Is it a sin to remain poor?

[razzelflabben]

My problem with this whole thread is that we are not answering the question presented in debating the issue. Since LeeS and TheScottsMan seem to be on the same wave length, I would ask you to answer the question I have proposed.

Do you boast to know more than the Lord Jesus Christ on this issue? or have more faith to believe than Christ? If poverty is sinnful, why does God repeatedly ask the rich to give to the poor? He doesn't say go shove scriptures at them to convince them there is something wrong with them. In my bible, God tells us to love the poor, unlift them, edify them, meet thier needs, not bash or prove how Godly you are and how sinnful or lacking of faith they are. Where in this discussion is the love? I have heard a lot of hurtful things being said but very little of substance coming forth. I do think this subject can be addressed and should be addressed but we must all come to the discussion with a heart willing to listen. Willing to change if what we are believing is only a partial truth. I for one would like to continure the forum and see what else I can learn but when hard questions are raised, hard answers must follow. How about answering some so that I can truly understand what you believe.

 

[Rainbow.]

“For the needy is not forgotten for ever, nor for ever does the hope of the poor come to nothing.” [Psalm 9:18] “’For the poor who are plundered, the needy who groan, now will I act,’ says Yahweh.” [Psalms 12:5] “Poor and needy as I am, the Lord has me in mind.” [Psalm 40:17] “For God listens to the poor.” [Psalm 69:33]
So my view is that it is not a sin to be poor. Maybe it would be seen as a sin if you could get yourself out of that situation by hard work etc... and didn't. But if you are poor and there's nothing you can do about it due to your circustances, then no i dont think its a sin.
Proverbs 22:1, 2: “A good reputation should be chosen over great riches, and self-esteem more than silver and gold. The rich and poor stand side by side but Yehowah is the Maker of both.”
The sin is that some people who can, dont give as much as they should.
“And all those believing were gathered at the same place and they had everything in common. They would sell their possessions and went to distributing the money to everyone as each had a need. And daily they continued in harmonious devotions in the Temple area sharing their meals in private homes. They shared food with jubilation and sincerity of heart, praising the God and finding favor with all the people. … Great charity [and a willingness to share] permeated the whole community. For there was no one needy among them, because anyone who owned lands or houses sold them, and they continued bringing the value of the things they sold, placing them before the feet of the apostles. The apostles then distributed to each person as they had need.” [Acts 2:44-47; 4:33-35 NCMM]

 

[razzelflabben]

Wonderfully put Rainbow. Praise the Lord He is kind of heart and gentle, reproaching those who need reproached and blessing those who listen intently to His words.

 

[razzelflabben]

As we prepare for bed, let us dwell on the word of God, submitting wholely to His will.

Matt. 25:31-46
Another hard question, if Jesus knocked on our door this very night, what would His reception be. On this earth, Jesus lived a life of poverty and yet, Matt. says that on the day of judgement, those who have will be asked why didn't you care for me? What will our answer be?
(I love questions, the answers often peirce my heart with my own shortcomings.)

 

[LeeS]

Why is it everytime i read something here you seem so fascinated by everything i write!
You seem to be having the other half of this conversation with yourself and not me, because i have no idea about half of what you are talking about!
" There are lot's of things that I don't yet know about God and I certaintly would not be offended if someone told me something they know that I don't. That just does not make sence to me.

Jesus did everything He needed to do to give us all that He has. If scripture shows us how to protect ourselves from the enemy, do you not want to know how to do that? I know I would"
Where have i once written i know everything there is to know about the word?!
And when there are things i want to know i have many wonderful people i can ask to help me out. Just because i dont agree with what you say doesnt make me unwilling to learn!

Rainbow,

I'm really sorry that you do not consider what I'm saying to be on topic, because I very much believe it is. As far as I know I have responded to your posts the same as anyone else that I am trying to understand. I make points and then you come back with defensiveness and I don't know how to respond to that since I did not feel I was attacking. I ask questions in order to clairfy if I am understanding what I think I am hearing you say and then you attack with insults. Saying, "what kind of Christian are you?"(post #60), then in post #89 you said to me, after I had said that judgement was not my intent, "Jesus loved everyone and did not judge others as you yourself saw fit to do". Then in your post #91 you tell me I'm going around in circles.

No one else on this thread has responded to me with rudeness, and I have posted to them in the same manner. I do have a facination with words, and I will work off of what a person says. And that is so that I know whether I am really hearing what I think I'm hearing. That is for my understanding.

I apologize for being anoying to you by doing this but this is the way I learn.

I am not wallowing in money (I know you did not say I was). I am tired of not being able to pay my bills, not having money to buy food, pay the phone bill, etc. That is not God's provision and it most certaintly is not God making me experience it.

Yes I am learning things through it but I do not believe poverty is from God. (and I know you did not say it was)

LeeS

 

[Rainbow.]

As we prepare for bed, let us dwell on the word of God, submitting wholely to His will.

Matt. 25:31-46
Another hard question, if Jesus knocked on our door this very night, what would His reception be. On this earth, Jesus lived a life of poverty and yet, Matt. says that on the day of judgement, those who have will be asked why didn't you care for me? What will our answer be?
(I love questions, the answers often peirce my heart with my own shortcomings.)

I would hope that Jesus would get a wonderful reception, and if anyone reading these posts decides that maybe they could give a little more to the needy, then Jesus would surely be happy!

 

[razzelflabben]

Amen, isn't that what God wants, that all of us, whether rich, poor, Godly, baby Christian, etc. would be challenged to a more Godly life, a closer walk with Him.

 

[LeeS]

My problem with this whole thread is that we are not answering the question presented in debating the issue. Since LeeS and TheScottsMan seem to be on the same wave length, I would ask you to answer the question I have proposed.

Do you boast to know more than the Lord Jesus Christ on this issue?

I'm sorry that you do not believe I have answered the question. I will try to do better. I boast in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did at Calvary for all.

or have more faith to believe than Christ?

Of course not. I have faith only due to Him.

If poverty is sinnful, why does God repeatedly ask the rich to give to the poor?

I don't recall saying that poverty was sin. Please point out where I said that and I will correct it. It certaintly is not what I believe.

He doesn't say go shove scriptures at them to convince them there is something wrong with them.

Did I say that somewhere too? At the moment I am considered to be poor too. While Jesus said that the poor will always be with us I do not see that as a mandate to be poor. We are called to give up our belonging to the poor, but once our belongings are gone, then what? Is it right for me to moan and groan about how poor I am and how none of the other Christians are obeying Scripture like they are supposed to do? I'm not saying anyone here is doing that but I have seen people do it.

In my bible, God tells us to love the poor, unlift them, edify them, meet thier needs, not bash or prove how Godly you are and how sinnful or lacking of faith they are.

I don't believe I did that anywhere here. If that's what you saw, then I beg your forgiveness. Telling the word to people is needed too. If you buy a fish and give it to the poor today they eat today, but if you teach them how to fish then they can eat everyday. I want to learn how to fish better, not just wait for someone else to hear God and obey better. Not to say that anyone here is doing that. That's just what I have seen a lot of people do.

Where in this discussion is the love?

I don't believe I've left love out of any of my posts. I love everyone and want to see people set free and living as God has called them to. Not just scrapping by and not getting taken care of. Especially since I myself am not in position to help a whole lot. I help where I can but sometimes people want more.

Example: this past yr I had a room mate move in to my home so that I could get some relief financially. The woman and her son were struggling themselves so I charged them less than what it would cost for just one person renting a room, and they had 2 rooms. She complained constantly about everything. She used up all my paper products, spices, and only once bought paper towells because I had no more money to buy more and she and her son had used up two rolls in one week. She threw a fit when it ran out. Then she complained that I was charging her too much money to live there. She drained me. I think I gave out quite a lot. And look how I was treated. I'm sure she told quite a few people of how I was so "unchristian" by charging her rent.

I have heard a lot of hurtful things being said but very little of substance coming forth. I do think this subject can be addressed and should be addressed but we must all come to the discussion with a heart willing to listen. Willing to change if what we are believing is only a partial truth. I for one would like to continure the forum and see what else I can learn but when hard questions are raised, hard answers must follow. How about answering some so that I can truly understand what you believe.

I am trying to do that razzelflabben. But you don't seem to accept my answers. I don't know what else to say. I just know what God has shown me personally regarding my personal situation. I have depended on other people to meet my needs, and only God can do that. I really don't mean to sound unloving, but I would guess that if everybody who is struggling in the same way that I am would be honest they would see where they themselves have contributed to where they are at and should stop blaming God for them being there.

Yes, God uses people. God tells us as people to give. To the best of my ability I am doing that. But I have come to realize that it is God alone who will supply my every need (I'm talking about basic sustanance, not excess) and I have to depend on Him and not someone else.

I must stop my moaning and groaning and wallowing in self pity and believe what He says. "MY GOD SHALL SUPPLY ALL MY NEEDS". Period.

Again, I apologize if you feel this is not answering your question. If you still feel that way perhaps ask it in a different way.

 

[razzelflabben]

Very nice and helpful post in me trying to understand your view LeeS. Thanks

As to the issues you are raising, let me say that it sounds like you are talking about a heart issue. A heart issue is a personal individual thing, not a blanket for all poverty. I know from my own personal situation that we have done nothing to contribute to our poverty and more than should be necessary to overcome it. I have searched my heart many times over on the issue and can say that with clear conviction that oppression is why we are in the ranks of the impoverished and know many others the same way. I do know of those who struggle with finances whether "rich" or "poor" because of a lack of good sterardship but I know as many or more that exercise good stewardship and still have financial problems, some, like us, with big problems. A heart situation is the underlying problem for those who live in poverty as well as those who live in wealth.

I have been thinking alot and praying a lot about the issue raised as to whether or not poverty is a curse. I have come to believe that it is a curse, just as is death, sickness, etc. Because of sin we live in a cursed world! That does not mean that God will not prevent you from dieing (earthly death) for in that curse of death, you will see what real life is. It does not mean that every time you have a cold you have commited a sin. It means that sin entered a perfect world and a curse was placed upon it. To some God gives sickness that they might know health. And to some, God gives poverty that they might know true wealth. Put it this way, we all live under the curse of sin. We cannot escape it. That is why we must die. However, the end result of that curse need not be distruction anymore that death need be the end. In death, we find life. God overcame the curse but not necessarily for this cursed time we live in but for the glory we shall be raised too.

As to trusting God to meet our needs rather than the people whom God has intrusted money, let me say that it always comes down to trusting God to meet the need. We as Christians are to do God's will. If we fail to do as God instructs us, then we are failing God and just as in the story I related about our business oppertunity, God can overcome the disobedience of the rich. What a wonderful blessing to see that kind of power and love demonstrated by God in our lives (I know first hand how wonderful that is) and yet, sin does and should grieve us. That is why I bring up the issue of "the sin of the rich". I bring up the issue as much to remind me as I do for any other reason, do I understand what God would have of me to handle money if He sees fit to intrust me with "wealth" again, it comes back to a heart issue.

In Feb. 1980, I was hit by a train. I walked away from the accident with minor injuries, my car was totally to the point that one tire was all that could be salvaged. I stuggled with that accident for a long time and many well meaning believers kept telling me that God wanted to teach me something, to draw me closer to Him. Well I did learn somthing very important at that time in my life. I learned that the accident was not for me but for a fellow worker. You see, one day I was talking to a fellow worker about God and dealing with the problems she was going through in a Godly manner. In the course of conversation, my accident came up. The next day, she ran up to me and said, "I have to talk to you" Soon I was to learn that she had borrowed a car, driven to a RR crossing and sat on the tracks. She told me that she could see the train coming and thought about what I had said, so she drove off the tracks. You see, sometimes God asks us to do something or go through something so that others lives are touched. Sometimes, poverty is the same way. Sometimes, pverty is part of our lives so that someone else is challenged to change their hearts. (By the way, I am still searching for another reason for the accident and have found none. But I do feel blessed to have been asked by God to minister to someone else through is painful time in my life)

 

[Rainbow.]

In Feb. 1980, I was hit by a train. I walked away from the accident with minor injuries, my car was totally to the point that one tire was all that could be salvaged. I stuggled with that accident for a long time and many well meaning believers kept telling me that God wanted to teach me something, to draw me closer to Him. Well I did learn somthing very important at that time in my life. I learned that the accident was not for me but for a fellow worker. You see, one day I was talking to a fellow worker about God and dealing with the problems she was going through in a Godly manner. In the course of conversation, my accident came up. The next day, she ran up to me and said, "I have to talk to you" Soon I was to learn that she had borrowed a car, driven to a RR crossing and sat on the tracks. She told me that she could see the train coming and thought about what I had said, so she drove off the tracks. You see, sometimes God asks us to do something or go through something so that others lives are touched. Sometimes, poverty is the same way. Sometimes, pverty is part of our lives so that someone else is challenged to change their hearts. (By the way, I am still searching for another reason for the accident and have found none. But I do feel blessed to have been asked by God to minister to someone else through is painful time in my life)

My goodness...that's an awesome story, and praise the Lord that he used you to help this lady. As i always say..God is good!
You've really had a lot of problems which you seem to pull yourself through, it's nice to know someone with such amazing faith. God bless you and your family.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks for the boost to my ego but it is God who pulls me through. He is currently teaching me about faith. It is truely amazing how the more faith we have, the less we understand we have. Praise Be to God He is an Awesome God!!!

I just reread my last post, what a moment, sorry. What I was trying to say is that the more our faith grows, the more we understand that we really have very little faith.

 

[LeeS]

Very nice and helpful post in me trying to understand your view LeeS. Thanks

I appreciate your kind answer to me as well razzel.

As to the issues you are raising, let me say that it sounds like you are talking about a heart issue. A heart issue is a personal individual thing, not a blanket for all poverty.

I agree with that and at no point did I intend for my comments to sound like a blanket for all poverty. I believe there are all kinds of reasons for poverty and I also believe that none of them are stronger than the mercy of God to break apart and change.

I know from my own personal situation that we have done nothing to contribute to our poverty and more than should be necessary to overcome it. I have searched my heart many times over on the issue and can say that with clear conviction that oppression is why we are in the ranks of the impoverished and know many others the same way. I do know of those who struggle with finances whether "rich" or "poor" because of a lack of good sterardship but I know as many or more that exercise good stewardship and still have financial problems, some, like us, with big problems. A heart situation is the underlying problem for those who live in poverty as well as those who live in wealth.

Personally I come from a long line of family members who have always struggled with finances. I am determined to break out of that long line and not necessarily live in exess but no longer allow the enemy to steal from me. I believe scripture to say that he is come to kill, steal, and destroy. I don't believe that it is God's will for any to be in want. Otherwise that makes a whole lot of other scriptures lies. Especially the 23rd Psalm "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall NOT WANT".

To clarify a bit on my own issue, I have not squandered and blown the money I have made. My contribution to the position I am in was not nilly willy, however, instead of buying on credit I should have just stuck it out and waited for the Lord to supply. I go to work everyday and I'm quite responsible. And I'm struggling. As far as I know I am doing everything right yet the hole is only getting bigger.

I have been thinking alot and praying a lot about the issue raised as to whether or not poverty is a curse. I have come to believe that it is a curse, just as is death, sickness, etc. Because of sin we live in a cursed world! That does not mean that God will not prevent you from dieing (earthly death) for in that curse of death, you will see what real life is. It does not mean that every time you have a cold you have commited a sin. It means that sin entered a perfect world and a curse was placed upon it. To some God gives sickness that they might know health. And to some, God gives poverty that they might know true wealth. Put it this way, we all live under the curse of sin. We cannot escape it. That is why we must die. However, the end result of that curse need not be distruction anymore that death need be the end. In death, we find life. God overcame the curse but not necessarily for this cursed time we live in but for the glory we shall be raised too.

I'm trusting God to release me from this curse while here on earth. I don't believe it's bringing Him glory at all. I'm not desiring excess, but if He blesses me excessively then there are many I will be able to help. I don't believe that God makes people sick either. We may become sick and if we allow Him He will use it to bring glory to Him, but in my opinion, He did not make me sick.

As to trusting God to meet our needs rather than the people whom God has intrusted money, let me say that it always comes down to trusting God to meet the need. We as Christians are to do God's will. If we fail to do as God instructs us, then we are failing God and just as in the story I related about our business oppertunity, God can overcome the disobedience of the rich. What a wonderful blessing to see that kind of power and love demonstrated by God in our lives (I know first hand how wonderful that is) and yet, sin does and should grieve us. That is why I bring up the issue of "the sin of the rich". I bring up the issue as much to remind me as I do for any other reason, do I understand what God would have of me to handle money if He sees fit to intrust me with "wealth" again, it comes back to a heart issue.

I agree. It is wrong to have and not give. But all I can do to change it is to allow God to change me and as He provides the opportunity, instruct others on giving. I cannot play the part of the Holy Spirit and convict those who need conviction. I can pray and do my part only. I can also instruct those in need to trust God and quit mumbling and grumbling and quite pointing fingers at those they think should be and are'nt giving. I grew up in a household where both parents were always finding fault with other Christians, pointing fingers at what they were or were not doing and in the process were letting their own walks with God go down the sewer.

Pointing fingers is sin. It will get in the way of God's blessings for me. I use to work for a Christian orginazation and handled the ministry reimbursements. The President of the ministry had a cadalac and there was much critisism from those who did not have a cadalac. But what these people did not know was that the cadalac was a gift from a donor to the president and his wife. Also, the president of the ministry was always giving money away to the needy. I know for a fact that one time the gift was a million dollars. Yet there were still those on the sidelines still pointing fingers regarding details they did not have.

In Feb. 1980, I was hit by a train. I walked away from the accident with minor injuries, my car was totally to the point that one tire was all that could be salvaged. I stuggled with that accident for a long time and many well meaning believers kept telling me that God wanted to teach me something, to draw me closer to Him. Well I did learn somthing very important at that time in my life. I learned that the accident was not for me but for a fellow worker. You see, one day I was talking to a fellow worker about God and dealing with the problems she was going through in a Godly manner. In the course of conversation, my accident came up. The next day, she ran up to me and said, "I have to talk to you" Soon I was to learn that she had borrowed a car, driven to a RR crossing and sat on the tracks. She told me that she could see the train coming and thought about what I had said, so she drove off the tracks.

God is able to use anything the devil throws at us. I tend to believe more that the enemy tried to take you out but God intervened. Then later on down the road He used your story to help someone else.

You see, sometimes God asks us to do something or go through something so that others lives are touched. Sometimes, poverty is the same way. Sometimes, pverty is part of our lives so that someone else is challenged to change their hearts. (By the way, I am still searching for another reason for the accident and have found none. But I do feel blessed to have been asked by God to minister to someone else through is painful time in my life)

We are told in scripture to endure all things with patience. I don't plan to be in this position forever. I do plan to learn how to walk in patience and complete trust that even if the rich do not step into their right place that God will somehow supply.

In all honesty, I am far from being in poverty. I'm not in position to give money away at the moment but in the past I have. I gave to a complete stranger in the market one time. I've given money to bums on the street. I've given clothing, household items, food, etc. I've given people a place to stay. I've given them rides. I help wherever and whenever I am able. I'm not heartless and unloving. But I still believe that God does not want us to remain in a life of want. Not when He says otherwise.

 

[razzelflabben]

We can disagree on some issues, I happen to believe that God is in control of every asspect of my life, the good and the bad, if He allows Satan to oppress or try to take me out, it was still in God's control and thus, He will use it for good. That is His plan. If I am following Him, trusting Him, put my faith in Him, then nothing can harm me, and nothing can be harmful to me except by my lack of submitting to His divine call on my life.

I also believe that pointing fingers is a sin, but I also know that the scriptures are there for me to learn as much as for others. I do not see any scriptures that say the poverty is sinnful for the person living in poverty, only for those whom God has given much and do not meet the needs of the poor. This is a question each of us must ask ourselves. We do live in poverty and yet we have given to the poor. We have given food, shelter, rides, clothing, etc. just as you , does that make us more Godly?? NO!! God looks at the heart. That is where I still find issue with what I think you are saying.

Jesus had a pure heart. He has God's heart. Yet He chose to live in poverty and minister to the impoverished on a daily basis. If poverty is wrong, on any level. That of sin or curse, why would Jesus alow Himself to be defiled by choosing to live in poverty? I believe that we live in a cursed world and as such, our lives will be touched by that curse some time or other. Whether God chooses to protect us from that curse or use it to bring about good is in His hands and at His command. If I submit to that authority and accept His word on the matter then I am following scripture and trusting fully in God. If I continue to argue with that authority, and continue to find a way out, if I continue to justify my feelings, I am not following Christ but rather a distorted idea of who Christ is.

The Lord is my shepard I shall not want. If I have Jesus, what more could I want?

 

[LeeS]

We can disagree on some issues, I happen to believe that God is in control of every asspect of my life, the good and the bad, if He allows Satan to oppress or try to take me out, it was still in God's control and thus, He will use it for good. That is His plan. If I am following Him, trusting Him, put my faith in Him, then nothing can harm me, and nothing can be harmful to me except by my lack of submitting to His divine call on my life.

I believe this too. However, sometimes we make very poor choices. Sometimes we walk in outright disobedience. Sometimes we walk in unthankfulness and do not "rejoice in the Lord Always". Sometimes we just make the enemy nervious.

Scripture shows us how to keep the enemy from touching us. If we remain ignorant of those things then we give room to him to get in the way because we misunderstanding think it's God. Everyone likes to cite Job and compare themselves with him but they seem to miss a very strong statement that Job said at the end of the book. After God repremanded him for his self pride (read God's words), Job said, that he had uttered words that he had no understanding of. Job repented of his sin of "self-pride and God restored everything. In the beginning when God pointed out Job to the enemy, God was merely pointing out something that satan had previously giving up even trying to cross; that hedge or protection. Until then Satan had not noticed that the hedge was no longer there. Yes, Job was righteous in as much as he was physically able. But it's not physical antics God is wanting. He's wanting a heart of understanding. Job's own words in chapter 42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But NOW my eye sees You." While Job had been searving God out of what he'd heard, he now would searve Him because of what he knew.

I also believe that pointing fingers is a sin, but I also know that the scriptures are there for me to learn as much as for others. I do not see any scriptures that say the poverty is sinnful for the person living in poverty, only for those whom God has given much and do not meet the needs of the poor. This is a question each of us must ask ourselves. We do live in poverty and yet we have given to the poor. We have given food, shelter, rides, clothing, etc. just as you , does that make us more Godly?? NO!! God looks at the heart. That is where I still find issue with what I think you are saying.

I don't see any scriptures that say it's sinful either. I don't know what post I might have said that in but if you point me to it I will correct it.

I also don't believe that Jesus was in POVERTY. He laid down the riches of heaven and came to earth. He did not "not pay His bills". We see in one instance where He supernaturally obtained his taxes and also paid for Peter's. A couple of other times, He spoke food into existance and fed over 5000 people plus Himself and His disciples. When He was crucified the soldiers gambled for His robe. Scripture describes it as "seamless". I've heard that was quite an expensive robe. I don't know that He bought it Himself, it could have been a gift, but none the less He was wearing it.

Jesus had a pure heart. He has God's heart. Yet He chose to live in poverty and minister to the impoverished on a daily basis. If poverty is wrong, on any level. That of sin or curse, why would Jesus alow Himself to be defiled by choosing to live in poverty? I believe that we live in a cursed world and as such, our lives will be touched by that curse some time or other. Whether God chooses to protect us from that curse or use it to bring about good is in His hands and at His command.

God has chosen to protect us from it and it is written down for us in scripture. However, we tend to choose to remain ignorant of those things. It's God Who said, "My people parish for lack of knowledge". What we are tending to call humility is really a lack of knowledge and laziness to learn and do what He shows us to do.

If I submit to that authority and accept His word on the matter then I am following scripture and trusting fully in God. If I continue to argue with that authority, and continue to find a way out, if I continue to justify my feelings, I am not following Christ but rather a distorted idea of who Christ is.

We can trust God and still walk in lack of knowledge. If I don't learn to walk in a life of worship then I am walking in lack of knowledge. If I don't learn how to fight my enemy, then I am walking in lack of knowledge. As His children we are not supposed to just live passively.

The Lord is my shepard I shall not want. If I have Jesus, what more could I want?

I agree with that too. However the "want" being clarified here is the sustanance of living in a fallen world. You might also want to check out PS 91.

 

[Andrew]

The Lord is my shepard I shall not want. If I have Jesus, what more could I want?

What translation is that? I thot it says "the Lord is my sheperd, I shall not be in want." ie becos He is my shepherd, my needs and even wants are met, such that I am not in want.

What does a sheperd do? He brings his sheep to green pastures to feed and beside still waters to drink. He provides for their needs. Sheep don't lose their desire to eat or drink or play just becos they have a sheperd standing there.

 

[razzelflabben]

These posts are getting long and my computer is malfunctioning at the moment so I will just comment on the two things I find the most disturbing in your rebuttal, at least for the moment.

XXGod has chosen to protect us from it and it is written down for us in scripture. However, we tend to choose to remain ignorant of those things. It's God Who said, "My people parish for lack of knowledge". What we are tending to call humility is really a lack of knowledge and laziness to learn and do what He shows us to do.XX

Parish does not equal poverty. Or any other curse given to a sinnful world by God. God did not choose for sin to enter the world, He did choose to deliver us from the curse but not always the way we want or see as good. When I understand that it is by God's will, and His alone, then praying God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven becomes a prayer of trust not a pray of expecting God to free me from all things that are uncomfortable.
Secondly, where does scripture equate blessinges as monetary wealth, or even health. These are certainly blessings but, surely they are not blessings to be sought after more than the blessings of being in Christ, or knowing God better, or even gaining faith. If this were true, then why does scripture say, Psalm 19:7-11 there is no mention here of earthly pleasures, only Godly treasures, which would be my preferrance thank you

 

[LeeS]

These posts are getting long and my computer is malfunctioning at the moment so I will just comment on the two things I find the most disturbing in your rebuttal, at least for the moment.

God has chosen to protect us from it and it is written down for us in scripture. However, we tend to choose to remain ignorant of those things. It's God Who said, "My people parish for lack of knowledge". What we are tending to call humility is really a lack of knowledge and laziness to learn and do what He shows us to do.

Parish does not equal poverty. Or any other curse given to a sinnful world by God. God did not choose for sin to enter the world, He did choose to deliver us from the curse but not always the way we want or see as good. When I understand that it is by God's will, and His alone, then praying God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven becomes a prayer of trust not a pray of expecting God to free me from all things that are uncomfortable.
Secondly, where does scripture equate blessinges as monetary wealth, or even health. These are certainly blessings but, surely they are not blessings to be sought after more than the blessings of being in Christ, or knowing God better, or even gaining faith. If this were true, then why does scripture say, Psalm 19:7-11 there is no mention here of earthly pleasures, only Godly treasures, which would be my preferrance thank you

Well Razzelflabben, I guess this is where we really disagree. I believe that God is totally in control. I also believe that He has laid out the specifics of everything and He's written it down for us to read and believe and live. As long as we do that THEN and only THEN are we truly walking in complete obedience.

Just because one scripture may not mention something that does not mean the one's that do are nullified. God makes promises of provision. Whatever that may be.

Nowhere, did I say that we are to seek monatary gain. Nowhere. Scripture says, we are to seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and then all these things shall be added unto you. (Matt 6:33)

What do you think "these" things being referred to are? Looking at the previous verses Jesus is talking about food, drink, and clothing. (verse 25) He goes on to describe how well taken care of the birds are and in the Fathers eyes we much more cared for than them. (verse 25)

In verse 28 He describes how beautiful the lilies of the field are clothed and if the Father does that for flowers how much more does He care about clothing us. In verse 30, He says, "O ye of little faith?", because they think that He does not concern Himself with these things.

Jesus also said in another part of scripture, "if you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask what you will and it will be done unto you." If we are seeking His kingdom first and His righteousness then it is impossible NOT to have our necessities met. Jesus said it. That settles it.

As long as we are looking at "things" then we are not seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness. If we truely are seeking His Kingdom and righteousness then we will lack in nothing. Spiritually or physically. It's a done deal. Theres no way we cannot be supplied for. That's not a demand I'm making from God, it's a knowledge that He knows what I need and will take care of me. If my needs are not being met then I need to draw closer to Him and seek His Kingdom and righteousness first and then my needs can't help but be met. I can expect Him to take care of me. Not the demanding expectation but the expectation of Him keeping His promises.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have tried to post twice now and my computer has messed up both times, so we will try again.

Please listen to your own words. You are tearing apart the scriptures to say what you want to say. Scripture does not contridict itself. Therefore when there is an apparent contridiction, we must look at the totality of the scripture and find out what God is really trying to say to us, His people.
First you say that we are to have money (topic, I know you have added other things but money was the topic of the thread) that God will meet our needs. Bravo, this is scriptural. However, I dare you to say to the man or woman or child in a consentration camp, starving to death that because they believe in God, ask Him to deliver them, have faith to believe in that deliverance, etc. and they die from hunger anyway that their prayers and faith were in vain. God Does Not Lie! Therefore, we must understand what our needs really are. Just before the Lord's pray, we read that God knows before we ask. Throughout scripture God speaks of knowing us intamately, better than we know ourselves. He knows our every need. The person in the consentration camp was delivered, God did meet his needs, He in His wisdom, not mine, chose to take that person 'home" to heaven where there is no more sickness or pain. I beg you to not be saying that only some of the scriptures apply or that there is a hierachy of christians, those who have and those who have not. This type of thinking is hateful and destructive. Scripture tells us that if we do not have Love... well, you look it up.
Secondly, As you have already stated,
XXJesus also said in another part of scripture, "if you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask what you will and it will be done unto you." If we are seeking His kingdom first and His righteousness then it is impossible NOT to have our necessities met. Jesus said it. That settles it.XX
if we are seeking His kingdom and His righteousness, then why is our focus on anything else. I personnal have enough faith to believe that when God says that my needs are met, there are no provisions to that. The word of the Lord is true. He did not say that my needs would be met if I did anything. He simply says, they will be met. To believe that I must ask, beleive, or jump throught any other hoops is not consistant with the word of God. What I do not have because I do not ask for it is things like wisdom. God tells us to ask for wisdom and He will give it. Understanding, which is all over Ecc. along with knowledge. The Godly things that we are suppose to be setting our hearts and minds on, the things that concern God the most because they are eternal, not temperal. God tells us not to worry about tomorrow. If I have to question my faith, in order to be feed, then I am worried. Got a scripture that says I should worry about tomorrow? Please, do share.
Thirdly, my faith is based on the foundation that Jesus Christ is Lord, that His word is true and right, and just. That He does not lie. That anyone and everyone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God have equal access to and rights to the throne of God. That just because God's ways are not my ways, does not mean that I live in want, but rather that my want is different than my perceived needs. I believe that what God says, he means. That God has never given up His authority In fact, that is one of the points of Job, that Satan had no authority but what was given him by God. If you cannot believe that God does allow and cause what we percieve to be bad, to happen to His people, then why do you remove scripture form the bible? Plainly, 2 Chro. 7:11-16 says otherwise. Does God concern Himself with the physical needs? Absolutely! Should we worry and focus on those needs in our lives or simply trust God to meet those needs and focus our attention of the one who controls everything. As for me and my house, we choose the Lord!

 

[LeeS]

I have tried to post twice now and my computer has messed up both times, so we will try again.

Please listen to your own words. You are tearing apart the scriptures to say what you want to say. Scripture does not contridict itself. Therefore when there is an apparent contridiction, we must look at the totality of the scripture and find out what God is really trying to say to us, His people.

contradiction? What contradiction? I've given scripture that covers ALL the bases and you've given scripture that covers ONLY your view.

First you say that we are to have money (topic, I know you have added other things but money was the topic of the thread) that God will meet our needs. Bravo, this is scriptural. However, I dare you to say to the man or woman or child in a consentration camp, starving to death that because they believe in God, ask Him to deliver them, have faith to believe in that deliverance, etc. and they die from hunger anyway that their prayers and faith were in vain.

We are not talking about consentration camps. We are talking about God meeting our basic needs here. I do however believe that God will provide for all who put their trust in Him. He says so. That does not mean we will never experience trouble. That does not mean that we will never have hard times. That does not mean that we won't maybe die for our faith.

God Does Not Lie! Therefore, we must understand what our needs really are. Just before the Lord's pray, we read that God knows before we ask. Throughout scripture God speaks of knowing us intamately, better than we know ourselves. He knows our every need. The person in the consentration camp was delivered, God did meet his needs, He in His wisdom, not mine, chose to take that person 'home" to heaven where there is no more sickness or pain. I beg you to not be saying that only some of the scriptures apply or that there is a hierachy of christians, those who have and those who have not. This type of thinking is hateful and destructive. Scripture tells us that if we do not have Love... well, you look it up.

That appears to be what you've read into what I've said, but it's not all what I've said. I love people very much. I give whenever I can. I have let people take advantage of me in my giving. However, if there is a way out, and there is, then I'm going to instruct them on that as well. That is what was done with me and I am grateful for it. Not only to God, but to those who loved me enough to show me that I do not have to be need all the time. And like I've said SEVERAL times I'm talking basic sustanance. I find it appauling that you think God is abusive and negletive. Even though you don't use those words the picture you paint is such.

Secondly, As you have already stated,
XXJesus also said in another part of scripture, "if you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask what you will and it will be done unto you." If we are seeking His kingdom first and His righteousness then it is impossible NOT to have our necessities met. Jesus said it. That settles it.XX
if we are seeking His kingdom and His righteousness, then why is our focus on anything else. I personnal have enough faith to believe that when God says that my needs are met, there are no provisions to that. The word of the Lord is true. He did not say that my needs would be met if I did anything. He simply says, they will be met. To believe that I must ask, beleive, or jump throught any other hoops is not consistant with the word of God. What I do not have because I do not ask for it is things like wisdom. God tells us to ask for wisdom and He will give it. Understanding, which is all over Ecc. along with knowledge. The Godly things that we are suppose to be setting our hearts and minds on, the things that concern God the most because they are eternal, not temperal. God tells us not to worry about tomorrow. If I have to question my faith, in order to be feed, then I am worried. Got a scripture that says I should worry about tomorrow? Please, do share.

And that is my point razzel. As long as we are abiding in Him we won't be concerned with anything else. And whatever our needs are He will supply. We agree.

I also said nothing about questioning your faith. However, when we find ourselves coming up short, whether it be financially, physically, or spiritually, it is a wise person who goes to God and finds out why? None of us are exempt from growing more.

Thirdly, my faith is based on the foundation that Jesus Christ is Lord, that His word is true and right, and just. That He does not lie. That anyone and everyone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God have equal access to and rights to the throne of God. That just because God's ways are not my ways, does not mean that I live in want, but rather that my want is different than my perceived needs. I believe that what God says, he means.

I believe all of these things too razzel. Why do you seem to be concluding that I do not?

That God has never given up His authority In fact, that is one of the points of Job, that Satan had no authority but what was given him by God. If you cannot believe that God does allow and cause what we percieve to be bad, to happen to His people, then why do you remove scripture form the bible? Plainly, 2 Chro. 7:11-16 says otherwise.

It seems that you have read the letter but not at all heard my heart. If you could point out the place where I said God gave up His authority, I will quickly go and fix it. I most certaintly do not believe that.

Would you say razzel that there is no responsibilty on your part at all for anything that happens in your life? If you are poor in spirit, is that God's will for you?

Does God concern Himself with the physical needs? Absolutely! Should we worry and focus on those needs in our lives or simply trust God to meet those needs and focus our attention of the one who controls everything. As for me and my house, we choose the Lord!

Again we agree. But why do you assume that me and my house have NOT chosen God?

Razzel, I believe we both love God and are serving Him to the best that we understand. I don't think any less or more of people due to statis or whatever. I do my best to keep my eyes on God. I have found that as I put my eyes on Him and abide in Him and let His word abide in me, all the things that I lack in are available. I have never said that God wants me rich, but I have said He does not want me to run out on my bills. Paying one's bills is more than just a "perceived" need. God calls a person who does not pay their bills wicked. I don't want to be wicked, therefore I seek the means of paying them in a righteous way. I do not consider that sin. I consider it owing up and being responsible to care for what God has given me.

I meant to tell you that in one of your posts here where you were telling how the Lord had supplied that I was really incouraged by it. I pretty much live that way too. God has always supplied my every need. And even some wants.

I've enjoyed talking with you but I believe I've exausted everything. God is Good, the devil is bad. The devil is out to kill, steal, and destroy. I know that God is not allowing my enemy to beat me up, therefore, I'll be darned if I'm gonna let him.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have enjoyed this debate and have fine tuned my thinking which is a good thing. I also admire the softer tone you LeeS are taking, it shows a heart willing to listen to the word of God not just the things others would like to teach. (Whether or not we ever see eye to eye on the issue)
I would like to clarify one thing. I do believe that we should do everything we can (without sinning) to remove poverty, sickness, etc. from our lives. But, some of the people who spent time in consentration camps, some of the people who are starving to death in Zimbabwa, some of the people who are hungry in Haiti, etc. are worshiping and serving the same God we do. If what you are saying does not apply to them, then it does not apply to me. For God is the same God, and it is the same Word for each of us.
One of my favorite books is the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis I believe the line I refer to is in The Boy and His Horse. Shasta has to leave Aravis behind because she had been clawed by a Lion. This worries Shasta so he asks Aslan (represents Christ) why Aravis was clawed and left behind. Aslan replies that that is her story and this is his. I think we often forget that we each have a different story to live, but if we totally trust God, the story will always end with God being glorified.