Is it a sin to remain poor?

[Rainbow.]

God promises provision. If we are walking in less than provision. . .it is due to something we are doing wrong. . .not just because God feels like blessing one child but the other He feels like making them suffer. That's called favoratism and neglect.

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So a starving child born into hunger is doing something wrong??
I dont see the fact that i was born into a rich country and a starving child born into a poor country is favouratism or that God is being neglectful. But for reasons known only to God that's the way things are, and im sure one day i will know why these things are so.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I think your getting the wrong end of the stick here, maybe because i used the work luck.
Well i will change that word to blessed.
I myself am not poor, i was just stating that there are many poor people out there which have not been blessed in the way you were.

Ok, I understand. And what we are saying is that these poor people have in fact been blessed. They have all the same promises and blessings that God has given us all. They are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. They have been given all things that pertain to life and Godliness in Christ.

2 Peter 1:3 KJV
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

I cannot think of anything that that phrase does not cover. Health certainly pertains to life. Having needs met certainly pertains to life and godliness. Paying you bills pertains to both life and godliness. Keeping your family well and healthy is both life and godly.

When i read some of the stuff that some people are saying on this subject, it's clear to me that they will never know what it's like to be truly poor or hungry, and i dont know of any poor people who feel holy by their poorness!

That is true about some. If you read my testimony above, you will know that is not me. This is one reason I am so strong pushing the idea that God is good and supplies every need. I have known hunger and poverty. I have been there. I have begged for bread! God resued me out of that... and He will recue everyone who will believe His word and side with it.

When you say
"But to overcome poverty takes more than prayer. It takes belief. Lots of people pray, but are they believing? God is there waiting for faith to reach out and touch his provisions. Simply believe that you have received the things that you have asked for. "
Dont you think the starving children and their mothers have tried all this, yet are still going to bed with hunger pains in their bellies.

Yes! And there will be millions of people in hell because they mouthed empty prayers that were devoid of faith. They did not have the word, and did not base their prayer on what the Word of God said. It is really not a matter of trying something. It is resolving that the Word of God is true for me regardless of the situation or circumstance. God's word is true , and that settles the matter in my heart.

Sometimes people are on this earth to suffer, and no amount of prayer and faith will help them. The only comfort from that i get is that they will be the first through the narrow gates of heaven!

I am afraid we are far appart in this. Jesus and the gospel are here to save every soul, heal every wound, supply every need. He is the Lord who is more than enough in every area of life. We have to present His word in this way... that it is true for all. Suffering people do not need to be told that it is their destiny to be and pain, in poverty, and lost. They need to be told the good news that Jesus has redeemed us. He is the author and fininsher of our faith. He has done everything that needs to be done to save, heal, deliver and supply the needs of everyone. There is not one who is left out or forgotten.

And as for not giving God the credit and saying it was luck, well that's fair enough maybe i used the wrong words there, what i should have said was.... There but for the grace of God there go i....

True! Me also. I have seen homeless and sick people on TV and spoke to my kids and told them... "that was me.... I know what that is like and how you get that way. I have slept in parks and been homeless. I have been so poor spiritually and physically that I became a proverb to the people who saw me. Jesus and only Jesus lifted me out of that.
Praise His Name!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am not in poverty either. There was a time though......I must say that in my sufferings was the glory of God revealed in a magnificent way.....Have you ever been hungry, and the hand of God fed you? I'm not talking about not having money to go to Burger King...I have been so poor and lived so far in a hollar with no way out..So, in some of the sufferings I went through it was by His Hand that we were often fed and always healed. Once my son was raised from the dead............So, IMO if you are in the position your first stop can't be the E.R. it's good to be on the side of Jesus

AMEN!
Praise God!

 

[Rainbow.]

Ok, I understand. And what we are saying is that these poor people have in fact been blessed. They have all the same promises and blessings that God has given us all. They are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. They have been given all things that pertain to life and Godliness in Christ.

2 Peter 1:3 KJV
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

I cannot think of anything that that phrase does not cover. Health certainly pertains to life. Having needs met certainly pertains to life and godliness. Paying you bills pertains to both life and godliness. Keeping your family well and healthy is both life and godly.


That is true about some. If you read my testimony above, you will know that is not me. This is one reason I am so strong pushing the idea that God is good and supplies every need. I have known hunger and poverty. I have been there. I have begged for bread! God resued me out of that... and He will recue everyone who will believe His word and side with it.



Yes! And there will be millions of people in hell because they mouthed empty prayers that were devoid of faith. They did not have the word, and did not base their prayer on what the Word of God said. It is really not a matter of trying something. It is resolving that the Word of God is true for me regardless of the situation or circumstance. God's word is true , and that settles the matter in my heart.



I am afraid we are far appart in this. Jesus and the gospel are here to save every soul, heal every wound, supply every need. He is the Lord who is more than enough in every area of life. We have to present His word in this way... that it is true for all. Suffering people do not need to be told that it is their destiny to be and pain, in poverty, and lost. They need to be told the good news that Jesus has redeemed us. He is the author and fininsher of our faith. He has done everything that needs to be done to save, heal, deliver and supply the needs of everyone. There is not one who is left out or forgotten.


True! Me also. I have seen homeless and sick people on TV and spoke to my kids and told them... "that was me.... I know what that is like and how you get that way. I have slept in parks and been homeless. I have been so poor spiritually and physically that I became a proverb to the people who saw me. Jesus and only Jesus lifted me out of that.
Praise His Name!

"I am the LORD, and there is no other.

I form the light, and create darkness,

I bring prosperity, and create disaster,

I, the LORD, do all these things."

 

[razzelflabben]

Then you are not in poverty are you? If you trust God and have every need supplied, then you are prosperous.

We are saying the same thing!

Needs met = prosperous
Needs not met = poverty


What is this lesson that He is using poverty to teach you? I understand the NT and the gospel to say that Jesus has done everything needed to bring us all the way to God. We are not brought one inch closer to God by our own efforts, whether the efforts be works or suffering. In the end, there is only one thing that is going to bring to the Father, and that is Jesus. All esle is dead works.

Well, then in this thread we must define what we mean by poverty. My family and I live in poverty and have for many years. We pray on a daily basis for God to deliver us. My husband and I both work 365 days a year, an average of 12-14 hour days, we cut back to 6-8 hours on holidays. We have more faith than you can imagine that God will deliver us, and dispite what you might think, poverty is not the end to all. It has taught us many things and brought us to a vision of how we can meet the needs of the poor so that they can hear the word of God. But to call living in poverty a sin when I have no control over my wealth, only God has that control is counterproductive to scripture and God's commands to not judge and to Love. Poverty and wealth, financial, are both from God. If it were not so, there would not be so much talk in scripture about poverty, how to meet the needs of those in poverty, nor the story of the poor woman who gave the mite or the woman and her son who gave their "bread" to the prophet Elishah (I think I have the right prophet) were they not blessed? Were they not people of God? Did they not have faith? Why else would they have given all even at their own death of starvation?




I love James. Lets read the verses that you are speaking about_:

James 1:2-4 KJV
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

I notice that in verse 2 it specifically speaks of temptations. These verses speak about sins and using our faith to overcome them. It really is not talking about God using sickness or proverty to try us does it? Of course resisting temptation has the end result of being perfect.! Praise God!



I am wondering if you are suggesting that verse 2 is talking about trials as in afflictions and poverty. If so, let's be sure to continue this train of thought throughout. Especially verse 13.


James 1:13 BBE
Let no man say when he is tested, I am tested by God; for it is not possible for God to be tested by evil, and he himself puts no man to such a test:

We have to be consistant. If these verse are talking temptation to sin, then they have nothing to do with sickness and poverty. If they are talking about evils that come upon us, then verse 13 says that they do not come from God. If they do not come from God then we should rebuke them and overcome them.

My version, the NIV says trials. My husband, a seminary graduate says that the word in the original is trials. If you do not see poverty as a trial, you have never lived in poverty. It is a trial, of faith, hope, love, endurance.

I do believe that it is possible for a man to be rich and Godly all at the same time, however, I cannot imagine why God would in one breath say that we should all be rich and then turn around and say that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter heaven. Mt 19:24, Mark 10:25 Luke 18"25 So then, what is the definition of wealth and poverty. There is the wealth and poverty of spirit but ask any impoverished person the definition of wealth, you will hear that to pay bills, heat the house, provide food and clothing, that is true wealth. How many of us could live on less, moving the scale of what poverty really means?

 

[LeeS]

So a starving child born into hunger is doing something wrong??
I dont see the fact that i was born into a rich country and a starving child born into a poor country is favouratism or that God is being neglectful. But for reasons known only to God that's the way things are, and im sure one day i will know why these things are so.

As far as I understood we were not talking about people in foreign countries that serve other God's. That alone explains their poverty. . .look at what their god's have done for them.

And for those living in those countries who are coming into the Faith of Jesus Christ, many are giving up their lives as martyrs. And for those who are not called to that "gift", God is indeed meeting whatever need they have and doing miraculous things.

 

[LeeS]

"I am the LORD, and there is no other.

I form the light, and create darkness,

I bring prosperity, and create disaster,

I, the LORD, do all these things."

Where does it say He creates disaster against His own children? That would be a direct contradiction to Ps 91

 

[LeeS]

My version, the NIV says trials. My husband, a seminary graduate says that the word in the original is trials. If you do not see poverty as a trial, you have never lived in poverty. It is a trial, of faith, hope, love, endurance.

I do believe that it is possible for a man to be rich and Godly all at the same time, however, I cannot imagine why God would in one breath say that we should all be rich and then turn around and say that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter heaven. Mt 19:24, Mark 10:25 Luke 18"25 So then, what is the definition of wealth and poverty. There is the wealth and poverty of spirit but ask any impoverished person the definition of wealth, you will hear that to pay bills, heat the house, provide food and clothing, that is true wealth. How many of us could live on less, moving the scale of what poverty really means?

Is not a trial supposed to end at some point though? I mean, if I'm supposed to learn something through it and it never ends, that sorta implys that I'm not learning anything.

 

[Droobie]

I do believe that it is possible for a man to be rich and Godly all at the same time, however, I cannot imagine why God would in one breath say that we should all be rich and then turn around and say that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter heaven.

I believe the key to that verse is generosity. Why it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God is that their hearts are set not on kingdom purpose, but attached to their wealth. We should all be rich - but with a spirit of generosity in our hearts. Not to say that if we are generous, we will automatically be rich.

Put it this way. Is your goal in life say in 10 years to have $1 million dollars in your bank account, or to have the same bank account as you do now, but have given $1 million dollars. Which attitude would attract God's blessing?

There are many people in the world who give at any one time more than I shall ever earn in my life. However it could probably be just a very small percentage of what they earn. Pocket change to them as it were. But I know of those who are not as well off as me, have millions of dollars pass through their hands. Not sticking to them, but being used for His purpose in the world.

 

[Photini]

It does tell us to give to the poor. . .how can we obey that if we are the poor?

giving to the poor doesn't necessarily have to equal financial alms. We give whatever we can. Even if it is just our time, our clothes, our food, whatever we can we give. Being poor is not restricted to money and material things.
Some of the poorest people are very comfortable financially.

There were many Christians in Russia that had no food, no money, no shelter but were very precious in the sight of God. They were even loved so much to be given the crown of martyrdom. They had very little and ate rotten moldy bread, but they were the richest of all, because they found the Kingdom of God.

 

[Droobie]

Is it a sin to remain poor?

Now are we talking the physical state of being poor, or the mental attitude of being poor?

 

[razzelflabben]

Photini, nice post.

It has always bothed me that when we talk about giving, the focus is on the amount, not on the heart. Christ clearly talks about the heart, that is what we have control of, our very own hearts. In looking for another scripture that I think sums things up very well, 2 Cor. 8:1-15, wow what a powerful scripture. Not only does it deal with the heart aditude but poverty and riches as well. Where is the "equality" in giving when one does not have enough to eat and another has 2 or more houses, expensive cars, etc..

vs 14 especially empasizes our need to share with those who are poor.. The church of Macedonia lived in extreme poverty and yet, their joy and generosity welled up. How many of us can say the same thing. I often worry that when God delivers us from poverty, will I be able to give the way Christ would have me give, freely and generously They were not repremanded for living in poverty but commended for having joyful, generous hearts.

vs. 15,it would stand to reason that God gives us wealth that we might share that wealth. Yet, the most generous people in the world tend to be the poor. If you are not the impoverished, are your giving enough? Powerful verses, thought provoking, heart probing thoughts!!!!!!!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Let's not change the subject. The subject is poverty and being poor.... not being rich.
We are talking about feeding your children and paying your bills. If you want to change the and duck the issue, then perhaps another thread would be in order. In this thread we are specifically talking about needs being met and not having to endure poverty.

My version, the NIV says trials. My husband, a seminary graduate says that the word in the original is trials. If you do not see poverty as a trial, you have never lived in poverty. It is a trial, of faith, hope, love, endurance.

Ok! Then you must also believe that verse 13 is talking about the same thing. The same greek word is used and it is clear that not only do these "trials" not come from God, but we are not even supposed to imply they come from God!

James 1:13 BBE
13 Let no man say when he is tested, I am tested by God; for it is not possible for God to be tested by evil, and he himself puts no man to such a test:

If these trials do not come from God then we are under no obligation to endure them. Jesus became a curse for us on the cross so that we would be redeemed from the curse of the law.

 

[Andrew]

Thirdly, poverty can be a blessing and teach us many things about God, faith, trust, etc.

How can poverty be a blessing if God lists it as a curse in Deu 28, and if Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law?

Perhaps what you mean is that God can use or turn an ugly situation to work for our good. IOW the ugly situation itself is not a blessing from God.

Ok! Then you must also believe that verse 13 is talking about the same thing. The same greek word is used and it is clear that not only do these "trials" not come from God, but we are not even supposed to imply they come from God!

Amen! And trials are supposed to be temporal, not lasting your whole life:

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Psalms 34:6
6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.

Psalms 34:19
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them ALL.

2 Timothy 4:18
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

How can poverty be a blessing if God lists it as a curse in Deu 28, and if Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law?

Perhaps what you mean is that God can use or turn an ugly situation to work for our good. IOW the ugly situation itself is not a blessing from God.

Andrew, I have read your words of wisdom for some time. Now I have toask you something. Do you think poor people are in misery? When I was very poor I was happy. I loved seeing the blessings of God. It was a different time then.....I ask you this as I sit here and wonder if I returned to poverty if I could still be happy-I hope so!

 

[Photini]

Let's not change the subject. The subject is poverty and being poor.... not being rich.
We are talking about feeding your children and paying your bills. If you want to change the and duck the issue, then perhaps another thread would be in order. In this thread we are specifically talking about needs being met and not having to endure poverty.



.

I am sorry if I inadvertantly veered off topic. I was just interested because I fall into the poverty category. It is strange though, that every month when weighing my bills against my income I always come out negative, but always make it through. I give the glory to God for His blessing and watching over my children. I only ask patience to bear my daily cross without murmuring.

However, when I look at places like this (Kosovo Crucified) I realise that if I indeed have any hardship, it is EXTREMELY minimal.
It's been nice talking with you all. Take care.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Praise God for you all!
Let me please set one thing out as plain and simple as I can.

I am in no way questioning anyones faith or devotion to God or love for God. Nor am I downplaying your willingness to suffer for God when that is needed. And I especially am not turning a blind eye at your longsuffering and patience in the face of trials.
What I am saying is this. In the end, if you grow or become stronger or closer to God, it will not be because of the sickness or the trial or the poverty. In the end it will be because these issues forced you to call on God and believe for His goodness. In the end, it is still going to be faith that brings you to the place you are trying to get.
I came to this conclusion a number of years ago when I came to the realization that I did not have to go through all these things. I could have just believed Him to start with. I could have just trusted Him and His word from day one. This is where I have ended up anyways. You can go the hard road of religiosity if you want to. One by one these dead works of suffering and self denial will be stripped away, and in the end there will be nothing but the sacrifice of Jesus holding you up. All these efforts you are putting forth, while admirable in a religious sense, are actually our own efforts. They spring forth from our lack of trust in His love gifts. We think that surely we must have to do something more than believe. Surely He could not love us that much... to just forgive us and take all our cares. All these thoughts are left overs from a prior life... one that thinks we have to work our way to God or be beaten into what He wants us to be.
Oh that the child of God would hear His call and believe His word. Oh that they would see His love and compassion. Oh that they would simply give up their own efforts and throw themselves on the mercy of the Father!
I pray the Father to give us all the spiritual sight to see His love and goodness that was manifest by the sacrifice of His dear Son!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am sorry if I inadvertantly veered off topic..

Hi Photini,
I really was not referring to you in this post. I enjoy your posts and hope you can share more with us!
Blessings
Didy

 

[Andrew]

Do you think poor people are in misery? When I was very poor I was happy. I loved seeing the blessings of God.

I believe most people are not happy when they can't even pay their bills and feed themselves, let alone their children. Or when they don't even have a roof over their heads or a decent place to lay their heads. They may not necessarily be miserable but they certainly are not happy.

I do believe however, that you can still have the joy of the Lord in you despite the outward circumstances, for there are rich people who are miserable.

But the question here is really whether God's will for you is to remain poor. God says to owe no man money, to tithe, to give to the poor, to finance the spread of the gospel etc. -- I don't see how we can do all that and be in His will when we can't even take care of ourselves.

If God paid a heavy price -- the life and blood of his own Son -- to redeem you from the curse of poverty, how can you best honour His work? To receive it humbly or to say no thank you, I'd rather remain poor?

 

[Rainbow.]

As far as I understood we were not talking about people in foreign countries that serve other God's. That alone explains their poverty. . .look at what their god's have done for them.

And for those living in those countries who are coming into the Faith of Jesus Christ, many are giving up their lives as martyrs. And for those who are not called to that "gift", God is indeed meeting whatever need they have and doing miraculous things.

Oh that's just plain sad what you said there, dont you know there are millions of christians in poor countries all over the world?!
What kind of Christian are you with that attitude!