Is it Biblically correct to ask God to avenge for you when you have been wronged?

[YahuahSaves]

So a chosen person could lose their crown if they become unfaithful.

What makes a person "chosen" though? To me it alludes that there's no choice on the part of the person whether or not they're saved... I don't believe that. I think God gave us all a choice to choose Him and be saved.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

What makes a person "chosen" though? To me it alludes that there's no choice on the part of the person whether or not they're saved... I don't believe that. I think God gave us all a choice to choose Him and be saved.

John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

That's why it's the called, the chosen and the faithful. We have a choice whether or not to continue in what He called us for.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

What makes a person "chosen" though? To me it alludes that there's no choice on the part of the person whether or not they're saved... I don't believe that. I think God gave us all a choice to choose Him and be saved.

I don't believe God is saving the whole world now; the whole world will be saved through Jesus Christ, but only after Satan is bound. Right now God is only working with select few. Not everyone is being called, because God is being merciful. Anyone who rejects the truth, rejects the Holy Spirit for the lusts of the world, cannot be redeemed. They have committed the unpardonable sin. And while Satan is in the world the temptations are too great for some people that if they did know the truth, being too involved in the world and deceived by riches and grandeur they might turn their foot away from God and then how can they be saved? For the sake of their eternal life, God has kept a veil on the people. Judgment begins at the House of God. God's judging the church now but he is not judging the world as of yet, but he will afterwards.

Now is not the only day of salvation. At least, that's what I believe.

 

[YahuahSaves]

That's why it's the called, the chosen and the faithful. We have a choice whether or not to continue in what He called us for.

I believe Jesus chosen one's were his disciples. Every other person requires faith.

35 Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. 37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

 

[YahuahSaves]

Judgment begins at the House of God. God's judging the church now but he is not judging the world as of yet, but he will afterwards.

Now is not the only day of salvation. At least, that's what I believe.

I agree with these 2 statements. Every day is now. it's all we have, as long as we are alive. Yesterday is gone, tomorrow has not yet come. But now is important, because we may not see tomorrow.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I believe Jesus chosen one's were his disciples. Every other person requires faith.

Faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) So we still go back to John 6:44

If you'll pardon my laziness and accept a link, I think this site gives a nice, concise explanation to called and chosen:

 

[YahuahSaves]

Faith is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) So we still go back to John 6:44

If you'll pardon my laziness and accept a link, I think this site gives a nice, concise explanation to called and chosen:

Grace is the gift. Saved by GRACE through faith, not of ourselves (meaning not through works) so no one can boast. I have a link below that investigates the ancient-hebrew word for grace, and it's about much more than the English definition.

"Again, this Hebrew word is being paralleled with "beauty." This "beauty" is something that is precious and graceful, which is exactly how the Hebrews would have seen the "camp of protection," a graceful and precious place." The meaning of Grace from a Hebrew perspective

 

[grafted branch]

Judgment begins at the House of God. God's judging the church now but he is not judging the world as of yet, but he will afterwards.

If God is not judging the world yet then why would it be Biblically correct to ask God to judge or arbitrate when wronged?



PS. I’m also OK with going off topic. I think the rule of thumb is not to try to derail a thread right off the bat. I’m enjoying reading the views of others.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Grace is the gift. Saved by GRACE through faith, not of ourselves (meaning not through works) so no one can boast. I have a link below that investigates the ancient-hebrew word for grace, and it's about much more than the English definition.

"Again, this Hebrew word is being paralleled with "beauty." This "beauty" is something that is precious and graceful, which is exactly how the Hebrews would have seen the "camp of protection," a graceful and precious place." The meaning of Grace from a Hebrew perspective

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, correct? And the Holy Spirit is a gift? You cannot have perfect faith without the Holy Spirit. You can have human faith, but that is different and cannot save you. It is the Faith of Christ that saves us, and is not of works.

If God is not judging the world yet then why would it be Biblically correct to ask God to judge or arbitrate when wronged?



PS. I’m also OK with going off topic. I think the rule of thumb is not to try to derail a thread right off the bat. I’m enjoying reading the views of others.

Because God is a Father and if His children are hurt--grievously hurt--He will intervene for their sake and for the sake of his other children. Human court of law avenges people all the time. God may 'avenge' his children by arranging circumstances so that a perpetrator is caught and brought before human law and the individual is judged according to our laws. He may not judged them according to His law as of yet, but every nation has 'thou shalt no murder' in their law and so forth.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I also want to add that it's important for human children to be able to trust their human father for protection. As children of God it's important for us to know that we have a God--a Father in Heaven--who will fight our battles when we are down. He might hand perpetrators over to our courts, or He'll judge an individual by the measure they meted out. And if the individual is someone who claims to be of Christ but is not, He may judge them according to His law because they claim to be of Him.

It's His discretion to determine how He comes to his judgment or how he will fight for His children or when he will rise up and fight for them.

 

[grafted branch]

I also want to add that it's important for human children to be able to trust their human father for protection. As children of God it's important for us to know that we have a God--a Father in Heaven--who will fight our battles when we are down. He might hand perpetrators over to our courts, or He'll judge an individual by the measure they meted out. And if the individual is someone who claims to be of Christ but is not, He may judge them according to His law because they claim to be of Him.

It's His discretion to determine how He comes to his judgment or how he will fight for His children or when he will rise up and fight for them.

Ok, so let’s go back to the law, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. If I was harmed and lost my eye under the Mosaic Law, to be avenged the person who caused this would have to loose his eye. This is not eternal judgement but it would be considered an earthly governmental judgment.

In Revelation 6:10 we see the souls asking how long till their blood is avenged on them that dwell on the earth. I think most everyone would agree that those who “dwell on the earth” is referring to people who are alive on the planet. So this would be an example of asking God when is He is going to execute judgement on earth, not necessarily eternal judgement. This is similar to the Luke 18:1-8 account of a widow repeatedly asking to be avenged, verse 7 says the elect cry day and night unto Him about being avenged.

If we are still under the moral law then would you say it is Biblical to repeatedly ask God to avenge according to the moral law?

 

[Benjamin Müller]

This is not eternal judgement but it would be considered an earthly governmental judgment.

Yes. That is an excellent way of putting it. (I'm not the most articulate person so my explanations are definitely not optimum v.v)

If we are still under the moral law then would you say it is Biblical to repeatedly ask God to avenge according to the moral law?

Not necessarily repeatedly, but yes, I believe so. I think once a request is made, a Christian should let go and let God, unless they are repeatedly being persecuted/wronged.

If you're attacked without provocation and someone knocks out your eye, to avenge yourself will just cause more trouble. I think of Prince Harry as an example. The more he complains and explains the deeper the pit he's digging for himself. Someone has to stop the attacks otherwise it just goes back and forth tit-for-tat, and to what end?

A Christian can take this before God and leave it in God's hand to measure out justice. The measure that one uses it will be measured back to them. So if you're eye has been knocked out and you bring your case before God, God may not resort to the same means by which the eye was lost, but may employ another method: he might allow the perpetrator to develop diabetes which causes loss of eye-sight and it degrades to partial blindness.

One who hope that individuals will look at their circumstances and say, I have lost my eyesight for the sins of my youth and I repent of what I have done. But it may not necessarily be the case. Knocking out someone's eye won't send the perpetrator to the Lake-of-Fire, we certainly do not pray for that, but we can pray for justice in this world, which will hopefully be a learning experience to bring that person to repentance. Optimally we should pray that God brings them to understanding and brings them to repentance so that they learn from their mistake and don't repeat it on others.

 

[grafted branch]

Not necessarily repeatedly, but yes, I believe so. I think once a request is made, a Christian should let go and let God, unless they are repeatedly being persecuted/wronged.

And one more question if you don’t mind, in Luke 18:8 it asks the question when the Son of man comes will he find such faith? Some people argue the answer is yes, others argue it’s no, what do you think?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, correct? And the Holy Spirit is a gift? You cannot have perfect faith without the Holy Spirit. You can have human faith, but that is different and cannot save you. It is the Faith of Christ that saves us, and is not of works.

No, faith is belief & trust, that's up to us. We have to put off the flesh (our mind/will/emotions) to enter God's "rest" (obey His will). Look at the Israelites exit out of Egypt as an example of Faith. We have faith in Christ, we believe he died on the cross to take the penalty of our sin, that's the first step.

Hebrews 11:6

6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

faith
noun

1) The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.
2) Specifically Firm belief based upon confidence in the authority and veracity of another, rather than upon one's own knowledge, reason, or judgment; earnest and trustful confidence: as, to have faith in the testimony of a witness; to have faith in a friend.
3) In a more restricted sense: In theology, spiritual perception of the invisible objects of religious veneration; a belief founded on such spiritual perception.

The fruits of the spirit are from the Holy Spirits work in us and through us, after we come to God's saving  Grace through our faith.

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

"Faithfulness" is not our belief in God, it's living in righteousness & keeping our covenant with God.

faithfulness
noun

The quality or character of being faithful; fidelity; truth; loyalty; constancy.
SynonymsConstancy, Fidelity, etc. See firmness.
the trait of being faithful.

righteousness
noun

1) The character of being righteous; purity of heart and rectitude of life; the being and doing right; conformity in character and conduct to a right standard.
2) Hence, also In theology, a coming into spiritual oneness with God, because for Christ's sake the believer in Christ is treated as righteous.
3) A righteous act or quality; anything which is or purports to be righteous.

I also want to add that it's important for human children to be able to trust their human father for protection.

That's Grace. Read what the original hebrew word for grace means (link below).

this Hebrew word is being paralleled with "beauty." This "beauty" is something that is precious and graceful, which is exactly how the Hebrews would have seen the "camp of protection," a graceful and precious place." From: The meaning of Grace from a Hebrew perspective

 

[YahuahSaves]

TLB
Because of his kindness, you have been saved through trusting Christ. And even trusting is not of yourselves; it too is a gift from God.

You don't understand emphasis do you? "Saved BY grace THROUGH faith."

Here are some English translations that are closest to the original languages.

Ephesians 2:7-9
Young's Literal Translation
7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9 not of works, that no one may boast;

Ephesians 2:8
King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

by
preposition

Close to; next to.
With the use or help of; through.
Up to and beyond; past.

through
preposition

In one side and out the opposite or another side of.
Among or between; in the midst of.
By way of.

 

[IoanC]

Don't forget to follow your heart. (a cliche that might work). If you feel you cannot love your neighbour as yourself and forgive, then you can ask for vengeance.

 

[Sabertooth]

"...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." Matthew 6:12
During this season, we are called to be Ambassadors [2 Corinthians 5:20], not executioners.

Here are some things that we can ask for:

1. that our enemies might be defunded; that they would lose the time & resources to continue doing their evil efficiently,*
2. that our enemies would be confused & disoriented in their pursuit of such evil and
3. for God to protect us from further injury at their hands, by keeping them from our path and us from theirs.

That leaves room for those in their midst to repent and keeps us from holding onto self-destructive grudges.
(Don't forget to pray for their Salvation, too.)

Forgive One Another, Faithful Heart (1990)

*If we cannot stop them from being evil, we can at least, ask that they would be lousy shots & run out of "bullets...!"

 

[YahuahSaves]

"The Bible teaches that all unbelievers are dead in trespasses and sin. A dead person cannot believe in Christ. In fact, I remember the day when I was in seminary, the professor asked the question, “What can a dead man do?” And one fellow student in the back row said, “Stink.” That’s really all a dead man can do. There is the bondage of the will. There is no inherent faith towards Christ that is present in the spiritually dead sinner. This is a very important theological truth.

Are you still drinking spiritual milk or are you onto solid food?

"The word "אמונה / emunah / faith", also from the root "אמן / aman", also means "to support" or "hold firm". The Hebrew understanding of faith in God is that one "holds onto", and "does" the teachings of God, not the English understanding where the action is placed solely on God. One who follows the Torah in this way, supports the Torah (keeping the Torah by faith)."

From: A New Heart: Covenant relationship with God

 

[Wayne Gabler]

You don't even have to ask:
2Th:1:4-9:
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God,
that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God,
for which ye also suffer:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
and from the glory of his power;

Re:6:9-11:
And when he had opened the fifth seal,
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice,
saying,
How long,
O Lord,
holy and true,
dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.

The ones they are waiting for are the two witnesses.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

And one more question if you don’t mind, in Luke 18:8 it asks the question when the Son of man comes will he find such faith? Some people argue the answer is yes, others argue it’s no, what do you think?

I didn't know how to answer so I asked my Dad, and we discussed the topic of this thread and he corrected me in a few areas and helped give me clarity. I was conflicted over 'love your enemies' and 'do good to those who persecute you', and the traditional Christianity of turn the other cheek and forgive and I was having trouble reconciling that with vengeance, so I thought perhaps arbitrate was the better word, but Dad says no.

There's no going soft about it. To avenge is to avenge. So I apologize for my falsitude in the previous post(s). I take back the matter of semantics and concede that it is not arbitration. You opened a really good thread that had to get me thinking and consolidating my beliefs, so I appreciate you doing this.

My Dad brought up a question that really got me thinking: if someone is truly unrepentant are we obligated to forgive them?

Obviously Christians are going to say yes, of course, but if we are to forgive all things what is the purpose then of the Lake of Fire? Obviously we hope no one gets that far, but it exists for a reason.

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

So if something is really bothering you, you might ask for justice repeatedly as the widow did. And God likened his saints to the widow, who continually returned asking for vengeance. When Christ asks if He will find faith on the earth, he is asking if he will find the same manner of faith as the widow, who persistently sought to be avenged knowing if she kept going back the unjust judge would eventually do something for her.

And the elect aside, God may not find that type of persistent faith, of continual asking, knowing that you will receive vengeance (or perhaps anything else) if you ask enough. If you ask once and move on and get along just fine, then it obviously isn't a big deal to you compared to the martyrs who are/were brutalized and have to live with it day and night. So if a Christian is being chronically persecuted or has become injured, lame, lost a loved one etc. where the wrong-doing has made a lasting effect on their life, then there is nothing sinful in repeatedly taking your complaint before God to be avenged, especially if your concern isn't completely self-centered, but you're also concerned and grieved that your perpetrator is doing the same exact thing to others and they need to be stopped.

As for the type of faith God is looking for, there will be scoffers in the last days who will say where is the sign of his coming? Many people lost their faith in WW1 and WW2, how much more in WW3? The elect have that faith, but does the world? The Great Tribulation will be a time like no other, so, if there are people with that type of faith, I'd say it might be rare.