Is it easier for Protestants to become Orthodox than Roman Catholics

[Jesus4Madrid]

It pains me to read about the vast homosexual network in the Roman Catholic hierarchy and their scandalous abuse of minors. If I were Roman Catholic, I know that I would be tempted to abandon the Roman ship. After all, I abandoned the Anglican ship for much the same reasons.

This is also not the first widespread sexual scandal in the Roman church. Yet when I visit American Orthodox churches (mostly Antiochian ones full of converts), most of the converts I meet are from Protestant backgrounds. Not all of them, admittedly, and one former RC was particularly instrumental in my becoming Orthodox—glory to God! But most seem to be ex Evangelicals.

Why is that? Am I wrong? Are Romans especially reluctant in your opinion to leave their church in favour of Holy Orthodoxy? If so, why do RCs hang on, especially in light of the recent scandals? Is it because of their ultramontanism? Is it because they have, until recently, been taught that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Church?

I don’t get it.

 

[All4Christ]

It pains me to read about the vast homosexual network in the Roman Catholic hierarchy and their scandalous abuse of minors. If I were Roman Catholic, I know that I would be tempted to abandon the Roman ship. After all, I abandoned the Anglican ship for much the same reasons.

This is also not the first widespread sexual scandal in the Roman church. Yet when I visit American Orthodox churches (mostly Antiochian ones full of converts), most of the converts I meet are from Protestant backgrounds. Not all of them, admittedly, and one former RC was particularly instrumental in my becoming Orthodox—glory to God! But most seem to be ex Evangelicals.

Why is that? Am I wrong? Are Romans especially reluctant in your opinion to leave their church in favour of Holy Orthodoxy? If so, why do RCs hang on, especially in light of the recent scandals? Is it because of their ultramontanism? Is it because they have, until recently, been taught that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Church?

I don’t get it.

I’ve seen the same in our parish. Most are converts from Protestant Churches or converts from Byzantine Catholic parishes. Some were RCC, became EC and then converted to Orthodoxy.

 

[Not David]

I might not be Orthodox but I have to admit Orthodox Christianity allowed me to appreciate more about Holy Tradition and certain doctrines foreign to Protestantism (Veneration of the Saints). I always thought all of that stuff was Catholic man-made stuff but seeing another Apostolic Church doing that changed my mind.

 

[dzheremi]

A lot of people's Catholicism is more cultural than anything. Like in my case, I was Roman Catholic essentially because it was part of my family's cultural/ethnic background (my father's side came from Mexico and Ireland, so...), so as far as I knew it was the only game in town as far as apostolic churches were concerned, since I wasn't Russian or Greek or whatever. I knew that the EO church existed, of course, but my thinking then was that is for other people. If God had wanted us to be EO, he would've put us in Russia or Serbia or whatever.

It's silly in the extreme, but the same happens in Roman Catholic cultures, too. I have friends who openly disagree with Rome on basically everything but remain because "Where else can I go? I'm Maronite", or whatever. Ecclesiatical affiliation is paramount because Rome not surprisingly makes it paramount by telling its believers the kind of histories it does. It takes a lot more to get out of that than it probably would for most Protestants, because many Protestants aren't fed such strong ecclesiological claims as Roman Catholics are.

If you believe in an invisible church composed of all believers across denominational or communion lines, then you're going to have a very different outlook on things than someone who is told that they cannot leave communion with a particular See without risking their eternal soul or whatever.

 

[TuxAme]

Protestants seem more willing to embrace Orthodoxy over Catholicism because they don't have to accept the Papacy. That tends to be one of the last things they would be willing to accept.

As for me, I remain in the Catholic Church because I'm convinced that it's the Church of Jesus, regardless of what others do.

 

[archer75]

I have family members who are lapsed Catholics and I have heard the attitude from them, many times, despite the sometime vehement anti-Catholic attitudes they display, "But it's the True Church...all the other ones are just little spinoffs."

I assume that RC education has or had a strong narrative that makes some Catholics just quit entirely rather than turn to the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Orthodox...

 

[buzuxi02]

I think part of the problem stems from bad SCOBA policy. Most RC would not see any reason to convert.The GOARCH does not require RC spouses to convert nor do they see any need for them to convert. SCOBA (or whatever the successor group is) bizarre dialogues with the RC has rendered conversions as bad proselytism .

 

[JIMINZ]

I had the problem when I left the Catholic Church, where was I to go?

So I just stopped going to Church at all, if everyone else is wrong or false, then my going anywhere else is useless, where I came from is where the Truth was.

In time I came to find, I am connected to Jesus Christ through His Sacrifice, not by what the Church did, therefore I came to the understanding, the Catholic Church was no different than any other Denomination out there, and I began my New Walk with the Lord from that point, as though I had never heard about Jesus in my life, and went through all of the motions of becoming a Born Again Child of God.

I have come to believe, it is as hard to get a Catholic to become a Protestant, as it is to get a Jew to become a Christian.

 

[Basil the Great]

It pains me to read about the vast homosexual network in the Roman Catholic hierarchy and their scandalous abuse of minors. If I were Roman Catholic, I know that I would be tempted to abandon the Roman ship. After all, I abandoned the Anglican ship for much the same reasons.

This is also not the first widespread sexual scandal in the Roman church. Yet when I visit American Orthodox churches (mostly Antiochian ones full of converts), most of the converts I meet are from Protestant backgrounds. Not all of them, admittedly, and one former RC was particularly instrumental in my becoming Orthodox—glory to God! But most seem to be ex Evangelicals.

Why is that? Am I wrong? Are Romans especially reluctant in your opinion to leave their church in favour of Holy Orthodoxy? If so, why do RCs hang on, especially in light of the recent scandals? Is it because of their ultramontanism? Is it because they have, until recently, been taught that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Church?

I don’t get it.

The EENS salvation doctrine, aka Outside the Church There Is No Salvation, is no longer interpreted for Protestants and Orthodox as strictly it was in the 1400's, due to the use of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine. However, it is still interpreted very strictly when it comes to native Catholics who forsake Holy Mother Church for a different faith. Based upon all that I have seen, it appears that many Catholics who either leave Mother Church or are thinking about leaving, are totally unaware of the Church's position on the fate of their soul if they leave and fail to be reconciled with the Church prior to their death. For those who are aware of the Church's salvation doctrine as it applies to ex-Catholics, it could be a strong deterrent to their leaving for another faith.

Needless to say, I do feel badly for faithful Catholics who must endure the current news headlines and most especially for those who either were abused themselves or had friends or family members who were abused. As I keep saying on Christian Forums, the sex abuse crisis reflects badly upon the entire Christian community, not just the Catholic Church. May God help us all.

 

[Albion]

I can see why Protestants convert to Orthodoxy. These are people who have been persuaded of the beliefs, devotionals, history etc. that characterize both Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but, when it comes to choosing between the two of them, Orthodoxy appears to them admirably free of such Roman innovations as Papal Infallibility, Indulgences, and much more.

 

[ttcmacro]

The EENS salvation doctrine, aka Outside the Church There Is No Salvation, is no longer interpreted for Protestants and Orthodox as strictly it was in the 1400's, due to the use of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine. However, it is still interpreted very strictly when it comes to native Catholics who forsake Holy Mother Church for a different faith.....For those who are aware of the Church's salvation doctrine as it applies to ex-Catholics, it could be a strong deterrent to their leaving for another faith.

This has been my experience with Catholics exploring the Orthodox faith. They were willing to come to liturgy instead of RC Mass, but were hesitant to actually become Orthodox despite no longer being a practicing Catholic.

 

[Basil the Great]

I can see why Protestants convert to Orthodoxy. These are people who have been persuaded of the beliefs, devotionals, history etc. that characterize both Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but, when it comes to choosing between the two of them, Orthodoxy appears to them admirably free of such Roman innovations as Papal Infallibility, Indulgences, and much more.

Yes, Albion, plus it is a little more lenient on the use of artificial birth control, depending upon one's particular situation and one's own priest.

 

[abacabb3]

The EENS salvation doctrine, aka Outside the Church There Is No Salvation, is no longer interpreted for Protestants and Orthodox as strictly it was in the 1400's, due to the use of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine. However, it is still interpreted very strictly when it comes to native Catholics who forsake Holy Mother Church for a different faith. Based upon all that I have seen, it appears that many Catholics who either leave Mother Church or are thinking about leaving, are totally unaware of the Church's position on the fate of their soul if they leave and fail to be reconciled with the Church prior to their death. For those who are aware of the Church's salvation doctrine as it applies to ex-Catholics, it could be a strong deterrent to their leaving for another faith.

Needless to say, I do feel badly for faithful Catholics who must endure the current news headlines and most especially for those who either were abused themselves or had friends or family members who were abused. As I keep saying on Christian Forums, the sex abuse crisis reflects badly upon the entire Christian community, not just the Catholic Church. May God help us all.

I'm Orthodox and I don't believe there is salvation outside the Church, it is the very reason I became Orthodox.

 

[abacabb3]

To answer the OP--Orthodoxy is easier to stomach. Not as many rigid extra-biblical doctrines to swallow, a sort of wishy-washyness about mystical stuff that makes things that seem contrary to Protestantism less completely opposes, and it has an appeal of being foreign and a return to the "original Church" (though in reality Orthodoxy was mostly forged in the 4th and 5th centuries, and much of what we have now has been altered in the 1700 and 1800s.

Nevertheless, Orthodoxy is the Church Christ founded...so you would hope that has an obvious appeal.

I have noticed that those more into their philosophy and theology become Roman Catholic...the weird ones become eastern catholic.

 

[Basil the Great]

I'm Orthodox and I don't believe there is salvation outside the Church, it is the very reason I became Orthodox.

The Orthodox seem to have the same view of ex-Orthodox as Catholics have of ex-Catholics, when it comes to interpreting the ancient EENS salvation doctrine, "Outside the Church There Is No Salvation".

 

[Albion]

Yes, Albion, plus it is a little more lenient on the use of artificial birth control, depending upon one's particular situation and one's own priest.

Certainly. And if we think about it, there are quite a few other matters that are treated in a similar way.

 

[Hank77]

Protestants seem more willing to embrace Orthodoxy over Catholicism because they don't have to accept the Papacy. That tends to be one of the last things they would be willing to accept.

For me it would be this.

 

[Albion]

Why is that? Am I wrong? Are Romans especially reluctant in your opinion to leave their church in favour of Holy Orthodoxy? If so, why do RCs hang on, especially in light of the recent scandals? Is it because of their ultramontanism? Is it because they have, until recently, been taught that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Church?

I would guess that it is because of the "Only True Church" idea that is relentlessly pounded into them. I know quite a few ex-Catholics who attend no church now but think of themselves as stray Christians, although not by choice; but if they cannot accept what the RCC does or says which they believe to be wrong, they also think that no other church can substitute since they are all bogus. That much they carry with them even as they desert the RCC because of some other teaching that they have concluded is in error!

It could be said that Orthodoxy makes the same claim, but the RC version comes with particular "evidences" that the unwary do not realize are not as represented. For example, there is that church's interpretation of Matthew 16:18 and, with it, the assertion that the church of Christ from the beginning believed in the concept of a Pope.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It pains me to read about the vast homosexual network in the Roman Catholic hierarchy and their scandalous abuse of minors. If I were Roman Catholic, I know that I would be tempted to abandon the Roman ship. After all, I abandoned the Anglican ship for much the same reasons.

This is also not the first widespread sexual scandal in the Roman church. Yet when I visit American Orthodox churches (mostly Antiochian ones full of converts), most of the converts I meet are from Protestant backgrounds. Not all of them, admittedly, and one former RC was particularly instrumental in my becoming Orthodox—glory to God! But most seem to be ex Evangelicals.

Why is that? Am I wrong? Are Romans especially reluctant in your opinion to leave their church in favour of Holy Orthodoxy? If so, why do RCs hang on, especially in light of the recent scandals? Is it because of their ultramontanism? Is it because they have, until recently, been taught that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Church?

I don’t get it.

I think one of the things which has hurt our ability to dialogue is the modern Roman concept of the Two Lungs theory (which is complete nonsense). so why convert if you have been told for a long time that we are really close to each other (we're not) and we fully recognize each other's sacramental life (we don't). why even start looking if we are told we are really just the same?

 

[dzheremi]

I think one of the things which has hurt our ability to dialogue is the modern Roman concept of the Two Lungs theory (which is complete nonsense). so why convert if you have been told for a long time that we are really close to each other (we're not) and we fully recognize each other's sacramental life (we don't). why even start looking if we are told we are really just the same?

The funny thing about that is if you read the original document from which this "two lungs" phrasing comes, it is very clear that the Pope is not really making that point. From that encyclical titled Ut Unum Sint (That they may be one), promulgated in 1995 by Pope John Paul II:

In this perspective an expression which I have frequently employed finds its deepest meaning: the Church must breathe with her two lungs! In the first millennium of the history of Christianity, this expression refers primarily to the relationship between Byzantium and Rome. [...]

In its historical survey the Council Decree Unitatis Redintegratio has in mind the unity which, in spite of everything, was experienced in the first millennium and in a certain sense now serves as a kind of model. "This most sacred Synod gladly reminds all ... that in the East there flourish many particular or local Churches; among them the Patriarchal Churches hold first place; and of these, many glory in taking their origin from the Apostles themselves".The Church's journey began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and its original expansion in the oikoumene of that time was centred around Peter and the Eleven (cf. Acts 2:14). The structures of the Church in the East and in the West evolved in reference to that Apostolic heritage. Her unity during the first millennium was maintained within those same structures through the Bishops, Successors of the Apostles, in communion with the Bishop of Rome. If today at the end of the second millennium we are seeking to restore full communion, it is to that unity, thus structured, which we must look.

The Decree on Ecumenism highlights a further distinctive aspect, thanks to which all the particular Churches remained in unity: "an eager desire to perpetuate in a communion of faith and charity those family ties which ought to thrive between local Churches, as between sisters".

Following the Second Vatican Council, and in the light of earlier tradition, it has again become usual to refer to the particular or local Churches gathered around their Bishop as "Sister Churches". In addition, the lifting of the mutual excommunications, by eliminating a painful canonical and psychological obstacle, was a very significant step on the way towards full communion.

The structures of unity which existed before the separation are a heritage of experience that guides our common path towards the re-establishment of full communion. Obviously, during the second millennium the Lord has not ceased to bestow on his Church abundant fruits of grace and growth. Unfortunately, however, the gradual and mutual estrangement between the Churches of the West and the East deprived them of the benefits of mutual exchanges and cooperation. With the grace of God a great effort must be made to re-establish full communion among them, the source of such good for the Church of Christ. This effort calls for all our good will, humble prayer and a steadfast cooperation which never yields to discouragement. Saint Paul urges us: "Bear one another's burdens" (Gal 6:2). How appropriate and relevant for us is the Apostle's exhortation! The traditional designation of "Sister Churches" should ever accompany us along this path.
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It would be mighty odd for the RCC to be talking about the need to reestablish communion if in fact the EO and the RC were really the same. Of course, the RCC wants to communicate to its partisans this idea that the schism came about as a result of human pride, and that the modern RC attitude is one of humility and familial love and all this, so it is not surprising that many RCs (myself included, for the time I was one) would come away with the impression that the RCC and EO are essentially the same (because they teach this or something like this in many other places), but it seems that somewhere along the line from the long, long ago of 1995 until now, the actual aim to that expression seems to have been twisted from "we need to work to reestablish communion" to its antonym (~ "we don't need to work to reestablish communion, because we're basically the same as it is -- we just need to get the EO to accept/realize this").