaps we differ on where exactly the fear mongering is coming from - and where the hate is.

I don't see an equivocation between the two.

The antipathy or mistrust of Christians is at least understandable, since many people are aware of the centuries of spiritual abuse at the hands of Christians.

It's not in a bunch of people who care about the state of your eternal soul such that they offer you the good news of salvation in love...

I was raised in a Christian home, so were most Americans. Others are familiar with the Gospel through the cultural dominance of Christianity in the United States. So most Americans are already familiar with what the Gospel is, have heard this "Good News", in some cases, more than they care to. So this is not really what the agenda of most American white Evangelicals is about. It's about control of behavior, cultural narratives, and enforcing political agendas.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'll go over it again. Christianity is what you think and do and your relationship with God, and not what others think or do. Your response was all about what others think or do and comparative religion is not Christianity.

OK, let's say I agree with you, arguendo: could you please explain why it seems that many Christians here on this forum are saying the opposite, that being a Christian normally involves belonging to a group with shared beliefs and values? That seems to contradict what you are saying, that Christianity is a purely individual belief (and that's also a problem philosophically for me, as I don't believe individuals actually exist in an atomized, Cartesian manner. Like other phenomena, human persons are dependent on causes and conditions beyond themselves).

I only compare Christianity to other religions such as Buddhism to demonstrate that even if I accepted some of the ideas common to many religions (a suggestion of transcendence or ultimacy, often used by evidentiary apologists), Christianity is not the only possible religion one might choose, and many other religions also are full of sayings at least as wise, if not wiser, than anything found in your Bible.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If your church is engaged in Christian nationalist rhetoric, i

My church has a King, and are citizens of His Kingdom... we don't preach ANY world politics from the pulpit - and I would never attend a church that did.

I did once visit a church that did, but I didn't stay for the service, I left.

Most people who are Christian don't stand for such nonsense in Church, and argue against it when the time and place is right.

the cultural dominance of Christianity in the United States.

Just because this country is in largest part professing Christians in one respect or another, doesn't indicate "Christian" dominance.

It does mean the majority traditionally agrees in largest part on socially acceptable norms, and what matters when shaping laws (protecting the innocent, the helpless, those without a voice and more).

It's about control of behavior, cultural narratives, and enforcing political agendas

No... it's really not. It's about living in a land we feel a safe place to raise our children in, where they can maintain their innocence as long as possible, where we have peace and a good life...

What threatens that is what people are against...

 

[FireDragon76]

My church has a King, and are citizens of His Kingdom... we don't preach ANY world politics from the pulpit - and I would never attend a church that did.

I did once visit a church that did, but I didn't stay for the service, I left.

Most people who are Christian don't stand for such nonsense in Church, and argue against it when the time and place is right.



Just because this country is in largest part professing Christians in one respect or another, doesn't indicate "Christian" dominance.

It does mean the majority traditionally agrees in largest part on socially acceptable norms, and what matters when shaping laws (protecting the innocent, the helpless, those without a voice and more).



No... it's really not. It's about living in a land we feel a safe place to raise our children in, where they can maintain their innocence as long as possible, where we have peace and a good life...

What threatens that is what people are against...

That still leaves alot of room for personal antipathy and fearmongering. You are afraid of your children losing innocence. In a pluralistic society, that could potentially mean attacking the liberties of people who have different values, such as acceptance of homosexuality, atheism, non-Christian religions, liberal sexual ethics in general, and so on.

 

[SkyWriting]

OK, let's say I agree with you, arguendo: could you please explain why it seems that many Christians here on this forum are saying the opposite, that being a Christian normally involves belonging to a group with shared beliefs and values? That seems to contradict what you are saying, that Christianity is a purely individual belief (and that's also a problem philosophically for me, as I don't believe individuals actually exist in an atomized, Cartesian manner. Like other phenomena, human persons are dependent on causes and conditions beyond themselves).

I only compare Christianity to other religions such as Buddhism to demonstrate that even if I accepted some of the ideas common to many religions (a suggestion of transcendence or ultimacy, often used by evidentiary apologists), Christianity is not the only possible religion one might choose, and many other religions also are full of sayings at least as wise, if not wiser, than anything found in your Bible.

Christianity is about one's own ongoing relationship with God and The Holy Spirit.
I have no ability to explain what others think on this topic, whatever their beliefs.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christianity is about one's own ongoing relationship with God and The Holy Spirit.
I have no ability to explain what others think on this topic, whatever their beliefs.

And how exactly does one relate to God and the Holy Spirit? Doesn't that usually entail, even if implicitly, attending religious services and calling other Christians "brother".

 

[SkyWriting]

And how exactly does one relate to God and the Holy Spirit? Doesn't that usually entail, even if implicitly, attending religious services and calling other Christians "brother".

I haven't done that in decades, brother. (That was my first time I can recall.)

I understand most people think God is in a holy book or something.
Even ministers do. - Knowing God Through Answered Prayer - Steps 1, 2, & 3

On a related note, God has us back on lock-down today as Wisconsin is the 2nd worst state for COVID percentages per 100. Churches are the top purveyors of disease after night clubs.

-Church members test positive: TN pastor
-More than 40 people infected after Alabama revival weekend
-More than 50 church members test positive - CA

 

[Hazelelponi]

such as acceptance of homosexuality, atheism, non-Christian religions, liberal sexual ethics in general, and so on.

Some of this should be considered and discussed.

What kind of liberal sexual ethics affects the children of other parents? For real... when your affecting other peoples children, rather than just your own, it becomes up for discussion within the public sphere because it's no longer a private matter ..

As for other religions, this country was built upon the ideals of religious liberty, a thing enough of us still care about to protect even minority religions.

But hammer away and attempt to infringe upon Christian religious freedoms, and you hammer away and infringe upon all others.

Where atheism is concerned, which claims not to be a faith yet ends up with all the trimmings of a belief set, again, keep your beliefs to yourself and yours and we will keep working on riding the correct line between church and state.

As far as homosexuality, the homosexual community had a lot of support from actual Christians... my husband and I, and many of our freinds believed even in state sanctioned homosexual marriage, since marriage itself had legal, secular benefits...

We dont believe in making second class citizens out of any group of people, even those we don't agree with.

But the opposition to that position is right, it never stops just there does it? The left can have everything they ask for and it still will never be enough because what's right isn't what they're about, the left is simply no better than those they claim to oppose...

And what happens when that's the case? Now they aren't stopping until young girls have to compete against biological males for athletic scholarships, female children now have to shower out in gym class with biological males, use public restrooms with men and more, and that sort of thing becomes huge points of contention.

Why? Because your back to affecting the children of others in the public sphere...

Why? Because the left is no better than those they claim to oppose...

But all these things are still up for discussion... the problem is the left stopped discussing and is positioning itself for all out war and has been for a while because they DO want to affect the children of others, and our very way of life.

 

[Halbhh]

you don't think Jesus Christ would countenance racial hierarchies

That's correct.

Not one racist will make it to heaven.

Not even 1.

Zero of them will make it we could learn from scripture, when read fully. (but most people never get around to reading scripture fully it seems)

That basic lesson has been easy enough to learn if one reads much in scripture. (For instance, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts chapter 8, where a special intervention is made to save him, with the angel of the Lord (no less!), to baptize him, as if to make a special point in particular that other races are emphatically included in salvation. This is an unusual special effort, and so very high profile, a special honoring of someone of another race than the disciples, akin in a way to how Peter was sent to baptize a gentile household, again in a very exceptional and high profile way.)

The only way to ever be a racist or prejudiced against ethnic groups or any grouping of people as a group, and yet pretend or imagine that one was Christian was to not know much of what is in the bible. It's such a basic failure at a high profile point: the most central law from God about life here on Earth -- to love our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't think all Americans are equally accountable for the problems in our country. Somebody whose ancestors were brought over on ships as slaves, for instance, can hardly be blamed for white privilege.

So would you say if one is white in America they can't be ethical, that it is unethical to be of European descent? Does white privilege make being white in and of itself unethical?

Or, let's frame it another way.

Is it unethical to be Buddhist in Myanmar?
Is it unethical to be Shi'a Muslim in Iran?
Is it unethical to be Hindu in India?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FireDragon76]

So would you say if one is white in America they can't be ethical, that it is unethical to be of European descent? Does white privilege make being white in and of itself unethical?

No.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's correct.

Not one racist will make it to heaven.

Not even 1.

Zero of them will make it we could learn from scripture, when read fully. (but most people never get around to reading scripture fully it seems)

That basic lesson has been easy enough to learn if one reads much in scripture. (For instance, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts chapter 8, where a special intervention is made to save him, with the angel of the Lord (no less!), to baptize him, as if to make a special point in particular that other races are emphatically included in salvation. This is an unusual special effort, and so very high profile, a special honoring of someone of another race than the disciples, akin in a way to how Peter was sent to baptize a gentile household, again in a very exceptional and high profile way.)

The only way to ever be a racist or prejudiced against ethnic groups or any grouping of people as a group, and yet pretend or imagine that one was Christian was to not know much of what is in the bible. It's such a basic failure at a high profile point: the most central law from God about life here on Earth -- to love our neighbors as ourselves.

If reciprocal justice is such an obvious teachings in the Bible, why is it not a prominent part of Christian discourse or practice today in the United States?

I have my own theory, that the religion, through it's focus on divine command ethics, actively works against developing empathy and encourages a lack of curiosity in the wider world.

 

[Halbhh]

If reciprocal justice is such an obvious teachings in the Bible, why is it not a prominent part of Christian discourse or practice today in the United States?

I have my own theory, that the religion, through it's focus on divine command ethics, actively works against developing empathy and encourages a lack of curiosity in the wider world.

The term 'reciprocal justice' isn't one I've used before, nor noticed, though sometimes one has a same concept under a deferent label. I see this definition: "Reciprocal justice is also different from distributive justice. In the case of exchange of goods, reciprocity (in reciprocal justice) is determined on the basis of the value of the goods, while distribution (in distributive justice) is determined on the basis of the merit of the person that receives them."
Reciprocity and Justice: What Aristotle tells us about it! | The Business Thinker

Is that exactly what you are referring to, or if not, what is a better definition here? One key central thing in Christianity is the reality that we are not able to earn the value of the amazing gifts being given to us, though it is true that the good gifts help us want to do more. I think I should wait for your reply before going further, since I'm not sure what you are referring to in that first sentence.

 

[FireDragon76]

The term 'reciprocal justice' isn't one I've used before, nor noticed, though sometimes one has a same concept under a deferent label. I see this definition: "Reciprocal justice is also different from distributive justice. In the case of exchange of goods, reciprocity (in reciprocal justice) is determined on the basis of the value of the goods, while distribution (in distributive justice) is determined on the basis of the merit of the person that receives them."
Reciprocity and Justice: What Aristotle tells us about it! | The Business Thinker

Is that exactly what you are referring to, or if not, what is a better definition here? One key central thing in Christianity is the reality that we are not able to earn the value of the amazing gifts being given to us, though it is true that the good gifts help us want to do more. I think I should wait for your reply before going further, since I'm not sure what you are referring to in that first sentence.

Reciprocity is treating people according to how you would wish to be treated if you were in similar circumstances. In Confucian thought, it is also known as shù 恕.

"do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire” (Analects, XV. 24)