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Is it Biblically correct to ask God to avenge for you when you have been wronged?

Is it Biblically correct, on earth, to ask God to avenge for you when you have been wronged?

  • Not now but it will be in the future

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes it is now but will not be in the future

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    18

YahuahSaves

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Ok thanks for that response, you believe judgment is currently taking place.
By that I meant God separating the wheat from the chaff to see who will obey him.

Do you believe the law is still valid?
Yes, the moral law. but it's nothing we can accomplish on our own. God works in us and through us via the Holy Spirit to produce the fruit of the spirit and to execute the work he planned for us to do in advance. But we have to be willing (obedient) participants in his plan.
 
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grafted branch

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The same goes for the kings of the earth in the Revelation. Those who commit fornication with the harlot, and those who do not. Those who apostatize in 2 Thessalonians 2, and those who do not. We are Israel.
Right, the kings of the earth commit fornication with the harlot and in Revelation 18:3 it says the kings of the earth have committed fornication with Babylon.

In Revelation 18:9-10 the kings of the earth are standing afar off lamenting for Babylon when it is judged. This is after Babylon has fallen and the command given to come out of her my people.

Here I see three distinct groups of people

1-believers which may or may not have once been in Babylon.

2-unbelievers who remain in Babylon until in Revelation 18:20 God avenges you (believers) on her (Babylon).

3-kings of the earth who lament for Babylon when they see the smoke of her burning.

I suppose the example that best fits this is when Israel exits Egypt and they lament for Egypt in the wilderness.

Like I said before I haven’t done an in-depth study on this, so I’m asking you, what do you see here? Are the kings of the earth in Revelation 18:9-10 believers, apostate believers, unbelievers, or ?
 
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Zao is life

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Right, the kings of the earth commit fornication with the harlot and in Revelation 18:3 it says the kings of the earth have committed fornication with Babylon.

In Revelation 18:9-10 the kings of the earth are standing afar off lamenting for Babylon when it is judged. This is after Babylon has fallen and the command given to come out of her my people.

Here I see three distinct groups of people

1-believers which may or may not have once been in Babylon.

2-unbelievers who remain in Babylon until in Revelation 18:20 God avenges you (believers) on her (Babylon).

3-kings of the earth who lament for Babylon when they see the smoke of her burning.

I suppose the example that best fits this is when Israel exits Egypt and they lament for Egypt in the wilderness.

Like I said before I haven’t done an in-depth study on this, so I’m asking you, what do you see here? Are the kings of the earth in Revelation 18:9-10 believers, apostate believers, unbelievers, or ?
@grafted branch I had edit here: I believe the kings of the earth - those that committed fornication with the harlot - is referring to apostate believers - the same group mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. I do not believe this has already occurred, but it is yet to occur.

Naturally I believe the same about the Revelation.:

There are types and antitypes throughout Israel's history and the apocalyptic literature associated with it. There is old Jerusalem and there is new Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem serves as our example, and there is literal Babylon and there is spiritual Babylon - the antithesis of new Jerusalem in the Revelation (Revelation 21:9 and Revelation 17:1)..

So a lot of what was said to literal Babylon and to God's elect in the 6th century B.C is said again to God's elect in the Revelation:

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

Babylon the Great is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

The only three entities in the Revelation accused of fornication are Babylon the Great, Jezebel and her followers of the church at Thyatira, and the kings of the earth.

So Babylon the Great is full of fornication, but "there shall in no way enter into new Jerusalem anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27).

The type: Literal Babylon. the antitype: Babylon the Great (the same language is used):

Revelation 18:6 (see Jeremiah 50:29); Revelation 17:1 (see Jeremiah 51:13); Revelation 18:21 (see Jeremiah 51:63-64); Revelation 18:3-4 (see Jeremiah 51:6-8); Revelation 18:4 (see Jeremiah 51:45).

It's precisely because the same language is used for both type and antitype that so many Christians today conflate the type with the antitype, and it's also no wonder that the same metaphor used to describe literal Babylon's destruction is also used in the Revelation. I believe the stars that fall from heaven are a reference to apostate saints, and the kings of the earth who commit fornication the same, and their teachers, and I believe that the following is the type of the man of sin and what is coming:

Daniel 8:10-11
10 And it (the little horn) became great, even to the host of heaven. And it made fall some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself, even to the ruler of the host, and the daily sacrifice was taken away by him, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

I believe the above indeed does refer to Antiochis IV Epiphanes and his attack on the saints of his day, and the apostasy of the Jews of the day. It's history. It's written in the books of the Maccabees and in Josephus also. We are Israel. Old Jerusalem is the type. New Jerusalem is the antitype (Hebrews 12:22). These things are written for our instruction (2 Timothy 3:16).
 
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Benjamin Müller

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A counselor is another term for a lawyer, but it's also Jesus who will judge.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name will be called
“Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

John 5:22-23

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.


I would.
Thank you for the correction.

@grafted branch I think you posted a good question, so I appreciate this thread. It got me thinking a lot about it.

To answer your question: the kings of the earth would be those who are not of God. I won't say 'unbelievers' because whether someone claims to be Messianic or Jewish; Catholic; Protestant or any other denomination they may believe in God, but on an individual level they may not obey God. The kings of the earth are those who do not obey God. These are the ten toes of Daniel and the ten kings of Revelation, who have no kingdom as of yet, but receive authority with the Beast for one hour.

I don't believe that the harlot of Babylon is apostate Israel because Christ is returning to redeem Israel from the world. Christ isn't coming to save the world or redeem the world; he is coming for Israel. If anyone in Israel is apostate then they are no longer Israel; they are broken off that others may be grafted on.

You are right to connect the Exodus with end times, because the two are book ends. "Come out of her My People" is Israel (and any gentiles grafted in) coming out of Babylon, similar to Israel coming out of Egypt. The only difference is that Christ has prepared a new bride for himself; different from faithless Israel in c. 1500 BC. And the Promised Land which they will enter is the Kingdom of God and he will pour out his spirit upon the people so that they will obey him and keep the law.

Ezekiel 11:15-17 “Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Get far away from the LORD; this land has been given to us as a possession.’ Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.” ’Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’
 
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grafted branch

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@grafted branch I had edit here: I believe the kings of the earth - those that committed fornication with the harlot - is referring to apostate believers - the same group mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. I do not believe this has already occurred, but it is yet to occur.

Naturally I believe the same about the Revelation.:

There are types and antitypes throughout Israel's history and the apocalyptic literature associated with it. There is old Jerusalem and there is new Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem serves as our example, and there is literal Babylon and there is spiritual Babylon - the antithesis of new Jerusalem in the Revelation (Revelation 21:9 and Revelation 17:1)..

So a lot of what was said to literal Babylon and to God's elect in the 6th century B.C is said again to God's elect in the Revelation:

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

Babylon the Great is "gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

The only three entities in the Revelation accused of fornication are Babylon the Great, Jezebel and her followers of the church at Thyatira, and the kings of the earth.

So Babylon the Great is full of fornication, but "there shall in no way enter into new Jerusalem anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Revelation 21:27).

The type: Literal Babylon. the antitype: Babylon the Great (the same language is used):

Revelation 18:6 (see Jeremiah 50:29); Revelation 17:1 (see Jeremiah 51:13); Revelation 18:21 (see Jeremiah 51:63-64); Revelation 18:3-4 (see Jeremiah 51:6-8); Revelation 18:4 (see Jeremiah 51:45).

It's precisely because the same language is used for both type and antitype that so many Christians today conflate the type with the antitype, and it's also no wonder that the same metaphor used to describe literal Babylon's destruction is also used in the Revelation. I believe the stars that fall from heaven are a reference to apostate saints, and the kings of the earth who commit fornication the same, and their teachers, and I believe that the following is the type of the man of sin and what is coming:

Daniel 8:10-11
10 And it (the little horn) became great, even to the host of heaven. And it made fall some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself, even to the ruler of the host, and the daily sacrifice was taken away by him, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

I believe the above indeed does refer to Antiochis IV Epiphanes and his attack on the saints of his day, and the apostasy of the Jews of the day. It's history. It's written in the books of the Maccabees and in Josephus also. We are Israel. Old Jerusalem is the type. New Jerusalem is the antitype (Hebrews 12:22). These things are written for our instruction (2 Timothy 3:16).
In Revelation 21:24 the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into New Jerusalem. Clearly here the kings of the earth are not apostate.

Since the kings of the earth are seen in both the apostate and pure condition I can see where you are associating them with the falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Do you think those who fall away in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ultimately end up in New Jerusalem or are they unsaved? If they are unsaved then it would seem they don’t follow the pattern of the kings of the earth which end up in New Jerusalem.
 
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grafted branch

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Thank you for the correction.

@grafted branch I think you posted a good question, so I appreciate this thread. It got me thinking a lot about it.

To answer your question: the kings of the earth would be those who are not of God. I won't say 'unbelievers' because whether someone claims to be Messianic or Jewish; Catholic; Protestant or any other denomination they may believe in God, but on an individual level they may not obey God. The kings of the earth are those who do not obey God. These are the ten toes of Daniel and the ten kings of Revelation, who have no kingdom as of yet, but receive authority with the Beast for one hour.

I don't believe that the harlot of Babylon is apostate Israel because Christ is returning to redeem Israel from the world. Christ isn't coming to save the world or redeem the world; he is coming for Israel. If anyone in Israel is apostate then they are no longer Israel; they are broken off that others may be grafted on.

You are right to connect the Exodus with end times, because the two are book ends. "Come out of her My People" is Israel (and any gentiles grafted in) coming out of Babylon, similar to Israel coming out of Egypt. The only difference is that Christ has prepared a new bride for himself; different from faithless Israel in c. 1500 BC. And the Promised Land which they will enter is the Kingdom of God and he will pour out his spirit upon the people so that they will obey him and keep the law.

Ezekiel 11:15-17 “Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Get far away from the LORD; this land has been given to us as a possession.’ Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.” ’Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’
In Revelation 21:24 the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into New Jerusalem. Clearly here the kings of the earth are not apostate.
I would like to ask you also, why are the kings of the earth seen in New Jerusalem if they are not of Gid?
 
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Zao is life

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The kings of the earth are those who do not obey God. These are the ten toes of Daniel and the ten kings of Revelation, who have no kingdom as of yet, but receive authority with the Beast for one hour.
Those ten kings are the ones who we are told will "hate the harlot, render her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire" (Revelation 17:16-17). Are they the same as the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and wailed over her when they saw her destruction (Revelation 18:9-10)?
 
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Zao is life

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In Revelation 21:24 the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into New Jerusalem. Clearly here the kings of the earth are not apostate.
There are faithful saints and there are apostates. The apostates seen in the 6th seal are not going to be seen in new Jerusalem afterwards.
 
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DavidPT

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A partial list

Good-Revelation 1:5, Revelation 21:34, Psalm 89:27

Bad-Revelation 6:15, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19, Isaiah 24:21.

It sounds like you and I might be on the same page regarding that. Maybe not on the same page in regards to the timing of some of those events, but on the same page in regards to there being 2 sets of kings of the earth, one good the other bad.
 
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grafted branch

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It sounds like you and I might be on the same page regarding that. Maybe not on the same page in regards to the timing of some of those events, but on the same page in regards to there being 2 sets of kings of the earth, one good the other bad.
Yea, I’m just not sure on what to do with the kings of the earth. I agree it could be two sets of kings or it could be one set of kings that are apostate and then become saved.
 
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RDKirk

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We belong to our Lord. We are His property.

If someone destroys us, the vengeance belongs to the Lord, not to us. The Lord's vengeance is not in our behalf, it's on the Lord's own behalf, because it is He who was wronged, it was His loss.
 
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DavidPT

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or it could be one set of kings that are apostate and then become saved.

While that could be the case, what about the ones in Revelation 19:19 in the beast's armies, and what then happens to them? Can't see any of them eventually becoming saved.
 
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grafted branch

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While that could be the case, what about the ones in Revelation 19:19 in the beast's armies, and what then happens to them? Can't see any of them eventually becoming saved.
I was just going to bring that up then I saw you posted it.

Absolutely, this verse needs to be considered when trying to understand the kings of the earth. Whoever this group is, they don’t seem to have a direct correlation elsewhere in the Bible.
 
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Benjamin Müller

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In Revelation 21:24 the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into New Jerusalem. Clearly here the kings of the earth are not apostate.
I would like to ask you also, why are the kings of the earth seen in New Jerusalem if they are not of Gid?

I believe the New Jerusalem is after the millennium and after Satan is loosed for a season. After the Gog Magog War (I don't believe that war is presently but in roughly 1000 years) And after Satan and the Angels are judged.

During the millennium Christ is setting up God's Kingdom; the New Jerusalem is when God the Father comes and earth becomes the New Heaven. Where everyone is converted into Saints. God the Father cannot come to Earth until all evil is put away. So the kings of the earth at the time of New Jerusalem are simply kings over nations on earth. It says the righteous shall inherit the earth, not heaven. (Psalm 37:29) Heaven is coming here. And that is the New Jerusalem.
Those ten kings are the ones who we are told will "hate the harlot, render her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire" (Revelation 17:16-17). Are they the same as the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and wailed over her when they saw her destruction (Revelation 18:9-10)?

A just critique. And after thinking about it more Kings of the Earth is most likely any king/dom which dealt with Babylon economically and politically. I always thought this included the ten kings, but you've made a solid point which I now need to reevaluate from my previous assumptions.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 it appears (according to my understanding) that the Medes a.k.a Russia and Slavic allies (The Kings of the East) invade Rome. I highly recommend reading both chapters because there's too much worth quoting.

My gut feeling is that Babylon gets nuked. When you read about how her desolation occurs in 1 hour--which 'hour' can actually mean in a moment, if you look it up in Strong's--and the smoke of her burning, which sounds like it could be hinting at the iconic mushroom cloud. But anyway, just like when Americans bombed Hiroshima, pilot Robert Lewis was quoted as to have said or at least thought "My God, what have we done".

God puts it in the hearts of the kings and beast to burn her with fire. So, yes, you make a valid argument that it's contradictory and maybe the ten kings will have no remorse about it and the kings of the earth who are bewailing are are not the ten.

I'm going to bring that subject up with my Dad later and get his input. He's more well-versed than I am.

Isaiah 33:1 Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed. [NIV]

The New Living Translation identifies the destroyer as Assyrian, and the Book of Nahum identifies the Beast as Assyrian so it appears the Beast Power ends up betrayed. So we have in prophesy 1.) Russia invading Rome 2.) The Assyrian Betrayed 3.) Rome Burning With Fire. (Maybe not in that order and according to my best understanding, obviously that's up for debate among various groups)

The question is: does the Pope make an agreement with Eastern Empires, i.e: Russia and China, similar to when the Vatican made a deal with Japan when Catholic populations fell under their control during WW2.

A little over four months after Pearl Harbor, the Holy See established diplomatic relations with Japan. The U.S. State Department as well Great Britain criticized the Vatican’s acceptance of diplomatic relations with Japan. With Pearl Harbor fresh in the minds of Americans, even Catholic Americans supported the State Department’s view that such an alliance was ‘deplorable’.

So I've wondered if the Pope will make similar agreements with Russia and China during end-times.

The Catholic Church is both a political and religious entity. Her allegiance remains with the Beast Power for a time. But if Catholics are being absorbed by the Chinese and/or Russians, for the sake of ‘her children’ and ‘pursuing peace’, will the Vatican make a backdoor deal, as with what happened with Japan? /speculation not fact

The League of Cognac is yet another instance in which a pope made back-door dealings. With a French defeat in the Italian War of 1521 and the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, growing in power, Pope Clement VII perceived that Charles V wished to dominate the Catholic Church and Italy.

The Pope, behind the Emperor’s back, formed an alliance with Charles V’s arch-enemy: King Francis I of France (as well as the Republic of Venice, Florence and Duchy of Milan) in order to resist the Habsburg Dynasty in Italy. This betrayal led to the Sacking of Rome in 1527 by Charles V mutinous troops.

I don't know the how's and what-nots, but what I do know is that the Medes/Russia invades Rome/Babylon; at some point it appears that the Beast Power is betrayed; and Rome/Babylon gets nuked. Could the Russians lay siege and take control of Rome? If the Beast loses the Vatican, does this prompt the kings and beast to just nuke it? Do they hate the harlot for making back door deals; do they hate the harlot because Russians are there? I don't know.

--

In regards to Revelation 19:19, God isn't saving the whole world yet. I always viewed this as we're in the middle of WW3; all countries are against each other, all kings of the earth and their armies are involved in the world war and then Jesus Christ returns. And what is he going to preach? He's going to say, "The kingdoms of men have become the Kingdoms of Christ".

How many people believe in aliens? How many people will think that Jesus Christ and His Saints are alien invaders and here they're saying they've come to take over the world! All the nations of the world are now unified to stop this alien invasion. China wants to rule the world; but so does Russia, but so does Germany and who's this alien invader trying to usurp our kingdoms? And there will be an incentive to form a truce to deal with the "alien", and Christ of course destroys them.

The kings and armies of the world will be brought up in the second resurrection and at that time will have their chance to be saved. But as of right now God is only saving a few, and if we go be Revelation, only 144,000--the first-fruits who have been redeemed from the world. That's it. The rest will be saved during the final harvest.



--

I feel like I might be way off topic. So I'm sorry if I'm not following the flow of the thread. Just ignore me if that's the case.
 
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Zao is life

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I believe the New Jerusalem is after the millennium and after Satan is loosed for a season. After the Gog Magog War (I don't believe that war is presently but in roughly 1000 years) And after Satan and the Angels are judged.

During the millennium Christ is setting up God's Kingdom; the New Jerusalem is when God the Father comes and earth becomes the New Heaven. Where everyone is converted into Saints. God the Father cannot come to Earth until all evil is put away. So the kings of the earth at the time of New Jerusalem are simply kings over nations on earth. It says the righteous shall inherit the earth, not heaven. (Psalm 37:29) Heaven is coming here. And that is the New Jerusalem.


A just critique. And after thinking about it more Kings of the Earth is most likely any king/dom which dealt with Babylon economically and politically. I always thought this included the ten kings, but you've made a solid point which I now need to reevaluate from my previous assumptions.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 it appears (according to my understanding) that the Medes a.k.a Russia and Slavic allies (The Kings of the East) invade Rome. I highly recommend reading both chapters because there's too much worth quoting.

My gut feeling is that Babylon gets nuked. When you read about how her desolation occurs in 1 hour--which 'hour' can actually mean in a moment, if you look it up in Strong's--and the smoke of her burning, which sounds like it could be hinting at the iconic mushroom cloud. But anyway, just like when Americans bombed Hiroshima, pilot Robert Lewis was quoted as to have said or at least thought "My God, what have we done".

God puts it in the hearts of the kings and beast to burn her with fire. So, yes, you make a valid argument that it's contradictory and maybe the ten kings will have no remorse about it and the kings of the earth who are bewailing are are not the ten.

I'm going to bring that subject up with my Dad later and get his input. He's more well-versed than I am.

Isaiah 33:1 Woe to you, destroyer, you who have not been destroyed! Woe to you, betrayer, you who have not been betrayed! When you stop destroying, you will be destroyed; when you stop betraying, you will be betrayed. [NIV]

The New Living Translation identifies the destroyer as Assyrian, and the Book of Nahum identifies the Beast as Assyrian so it appears the Beast Power ends up betrayed. So we have in prophesy 1.) Russia invading Rome 2.) The Assyrian Betrayed 3.) Rome Burning With Fire. (Maybe not in that order and according to my best understanding, obviously that's up for debate among various groups)

The question is: does the Pope make an agreement with Eastern Empires, i.e: Russia and China, similar to when the Vatican made a deal with Japan when Catholic populations fell under their control during WW2.

A little over four months after Pearl Harbor, the Holy See established diplomatic relations with Japan. The U.S. State Department as well Great Britain criticized the Vatican’s acceptance of diplomatic relations with Japan. With Pearl Harbor fresh in the minds of Americans, even Catholic Americans supported the State Department’s view that such an alliance was ‘deplorable’.

So I've wondered if the Pope will make similar agreements with Russia and China during end-times.

The Catholic Church is both a political and religious entity. Her allegiance remains with the Beast Power for a time. But if Catholics are being absorbed by the Chinese and/or Russians, for the sake of ‘her children’ and ‘pursuing peace’, will the Vatican make a backdoor deal, as with what happened with Japan? /speculation not fact

The League of Cognac is yet another instance in which a pope made back-door dealings. With a French defeat in the Italian War of 1521 and the Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, growing in power, Pope Clement VII perceived that Charles V wished to dominate the Catholic Church and Italy.

The Pope, behind the Emperor’s back, formed an alliance with Charles V’s arch-enemy: King Francis I of France (as well as the Republic of Venice, Florence and Duchy of Milan) in order to resist the Habsburg Dynasty in Italy. This betrayal led to the Sacking of Rome in 1527 by Charles V mutinous troops.

I don't know the how's and what-nots, but what I do know is that the Medes/Russia invades Rome/Babylon; at some point it appears that the Beast Power is betrayed; and Rome/Babylon gets nuked. Could the Russians lay siege and take control of Rome? If the Beast loses the Vatican, does this prompt the kings and beast to just nuke it? Do they hate the harlot for making back door deals; do they hate the harlot because Russians are there? I don't know.

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In regards to Revelation 19:19, God isn't saving the whole world yet. I always viewed this as we're in the middle of WW3; all countries are against each other, all kings of the earth and their armies are involved in the world war and then Jesus Christ returns. And what is he going to preach? He's going to say, "The kingdoms of men have become the Kingdoms of Christ".

How many people believe in aliens? How many people will think that Jesus Christ and His Saints are alien invaders and here they're saying they've come to take over the world! All the nations of the world are now unified to stop this alien invasion. China wants to rule the world; but so does Russia, but so does Germany and who's this alien invader trying to usurp our kingdoms? And there will be an incentive to form a truce to deal with the "alien", and Christ of course destroys them.

The kings and armies of the world will be brought up in the second resurrection and at that time will have their chance to be saved. But as of right now God is only saving a few, and if we go be Revelation, only 144,000--the first-fruits who have been redeemed from the world. That's it. The rest will be saved during the final harvest.



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I feel like I might be way off topic. So I'm sorry if I'm not following the flow of the thread. Just ignore me if that's the case.
No to the last sentence. Your job here is to make your views known. That's what a forum like this one is for. Me and you are poles apart on how we interpret the Old Testament prophetic books though. And luckily it's way too late at night in my part of the planet for me to get into any of that, so your endurance will not be tested toni .. this afternoon? (Not sure where you are or what your time is).
 
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YahuahSaves

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I don't believe that the harlot of Babylon is apostate Israel because Christ is returning to redeem Israel from the world. Christ isn't coming to save the world or redeem the world; he is coming for Israel. If anyone in Israel is apostate then they are no longer Israel; they are broken off that others may be grafted on.
Concerning the Cross and the sacrifice Jesus made:

John 3:17

17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

He then showed us what it would take to follow him in Matthew 10:34-39
 
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YahuahSaves

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Do you think those who fall away in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ultimately end up in New Jerusalem or are they unsaved? If they are unsaved then it would seem they don’t follow the pattern of the kings of the earth which end up in New Jerusalem.
"There certainly is a falling away from truth during these end times, but the falling away that Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians 2 occurred before the Son of Perdition appeared in the 6th century." Source
 
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YahuahSaves

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My gut feeling is that Babylon gets nuked. When you read about how her desolation occurs in 1 hour--which 'hour' can actually mean in a moment, if you look it up in Strong's--and the smoke of her burning, which sounds like it could be hinting at the iconic mushroom cloud.
Doesn't sound too far off. I'm beginning to think there's a ton of political symbolism in revelation.

"So the “fire, smoke, brimstone” is a manifest allusion to artillery and gunpowder; which were the main engines used by the Turks.

“For their power is in their mouth and in their tails” – The cannons shot forth with fire and smoke, to take down cavalry, and battle the walls of fortified cities." SOURCE
 
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YahuahSaves

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The kings and armies of the world will be brought up in the second resurrection and at that time will have their chance to be saved. But as of right now God is only saving a few, and if we go be Revelation, only 144,000--the first-fruits who have been redeemed from the world. That's it. The rest will be saved during the final harvest.
"144,000 is a symbolic number, reflecting the 12 tribes. God uses the number 12 as an organization number, 12 tribes, 12 disciples."

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”” Revelation 7:9

"We are not to think that God only marked and protected 144,000. John tells us that there was a great multitude that no man could number." SOURCE
 
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Benjamin Müller

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"We are not to think that God only marked and protected 144,000. John tells us that there was a great multitude that no man could number." SOURCE
I believe the great multitude are those who come out of the Great Tribulation but are not changed into spirit. Christ is setting up His Father's kingdom and I take 144,000 as a literal number that expresses the number of offices in His government to be fulfilled, with 12,000 offices per tribe; and there are 144,000 individuals redeemed from the earth and turned into spirit and they shall reign with Christ. The harvest of the first-fruits are always a small number. Christ calls his flock a little flock.

People talk about predestination, but I would say it's not people, per se, who are predestined, but that there are offices predestined and those offices need to be filled. That's why it's written "Many are called, but few are chosen", and "In my Father's house are many mansions". And Christ will come to receive us unto Him. God calls people, but they may not be chosen. And by time we get to Revelation it's the Called, the Chosen and the Faithful.

So a chosen person could lose their crown if they become unfaithful.

The great multitude are still physical people, but they are converted people. So I'll agree that there are people who are protected during the tribulation, but these didn't attain to the election of the saints, but they are called God's people. God can work with them. And God pours His Holy Spirit upon them. They will live as physical individuals during the millennium, and during that time will work to overcome themselves.

I believe the end goal for all mankind is to be turned from mortal to immortal; from human to divine; from physical to spiritual; flesh to spirit. And all people have this opportunity, but God chose to make us physical first because the physical world is changeable. The spirit is unchangeable; it is cemented in its ways. "I am the Lord, I change not". If someone is high in God's kingdom and then decides to rebel . . . .

But making us physical first and sifting the wheat from the chaff ensures such a thing doesn't happen.

But we can agree to disagree. I'm just explaining my view. Whether it's right or wrong, time will reveal; ultimately my focus is to be obedient and to overcome and be worthy of escaping all things and hopefully entering the Kingdom of God--if God is willing to have me, of course--for the goodness of God leads us to repentance and He's my only hope for a higher calling.

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To add to Babylon getting nuked, the other curious statement is in Revelation 18:1 which states the earth is illuminated with the angel's glory. Sounds sort of like the atomic flash. And 'they stand afar off for fear of her torment" -- is that torment radiation fallout? 18:4 warns to come out of her lest you receive of her plagues. I mean what else is there to fear? Fire can be frightening I suppose, but there seems to imply a greater concern over her burning than just fire. This fire comes with torment and plagues, which sounds like whatever happens to Babylon it's a unique type of burning.
 
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