Is it better to raise children without religion?

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
Still a negative definition.

Not having that worry is a positive thing. But I could also say you get a sense of increased appreciation of your own efforts and place in the world.

When I look at where I am in life I know it’s because of my intrinsic qualities (with a large side order of luck) that have got me here.

o_mlly · Jan 4, 2024

Larnievc said:
Not having that worry is a positive thing.

I assume the above implies that an education with a Christian orientation creates unhealthy anxieties. Is that correct? If so, what are those unhealthy anxieties that exist in those who have a Christian education? (I limit the class of religiously educated to Christians.)

Larnievc said:
When I look at where I am in life I know it’s because of my intrinsic qualities (with a large side order of luck) that have got me here.

(Defining "intrinsic qualities" as including instinctive behaviors.)

How does one know that one's "intrinsic qualities" are good rather than bad?

Are not greed, lust, envy, sloth, pride, wrath and gluttony "intrinsic human qualities"?

Did not, for instance, Capone's or Manson's or Bundy's "intrinsic qualities" at moments in their lives put them where they willed to be?

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
How does one know that one's "intrinsic qualities" are good rather than bad?

Because they got me to a place in life where I'm content. I have an interesting job, lots of free time, a wonderful wife, a great son. I must have done something right.

Edit: on mature reflection I think I can put it down to leading a blameless life.

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
I assume the above implies that an education with a Christian orientation creates unhealthy anxieties.

If you worry about not acting in the correct Christian way or else spend eternity in Hell then yeah, that's an unhealthy anxiety. Anxiety has a long term health and achievement implication that is well understood. Not having that worry is a positive thing.

o_mlly · Jan 4, 2024

Larnievc said:
Because they got me to a place in life where I'm content. I have an interesting job, lots of free time, a wonderful wife, a great son. I must have done something right.

Does such an attitude also indicate that Capone, Bundy, or Manson having felt contentment in that the ends they sought and achieved justified their means?

Larnievc said:
If you worry about not acting in the correct Christian way or else spend eternity in Hell then yeah, that's an unhealthy anxiety. Anxiety has a long term health and achievement implication that is well understood. Not having that worry is a positive thing.

What ways do you think Christianity proposes as good that constrain you from achieving your ultimate desire to be content?

essentialsaltes · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
What is a positive definition of a "secular upbringing"?

You seem to be playing a pointless word game, like asking for a 'positive' definition of a teetotalling lifestyle or veganism.

A teetotalling lifestyle is nothing other than a lifestyle without booze.
A vegan menu is nothing other than a menu without meat or animal products.
A secular upbringing is nothing other than an upbringing without participation in religion.

They are all distinguished by the absence of something. So what?

o_mlly · Jan 4, 2024

essentialsaltes said:
You seem to be playing a pointless word game ...

If you think so then do not participate.

Defining something by showing what it is not is called defining by negation. A thing can only be understood by explanations what it is.

essentialsaltes · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
A thing can only be understood by explanations what it is.

Are you unable to understand what veganism is?

PloverWing · Jan 4, 2024

Fantine said:
This article says studies show it is.
According to multiple reports, research has shown that a secular upbringing may be healthier for children. According to a 2010 Duke University study, kids raised this way display less susceptibility to racism and peer pressure, and are “less vengeful, less nationalistic, less militaristic, less authoritarian, and more tolerant, on average, than religious adults.” But the list of benefits doesn’t stop there.
I'm suspicious of the study. While I think that the religious right might be promoting vengeance, nationalism, militarism, and authoritarianism, and while I think that all those character traits are negative, I think that a kinder, gentler, more progressive religious faith provides a good ethical framework for adulthood and beyond.
What do you think?

If the measure is ethical behavior, then I'd expect children raised in a nonreligious household that modelled excellent ethics to do better than children raised in a Christian household that modelled crappy ethics.

The Duke University study ("Why Don't We Practice What We Preach? A Meta-Analytic Review of Religious Racism") focuses particularly on the religion and practice of white American Christians and on racism. American Christianity has had a troubled history with race since the Colonial Era, and it doesn't surprise me that the study gave us a C- on our report card on that issue.

Certainly, atheists can follow the Golden Rule and teach others to do the same. The question for me as a Christian is why we Christians aren't doing a better job. The Duke study noted that religious culture often divides people into an "in" group and an "out" group, and that may be one factor here.

I still think that Christianity has the potential to teach compassion, and love for enemies, and love for the stranger, the person who isn't in my "in" group. Jesus specifically taught about those things.

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
Does such an attitude also indicate that Capone, Bundy, or Manson having felt contentment in that the ends they sought and achieved justified their means?

No.

o_mlly said:
What ways do you think Christianity proposes as good that constrain you from achieving your ultimate desire to be content?

I'd have to not be pro LGBTQ+.

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
If you think so then do not participate.

Defining something by showing what it is not is called defining by negation. A thing can only be understood by explanations what it is.

What about left and right?

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

PloverWing said:
I still think that Christianity has the potential to teach compassion, and love for enemies, and love for the stranger, the person who isn't in my "in" group. Jesus specifically taught about those things.

To be fair I think anyone can do that by simply doing that. My experience tells me ethics and religion are independent variables.

o_mlly · Jan 4, 2024

Larnievc said:
What about left and right?

Duncan: There is a war on. How is it you are heading west?
Hawkeye: Well, we kinda face to the north and, real sudden-like, turn left.

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
Duncan: There is a war on. How is it you are heading west?
Hawkeye: Well, we kinda face to the north and, real sudden-like, turn left.

Sigh.

Define left in the absence of other directions.

If Duncan was looking for definition of left would Hawkeye's advice be in any way helpful?

Bradskii · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
We were looking for a positive definition.

You know that secular means 'not associated with religion'. So you'll know that anything described as secular will comply with that definition. Why would you deny that?

o_mlly · Jan 4, 2024

Larnievc said:
I'd have to not be pro LGBTQ+.

I believe that there are Christian communities that affirm LGBTQ+.

o_mlly · Jan 4, 2024

Larnievc said:
Sigh.

Define left in the absence of other directions.

If Duncan was looking for definition of left would Hawkeye's advice be in any way helpful?

left

ADJECTIVE

on, toward, or relating to the side of a human body or of a thing that is to the west when the person or thing is facing north.

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
left

ADJECTIVE

on, toward, or relating to the side of a human body or of a thing that is to the west when the person or thing is facing north.

Define left in the absence of other directions.

Larniavc · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
I believe that there are Christian communities that affirm LGBTQ+.

You are aware that one of the big rules on this a Christian site is NOT to affirm LGBTQ+? The Bible clearly says that gay men should be put to death for acting gay consensually. I could not in good conscience agree.

Bradskii · Jan 4, 2024

o_mlly said:
I believe that there are Christian communities that affirm LGBTQ+.

And you could say the same about gay marriage. And abortion. And sex outside of marriage. But if you keep taking out what are generally accepted as being Christian positions on morality so you don't have to worry about them, then you end up with something approaching a secular position.

Is it better to raise children without religion?

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

“Behold, I make all things new.”

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Fact-Based Lifeform

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Fact-Based Lifeform

Episcopalian

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

“Behold, I make all things new.”

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

“Behold, I make all things new.”

“Behold, I make all things new.”

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

"Encourage him to keep talking. He's hilarious."

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

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