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Is honesty a strict requirement, always, no exceptions?

Gregory Thompson

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In this thread, I knew the common thread and provided what Scripture also says. This is especially important when sermons tend to not include such verses. English is flimsy in a sense where it is difficult to communicate multiple conflicting things at once. So one parallel at a time, line upon line, precept upon precept.

The "being shrewd" principle is illustrated in the New Testament writings through the first money manager Judas being crooked, and the later instructions regarding the management of that resource being shrewd.

If the church treasurer didn't have some basic understanding of how one could be scammed into using up all of the benevolent fund, that would be a problem.

The shrewd concept is really important nowadays where some churches (still) teach blowing all your savings on offerings results in a return investment.

But in general, being honest is important as Jesus said to be like little children, and blessed is the pure of heart for they shall see God.
 
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bèlla

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Honesty and gullibility aren’t cause and effect. The bible advocates wisdom for a reason and the parable of the unjust steward demonstrates the usefulness of shrewdness. Most people are gullible because they’re too trusting, haven’t learned how to discern truth from falsity, weren‘t taught how to think strategically or prone to follow. They’re often emotionally driven or respond to positive assertions that calm their fears or sate the ego. And they’re prone to self-deception.

While I’m honest I’m hard to deceive and read people well. I don’t show my hand very often and I’ve learned to allow people to hang themselves by remaining quiet and forcing them to talk which inevitably leads to more disclosures than not. I allow people to show me who they and treat them accordingly. I don’t do pedestals or icons and see what’s in front of me. I don’t pretend it’s otherwise. Although I speak affirmatively as a norm I see the shadow too and move cautiously when required.

I wasn’t born that way. I spent a lot of time with a relative who emphasized wisdom and honed my acuity through games and the word. We were 30 years apart and she made me play checkers, chess and scrabble and I had to beat her. She never let me win. By the time I was in middle school I could. I played monopoly at home and old maid with my babysitters. I didn’t realize what they were doing at the time but now I see its brilliance and I’m amazed.

They prepared me for today. I didn’t need those qualities back then. The world was different. But I need it now and I’m prepared. The proverb tells us to get wisdom and with all our getting acquire understanding. We don’t have to be victims or drift on this plane. A better path exists if we’re willing to do the work.

~bella
 
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Godcrazy

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No it is not okay to lie for a parent.
If I was in a situation at the ticket booth, if I was the one taking payment I would pay them myself and let them go on my expense. If I was in the que I would pay for them.
yes I have done if it was.
Rather than have a situation like that.
Or alternatively you could have helped them to something else or a treat that they could afford.
Maybe come in cuddle the animals or something.
That way you don`t punish or argue or criticise but you still teach.
Or you can say unfortunately you cannot afford this and help them choose something they can afford and make it a pleasant experience.
Lie to protect lives? yes in that case it is self defense. It is saving lives.
Bills? say from the beginning if you cannot afford or when.
Make an agreement or ask for extension.
I think most things can be approached in a similar way.
 
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FireDragon76

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Honesty is a good rule or policy, but there are always exceptional circumstances where certain people have no right to the truth (Dietrich Bonhoeffer makes this point in his works, for instance)
 
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Godcrazy

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Honesty is a good rule or policy, but there are always exceptional circumstances where certain people have no right to the truth (Dietrich Bonhoeffer makes this point in his works, for instance)
what circumstances are you referring to
 
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Yarddog

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Honesty should always be the path but that doesn't mean the your response is what others may expect.

The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus and he was always truthful but he confounded them with his answer.
 
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FireDragon76

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You should always save a life of course that is self defense

Even that gets more complicated, potentially. It really depends on a bunch of factors. Saving an innocent person's life might be better than saving a guilty person's life, all things considered. And it also depends on consent- suppose somebody doesn't want to be saved, but somebody else does, in the same situation. Suppose some people don't deserve saving, if it means others would die, etc.

That's why Dietrich Bonhoeffer ultimately decided to participate in an assassination plot against Hitler, even if he was merely facilitating German's surrender, he still knew about the assassination attempt and cooperated in aspects of the plot, even if he wasn't the trigger man. He knew he was dealing in a moral grey area, but he felt he had to act, that he couldn't just walk away from the intelligence reports he was shown, wash his hands of it, and be guiltless. That's why he accepted his execution with a sense of responsibility, in the end. He didn't pretend to be guiltless through his actions, even if he hoped his act was ultimately part of the redemption of his nation. In that case, he wasn't acting strictly out of moral duty in the Kantian sense, but out of a deeper existential motive, obedience to Christ through the needs of the neighbor he encounters in the real world, not just abstract notions of justice. This is moral duty that isn't done without grace, a sense of duty based on responsible action.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Generally, within the concordance of promoting genuine care and mutuality among people, honesty is expected if we're Christian.

However, this doesn't always mean that we "owe" another person an answer to each and every single question they ask. We're not necessarily obligated to answer, especially if the questions posed by others are used for social engineering and/or disingenuous purposes.

But lying? If we are to answer, we need to think deeply as to why we'd lie. The only good reason to pose a lie would be to protect the truly innocent in moments of extreme danger at the hands of unscrupulous individuals or groups.
 
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zippy2006

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My thoughts are no/no/maybe.

Regarding the booth operator, it would be presumptive to take the word of a child over the word of an adult. If he is instructed in such matters he would surely be instructed to take the word of the adult, and to not create a scene or an interrogation.

I've noticed the same sorts of double standards when it comes to truth-telling. These sorts of philosophical or moral issues are very interesting insofar as they implicate everyone. Everyone has encountered the dilemmas or at least the tensions.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Quick note, I've been away and hadn't realized how much this thread has taken off. Thank you all for your responses. Now to go through and digest them.
 
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stevevw

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I think as far as the situation at the fair you were just being you and innocent. I think in that situation its nobel. You were not intending to breach your mums or anyones moral code but rather expressing your own and ironically in a relative moral society that should be not only ok but a right without come back. Each person is suppose to have their own truth and the right to express that.

The so called moral truth that was being imposed was someone elses. But notice how its being imposed. If a Christian reversed this then like you said people get triggered and 'how dare anyone tell me what is moral, keep your God to yourself'.

Thats not just a family thing but its everywhere and for Christians its hard because you can get in situations where it seems like your the problem if you say something. Not just with obvious situations like theft. Becuase it really is theft but rationalised because it doesn't exactly look like stealing.

The common rationalisation is that the big corps of business or the government is taking from everyone or its just so small that they won't miss it. As though its a right that its no longer seen as being wrong or sin.

In saying that I found in my journey in being transformed in Christ that there was a growing awareness of sin and being more like Christ. Like peeling away the rationalisations that cause someone to not see things as sin.

Peter mentions about servants being subject to even unjust masters. That a Christian who is quietly obedient even if it seems unjust to them in the situation. Then this quiet Christlike obedience no matter what is enough to reflect Christ that it will expose the unjust actions and also cause the unjust person to see God or have their conscience pricked. Without saying a word.

Now that may cause some to deny or react and others to repent.

As for the situation with the Jews and Nazis which is a common moral dilemma. Morals don't work in isolation and often there is more than one moral at work and they may come into contact with each other. So its really a system of morals working at the same time.

Moral truths are also not absolute like with Kants imperative which says the person must always stick to the moral laws no matter what, either don't lie at all or lie. An either/or fallacy.

When I think of whether to lie to the Nazis about the Jews in my attic I'm thinking, wait a minute I was already lying when I chose to hide them in my attic. So why would I then renege on that lie by telling the Nazis. I would be undermining my own actions of hiding the Jews in the first place.

Thats because in hiding the Jews I determined a greater moral truth that life was the ultimate worth and this trumped the that I had to lie to protect that life. I say that situation because in another this may not be the case that one should lie.

But for this to happen you need a clear and sound moral basis that is moral truth in the first place and not a relative system that is open to personal rationalisations and justifications of human ideas of what morality is.
 
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Fervent

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Honesty is more of a matter of character than strictly about telling the truth. If the intention is to deceive, even while technically telling the truth, then the actions are dishonest despite there being no lie. The real issue isn't about whether or in what circumstances lies are acceptable or even honorable, but whether or not we are living as people of integrity. Some modicum of honesty is expected of Christians, but setting absolutes in matters of ethics is begging for exceptions to be pointed out. Integrity must not allow us to compromise, because as soon as we begin compromising we start on the path towards completely losing that integrity.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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Good point about the absolutes. I heard a man once draw a parallel, talking about "You're the kind of person who could see a toddler standing out in the middle of the street alone, and not go get him because it's illegal to jaywalk." We can get caught up in following the letter of the law, and neglect the heart of it.
 
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stevevw

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I think it comes back to the idea that morality is about the best way to behave morally in any given situation. That means lying may be the wrong in one situation but the right thing in another.

I don't think moral truths (objective morality) are absolute because we can reason out each situation and come to a moral truth just for that situation only. The same for each and every situation determined separately according to its context. But against a set of moral truths that are grounded beyond human ideas and rationalisations or justifications.

We know lying is wrong according to Gods laws. But Christ updated the law in that it was the state of our heart and intentions that were what led to sin and what was sin. I don't think a heart and intention that is wanting to preserve Gods ultimate law of upholding and protecting human life from unjustified killing is sinful.

The protection of life is also seen as the top moral good in secular society. If your lies managed to save everyone from a crazy gunman you would be a hero. This is because God put in everyones heart His laws and 'do unto others' is the 2nd greatest commandment and all commandements are ultimately about upholding and protecting life.
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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The trouble comes in, I think, when people confuse "moral in this situation" with "most convenient for me," or "will get me out of trouble." That's what parents are doing when they have their children lie on the phone and say they're not home. They're not working for some higher law or greater good. They're trying to weasel out of something.

Also, there is a difference between hiding Jews from Nazis, and helping your cousin who robbed a liquor store hide from the police. But people will rationalize and not make that distinction. Ya gotta protect family!

Brings to mind a news story I heard years ago, where a police officer had a man pulled over, his three-year-old son riding with him. Officer asked if there were any drugs in the car. When the man said no, the little boy thought he was being helpful when he spoke up, "Yes there are, Daddy. In the glove compartment." I felt sorry for that poor child, knowing he was going to be blamed because Daddy is in jail now. "All because you had to open your big mouth!" After all, it's never the fault of the person who commits the crime. It's the fault of the person who told. Right?
 
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