Is it Biblically correct to ask God to avenge for you when you have been wronged?

[grafted branch]

IMO, the key to figuring out when it is meaning that they cry out like that, is found in the fact that it is when they are told to rest yet a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Since it doesn't seem reasonable that a little season might mean a great length of time, such as thousands of years, therefore, it seems more probable that it is likely meaning 42 months, which would be a little season in comparison to thousands of years.

In my view, maybe not in your view, once this little season is fulfilled, I am convinced that that is the end of saints being martyred, as in, no saints will ever be martyred again. Assuming I'm correct, one for sure can't place the time of this little season in the first century or something. I simply do not see it making one bit of sense, that once this little season is fulfilled, there will still be saints being martyred after that. Clearly then, or at least to me anyway, this little season fits in the final days of this present age.

I think the key is that they should be killed as they were, that is not just killed but killed as they were.

In Revelation 6:8, the 4th seal, it says power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth to kill. Who ever you think “them” is that were given this power and the method of killing, sword, hunger, death, and beasts of the earth is the way those at the 5th seal are killed.

If “them” are no longer alive then there will no longer be anyone killed as those in Revelation 6:10-11 were by “them”.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Thanks for the link, I did take a look at it.

I'm not totally sure of the theory... it will take some digging into history to see if the claim is correct. But it certainly makes sense to see revelation as symbolism for politics.

 

[grafted branch]

I'm not totally sure of the theory... it will take some digging into history to see if the claim is correct. But it certainly makes sense to see revelation as symbolism for politics.

Yes, I tend to think Revelation is mostly about apostate Israel and the politics of the first century.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Yes, it is Biblical.

But the real question is: is it Christian?

And I would say, yes. Christians can ask to be avenged, but it's an area one should tread carefully. Because there's a fine line between wanting justice and wishing ill-will. We are to pray for our enemies and if we have something against our brother we are to leave the gift at the altar and first be reconciled to them. But what if we cannot come to a reconciliation? If someone has wronged you seriously, and I mean seriously, (not some petty school-yard drama) then a Christian might pray, remember what they've done and avenge me according to your will. It is an expression of being upset; you want justice and there's no sin in desiring justice. But such a desire should not come with a grudge.

Ephesians 4:26 "Be angry, yet do not sin."

To be angry at injustice is not a sin, but to hate an individual for their injustice is a sin.

How often are men wronged and they take their case before a human judge? God is our ultimate judge. To pray to be avenged is nothing more than presenting your case before the highest court. But after you present your case, a Christian is to leave it alone; you move on. It's in God's hands. Christians can pray and open up a court case, but it's not their place to tell the judge "I want $1,000,000 and to see him hang". God weighs the penalty and the compensation. To tell God what He should do to the perpetrator is wishing ill-will and possibly murder. And then how are you the better man or woman?

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

David said this to Saul:
1 Samuel 24:12 May the Lord judge between me and you, may the Lord avenge me against you, but my hand shall not be against you.

Genesis 18:20-21 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”


So, yes, Christians can ask to be avenged, but Christians should be mature about this. Before you go to the highest court and stand before the highest Judge a Christian ought to strive for reconciliation. What if you present your case and God finds you at fault? So there should be a certain weariness of taking every grievance before God. Because if you're to blame, what type of discplinary action will He enact on you?

If you have weighed the entire circumstances, if you know yourself to be innocent and if that injustice is so great that has been don against you then there is nothing sinful in presenting your case before God. But after you present the case before God, you leave it in His hands and move on, and you don't check in on the status of your lawsuit. Once you have said your peace; that is it. Your case is closed.

 

[eleos1954]

No vengeance is up to the LORD

Romans 12:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

 

[Zao is life]

Thanks for your explanation.
There is one thing about Revelation 6:10 that doesn’t make sense to me.

When I get to heaven I don’t anticipate asking Jesus who his mother was or what city he was born in. I think 99.9% of all Christians know the answers to these questions because the Bible tells us and we believe it to be absolutely true.

When martyrs get to heaven apparently they are going to ask how long till they are avenged knowing fully well what the answer already is because Revelation 6:11 tells us. I think logic tells us the 5th seal takes place prior to or at the time of the writing of Revelation.

I have the same view that @DavidPT expressed in his post #18. Personally I don't even believe that what is written about the martyrs crying out is meant to be taken literally, but to give us a picture: martyrdom, which will be the picture in the reader's mind as he reads about the vision John saw in the next seal.

 

[grafted branch]

So, yes, Christians can ask to be avenged, but Christians should be mature about this. Before you go to the highest court and stand before the highest Judge a Christian ought to strive for reconciliation. What if you present your case and God finds you at fault? So there should be a certain weariness of taking every grievance before God. Because if you're to blame, what type of discplinary action will He enact on you?

The Lord’s Prayer starts out with “our Father which art in heaven”. To me this doesn’t seem like we are addressing Him as judge here.

However in John 12:31 it does say Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Would you say judgment is currently taking place? And would this judgment also include the prince of this world being bound in some kind of sense?

 

[grafted branch]

I have the same view that @DavidPT expressed in his post #18. Personally I don't even believe that what is written about the martyrs crying out is meant to be taken literally, but to give us a picture: martyrdom, which will be the picture in the reader's mind as he reads about the vision John saw in the next seal.

I don’t have any issues taking this as non-literal. Would you also go so far as to say the sun being black as sackcloth, the moon as blood, and the stars falling at the 6th seal are non-literal also?

 

[Zao is life]

I don’t have any issues taking this as non-literal. Would you also go so far as to say the sun being black as sackcloth, the moon as blood, and the stars falling at the 6th seal are non-literal also?

Yes! And this is the only common ground I have with Preterism and Partial Preterism.

The sun, the moon and the stars are a metaphor for rulers (sun and moon) and saints (the stars) whenever they are used in apocalyptic/prophetic biblical literature. They are never literal.

Simile: Genesis 15:5; Genesis 22:17

Wise and faithful saints are like (simile) shining stars (compare Genesis 22:17 with Daniel 12:3).

Metaphor: Genesis 37:9-10; Revelation 12:1

The prophets often use the sun, moon and stars for simile and metaphor (see also Genesis 1:16; Psalm 89:35-37; and Psalm 136:7-9).

The children of Naphtali and Zebulun who fought against Sisera, captain of Jabin's army (Judges 4:6-7) are called "the stars in their courses" (metaphor) fighting against enemy armies in Judges 5:20. (we are also told that the saints are "in the heavens" in Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:1-4; and Ephesians 1:3).

Daniel 8:9-10 is most certainly talking about Antiochus IV Epiphanes' war against the saints, and Antiochus is most definitely a type of the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

Metaphor: Psalm 75:8; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 14:18.

Metaphor: Isaiah 13:8-10; Isaiah 13:13; Isaiah 34:4; Isaiah 34:8-10 - and those verses are talking about the destruction of Babylon, in the 6th century B.C. The same metaphor used in Isaiah 34:4 and Isaiah 34:8-10 is also used in Revelation 6:13-14 and Revelation 14:10-11.

There is also often hyperbole mixed in with the metaphor.

The fact that prophecies referring to the destruction of ancient Babylon (the type) use the same metaphor also used in the Revelation to describe the destruction of the beast or the kingdoms of this world (the antitype) causes most Christians to completely conflate prophecies talking only to the type with prophecies talking only to the antitype, and so they drag prophecies out of the Old Testament that have already been fulfilled, and drop them into the Revelation.

 

[Zao is life]

I don’t have any issues taking this as non-literal. Would you also go so far as to say the sun being black as sackcloth, the moon as blood, and the stars falling at the 6th seal are non-literal also?

I replied in post #29 but now I also have a question for you:

Would you go so far as to say that the kings of the earth mentioned in the 6th seal are the same kings of the earth identified with that title in Revelation 1:5-6 and mentioned also in Revelation 21:24? And the stars of heaven are metaphor for saints in the exact same way that they are metaphor for the saints in Daniel 8:9-10 which is referring metaphorically to Antiochus trampling God's elect underfoot?

 

[grafted branch]

Would you go so far as to say that the kings of the earth mentioned in the 6th seal are the same kings of the earth identified with that title in Revelation 1:5-6 and mentioned also in Revelation 21:24?

Well, I’m going to be honest with you here. I haven’t done a thorough study on “the kings of the earth”. I know this term is used to depict both good and bad.



A partial list

Good-Revelation 1:5, Revelation 21:34, Psalm 89:27

Bad-Revelation 6:15, Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19, Isaiah 24:21.



I’ve thought about making a thread on this topic but again I haven’t done enough work on researching this yet.

And the stars of heaven are metaphor for saints in the exact same way that they are metaphor for the saints in Daniel 8:9-10 which is referring metaphorically to Antiochus trampling God's elect underfoot?

As far a the stars representing saints, I do think that’s possible but I also think in some places the word “saint” is referring to a group of people that does contain some unsaved people.

For example in Deuteronomy 33:2-3 the word saints is referring to the entire nation of Israel, not just believers.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

The Lord’s Prayer starts out with “our Father which art in heaven”. To me this doesn’t seem like we are addressing Him as judge here.

However in John 12:31 it does say Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Would you say judgment is currently taking place? And would this judgment also include the prince of this world being bound in some kind of sense?

I accept a correction on a matter of semantics. 'Avenge' has violent connotations, since vengeance is usually a violent response. Asking to be 'avenged' may not be the proper word, rather, asking God to arbitrate your case, I think would be the appropriate request--I see nothing unrighteous in that. An arbitrator is a neutral third party, so if you present a grievance to God, you accept that judgment may not be in your favor. But to ask for vengeance is asking God to take your side, and God is not a respecter of persons.

But continuing: Yes, we are addressing our Father, but our Father is also a judge. If we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and God is Father of us all, when we go to Him with an issue against out brother, it is similar to earthly sibling rivalry and going to mom or dad to arbitrate. But in the Lord's prayer we say 'you're will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. So it's according to God's will, not our will, on how judgment should be meted out.

2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

A Psalm of David 28:4 "Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert."

You see at various points in the Psalms petitions asking God to render judgment according to a wicked person's deeds.

It's our responsibility to live peaceable with all men, to make reconciliation with each other and to even accept loss for the price of peace. But just as Paul suffered much evil, he was in a sense, calling on God as arbitrator in the matter with Alexander the Coppersmith.

If I were to pray regarding such a thing, I would simply say something along the lines of, remember what so-and-so has done and let them see what their actions have done to me. And then I may or may not proceed to ask God for help, strength or a blessing for my loss or pain. But that's it. Remember and repay are the only two words that seem reasonable enough to use before God when asking to arbitrate a matter.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

@grafted branch

I was thinking about the verse which you quoted, and it might be worth noting Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her [Babylon], O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced for you His judgment against her.

The vengeance which the saints are waiting for is pronounced against Babylon, which is a city, not a person. Yes, people make up the city and the Babylonian system, but individual people are not what's being addressed in that vengeance.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

This question came up on another thread in regards to Revelation 6:10 where the souls are asking the question of how long till their blood is avenged for. I’m specifically asking about praying for this on earth, not in heaven. Regardless of any end time position, I would like to see what others think.

I find issue with the word avenge, but King David...granted, OT...asks God to "contend, O Lord, with those who contend against me.

 

[grafted branch]

@grafted branch

I was thinking about the verse which you quoted, and it might be worth noting Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her [Babylon], O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced for you His judgment against her.

The vengeance which the saints are waiting for is pronounced against Babylon, which is a city, not a person. Yes, people make up the city and the Babylonian system, but individual people are not what's being addressed in that vengeance.

I would like to hear your view on what Babylon is. The interesting thing to me is that from Revelation 18:9 there are those who have committed fornication with her and are bewailing and lamenting for her (Babylon). I don’t think these people are saved, they lament for Babylon, and yet they are obviously not destroyed with Babylon.

I personally think Babylon represents apostate Israel in the first century but I also do realize it could foreshadow something else.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Benjamin Müller]

I would like to hear your view on what Babylon is. The interesting thing to me is that from Revelation 18:9 there are those who have committed fornication with her and are bewailing and lamenting for her (Babylon). I don’t think these people are saved, they lament for Babylon, and yet they are obviously not destroyed with Babylon.

I personally think Babylon represents apostate Israel in the first century but I also do realize it could foreshadow something else.

What are your thoughts on this?

Without going into long doctrines, I believe the harlot of Babylon is the Catholic Church and the city is Rome. A restored Holy Roman Empire are the kings who have committed fornication with her.

I just thought of this:

Psalm 149:5-8 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

God gives the saints authority to exercise judgment/vengeance on heathen and kings. So, I'm not sure, what to make of that at the moment.

 

[YahuahSaves]

The Lord’s Prayer starts out with “our Father which art in heaven”. To me this doesn’t seem like we are addressing Him as judge here

A counselor is another term for a lawyer, but it's also Jesus who will judge.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name will be called
“Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

John 5:22-23

22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

Would you say judgment is currently taking place?

I would.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I don’t have any issues taking this as non-literal. Would you also go so far as to say the sun being black as sackcloth, the moon as blood, and the stars falling at the 6th seal are non-literal also?

I would say that's political also.

 

[grafted branch]

I would.

Ok thanks for that response, you believe judgment is currently taking place.

I’m not trying to debate whether we should view the law as valid or not, rather I’m trying to look at the views of others to see where they stand.

So far it appears there is a consensus between believing we are still under the law and believing it’s biblical to ask God to avenge or at least arbitrate for us.

Do you believe the law is still valid?

 

[Zao is life]

For example in Deuteronomy 33:2-3 the word saints is referring to the entire nation of Israel, not just believers.

The same goes for the kings of the earth in the Revelation. Those who commit fornication with the harlot, and those who do not. Those who apostatize in 2 Thessalonians 2, and those who do not. We are Israel.