Is Homosexuality Wrong from a non Biblical perspective?

[Khalliqa]

According to who?

You?

Aside from your personal desire to justify discrimination

This is projecting a bit much upon my motivations, it would be nice if we could just stick to what I actually say my motivations are.....

why should we accept your claim that this is so?

I'm not on this board to get anyone to accept anything.... I am simply expressing an opinion as most do here...

but my observation and sense of order in the Universe says one thing... yes...

the authority I adhere to is Allah....

but since this is not an adequate answer for most... I see that

Science... is oft studying what is before it and making interpretive observations as well...

one is free to choose what one will focus on....

Considering the planet has about twice the human population it can handle…why is this a bad thing?

I brought no judgment.... this was a side issue you presented and has nothing to do with my position.... but out of respect for your need to have this addressed, I pointed out a slight inconsistency.... but European zero population growth is not a concern of mine at all....

I’ve lost track of the number of times I have run into that little lie.

I'm sorry you feel that way....

Neither can the infertile heterosexual. Question: should the infertile heterosexual be subjected to the same discrimination and justifications of prejudice that you apply to gays and lesbians?

You seem intent on labeling...

but you are comparing apples to oranges.... an infertile "heterosexual" is not promoting his/her condition as a way of life...... he/she often recognizes that this is an unfortunate consequence of life, if he/she wishes to procreate... also an infertile "heterosexual" that wants children will utilize science to improve upon organs that are purposeful for such procreation.... no one tries to utilize the anus for childbirth.... or oral sex to produce children...

however, homosexual sex does not produce life.... that is simply a fact.... not an attempt on my part to make it so....

] but your self defined “benefit” of procreation is the only thing you use in your justification of prejudice against gays and lesbians.

Your judgment of me as prejudice is a prejudice against my stating a fact....

homosexuals can't procreate....

and the organs of male and female by virtue of their makeup are primarily for the use of procreation....

and within this we are able to experience pleasure.....

You attack

No I stated an fact based opinion...

however, you seem comfortable attacking me for such... its cool though..

and denounce an entire minority

denounce? no I have no such power....

my opinion of their behavior is another thing... we were asked to look at a behavior and give our opinion of it morally, this is all I'm doing as you are... I was asked to do so by the OP.... perhaps you are simply offended that my reasoning is not yours...

based on your[ presumption that because as a rule gays and lesbians do not reproduce (though a significant number do have children whether through such mechanisms as artificial insemination and/or adoption) and nothing else.

To produce they will have deny that they were created to be with the same sex....


They will have to cease falling upon one another and enter the opposite sex where the organs are created for procreation...

But it is the only justification for prejudice you bring up

mmmmk

And we are back to my point that the infertile heterosexual cannot reproduce…therefore is it moral subjected infertile heterosexuals to the same discrimination and justifications of prejudice that you use against gays and lesbians?

see above where I have answered you regarding this..

Peace and Blessings,

Khalliqa

 

[TheMissus]

but you are comparing apples to oranges.... an infertile "heterosexual" is not promoting his/her condition as a way of life...... he/she often recognizes that this is an unfortunate consequence of life, if he/she wishes to procreate... also an infertile "heterosexual" that wants children will utilize science to improve upon organs that are purposeful for such procreation.... no one tries to utilize the anus for childbirth.... or oral sex to produce children...

You're wrong here. "Childfree couples" are a way of life. There's even a subforum in the Marriage Ministry here on CF for childfree couples. Through convenient infertility or a conscious decision not to have kids, childfree marriages define a certain "lifestyle"outside the norm. You assume an infertile couple would want to have children. Not necessarily. I'd love to be infertile so I never had to bother with birth control again.

 

[TricksterWolf]

The primary reason for our genitalia is procreation...

secondarily pleasure...

I use them to pee.

Homosexual behavior cannot produce life.....

Neither can making friends, working a job, or eating ice cream. It doesn't mean those things are immoral.

Trickster

 

[HunterRose]

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This is projecting a bit much upon my motivations, it would be nice if we could just stick to what I actually say my motivations are.....

You didn’t answer either of the question.

Who besides you has declared that the “primary reason for our genitalia is procreation...”



And

Aside from your obvious motivation to justify prejudice why should we accept your claim that this is so?

I'm not on this board to get anyone to accept anything.... I am simply expressing an opinion as most do here...

But you did not present an opinion. you made a declaration of fact.

but my observation and sense of order in the Universe says one thing... yes...

And others observe and sense some different order in the Universe…why should your personal perspective be considered superior/true?

the authority I adhere to is Allah....

but since this is not an adequate answer for most... I see that

Science... is oft studying what is before it and making interpretive observations as well...

one is free to choose what one will focus on....

Avoiding the question is not the same as answering the question.

I brought no judgment.... this was a side issue you presented and has nothing to do with my position.... but out of respect for your need to have this addressed, I pointed out a slight inconsistency.... but European zero population growth is not a concern of mine at all....

Yeah you did. It was part of your gays and lesbians don’t reproduce therefore prejudice and discrimination are acceptable and moral things argument.

I'm sorry you feel that way....

A lie is a lie…and despite the observation of Lenin, a lie told often enough does not become truth.

You seem intent on labeling...

but you are comparing apples to oranges.... an infertile "heterosexual" is not promoting his/her condition as a way of life...... he/she often recognizes that this is an unfortunate consequence of life, if he/she wishes to procreate... also an infertile "heterosexual" that wants children will utilize science to improve upon organs that are purposeful for such procreation.... no one tries to utilize the anus for childbirth.... or oral sex to produce children...

however, homosexual sex does not produce life.... that is simply a fact.... not an attempt on my part to make it so....

You have set up a double standard here .

On the one hand you wish to use lack of children to justify discrimination and personal prejudice against gays and lesbians.

But on the other hand you do not want that same discrimination and personal prejudice to be applied to another group who is also childless.


You are attempting to apply a "double standard", which makes an exception to the rule for yourself—or people like you—but applies it to others you have wish to condemn. I note that you do not argue that you, or your group, should be exempt from your fabricated childless rule simply because of who you are; this would be such obvious special pleading that no one would be fooled (not that anyone is fooled). Instead, you invoke some irreverent characteristic that gays and lesbians have, but what you have tried to justify your prejudice with has nothing to do with your initial justification of prejudice at all.

Your judgment of me as prejudice is a prejudice against my stating a fact....

homosexuals can't procreate....

and the organs of male and female by virtue of their makeup are primarily for the use of procreation....

and within this we are able to experience pleasure.....

So your opinions are now facts?

No I stated an fact based opinion...

So now opinions are facts?…or are you saying that only your opinions are facts?

denounce? no I have no such power....

Yet you happily go around making moral proclamations and declarations of “fact” and justifying personal prejudice.

my opinion of their behavior is another thing... we were asked to look at a behavior and give our opinion of it morally, this is all I'm doing as you are... I was asked to do so by the OP.... perhaps you are simply offended that my reasoning is not yours...

Sexual orientation isn’t a behavior any more than it is a choice.

To produce they will have deny that they were created to be with the same sex....

Another unsupported opinion

They will have to cease falling upon one another and enter the opposite sex where the organs are created for procreation...

Would you make such a hate filled statement about people with a different skin color than yours? What about people who practice another religion?

Why not?

Why is such a statement acceptable to be used against gays and lesbians…but not against other minorities?

see above where I have answered you regarding this..

Peace and Blessings,

Khalliqa

No…you engaged in special pleading to avoid answering the question.

You wish to use childlessness to justify your own personal prejudice against gays and lesbians. However, you wish to evade having the same justification used against heterosexuals.

The question remains
infertile heterosexual cannot reproduce…Why is it not just as moral to subjected infertile heterosexuals to the same discrimination and justifications of prejudice that you use against gays and lesbians?

 

[Khalliqa]

You didn’t answer either of the question.

Who besides you has declared that the “primary reason for our genitalia is procreation...”



And

Aside from your obvious motivation to justify prejudice why should we accept your claim that this is so?






But you did not present an opinion. you made a declaration of fact.


And others observe and sense some different order in the Universe…why should your personal perspective be considered superior/true?


Avoiding the question is not the same as answering the question.




Yeah you did. It was part of your gays and lesbians don’t reproduce therefore prejudice and discrimination are acceptable and moral things argument.



A lie is a lie…and despite the observation of Lenin, a lie told often enough does not become truth.



You have set up a double standard here .

On the one hand you wish to use lack of children to justify discrimination and personal prejudice against gays and lesbians.

But on the other hand you do not want that same discrimination and personal prejudice to be applied to another group who is also childless.


You are attempting to apply a "double standard", which makes an exception to the rule for yourself—or people like you—but applies it to others you have wish to condemn. I note that you do not argue that you, or your group, should be exempt from your fabricated childless rule simply because of who you are; this would be such obvious special pleading that no one would be fooled (not that anyone is fooled). Instead, you invoke some irreverent characteristic that gays and lesbians have, but what you have tried to justify your prejudice with has nothing to do with your initial justification of prejudice at all.



So your opinions are now facts?




So now opinions are facts?…or are you saying that only your opinions are facts?


Yet you happily go around making moral proclamations and declarations of “fact” and justifying personal prejudice.


Sexual orientation isn’t a behavior any more than it is a choice.



Another unsupported opinion


Would you make such a hate filled statement about people with a different skin color than yours? What about people who practice another religion?

Why not?

Why is such a statement acceptable to be used against gays and lesbians…but not against other minorities?








No…you engaged in special pleading to avoid answering the question.

You wish to use childlessness to justify your own personal prejudice against gays and lesbians. However, you wish to evade having the same justification used against heterosexuals.

The question remains
infertile heterosexual cannot reproduce…Why is it not just as moral to subjected infertile heterosexuals to the same discrimination and justifications of prejudice that you use against gays and lesbians?

I have little time to respond....

May I ask?

Do you believe every homosexual is born homosexual?

Has there ever been a time in history where the concept of a homosexual "family" has been presented as an alternative to a nuclear family? (not has homosexual sex been accepted, but has the concept of a homosexual family been accepted)....

What are the normatives for the increase in homosexual behavior by those who choose the lifestyle for its popularity?

Also, do you feel that a child is best served by having a mother and father? Do you feel that the effects of divorce on a child is the same as living under the roof of the same sex as a "family"?

Also do you believe that our sexual organs have (have had) an evolutionary purpose?

What do you think happens primarily when we have intercourse?

How do you rank sperm and what happens after it is released? How do you rank the purpose of the womb ?

in relation to pleasure?

What is your definition of moral, immoral and what is good? Do you believe that these concepts exist?


These are questions that I would have asked anyway.... but I must leave and will try to return this weekend.... I ask because underlying much of our discussion is misunderstanding of where we stand on how terms are defined and the foundation of thought from which we present our opinions.... I would like to understand better where you are coming from and I would like to be given the opportunity to state clearer (so that I'm satisfied the point that I'm trying to make is actually understood whether or not you agree with it)

I am simply trying to get to the heart of the matter, so that we can interpret each others arguments at their base and not where we think or project the other is coming from.....

but not once have either of us clarified what we mean by immoral or wrong or good.... this is important for understanding...

with further dialogue perhaps you won't be so defensive and accusatory...

have a good evening..


Peace,
Khalliqa

 

[JesusWalks78]

Is Homosexuality Wrong from a non Biblical perspective?

Apparently not, but we were warned to stay vigilant against this type of coruuption of society.

 

[TheMissus]

Do you believe every homosexual is born homosexual?

Why must the argument be framed in such absolute terms?

 

[kopilo]

Not necessarily. I'd love to be infertile so I never had to bother with birth control again.

There's an implant or an operation for that... Consult a gynochologist about it.

 

[tocis]

I would like to ask if anyone has a NON-biblical reason for thinking Homosexuality is wrong.

If there is one, it has so far escaped my notice.

 

[GreyFalcon]

as to weather homosexuality is right or wrong.....well thats a sticky issue. right and wrong, if defined outside a biblical and religious setting, is a vague arguable concept. in otherwords, right and wrong do not exist outside religion. therefore homosexuality if argued from a non-religious perspective cannot be considered wrong. since this is not a formal argument but rather a oppinion topic, please listen to the words of reason.

every species has one overarching goal, to survive. from the lowest virus to the highest mamal, each fights everyday to live in the world. humans are best at it. humans build homes to fight against the cold, make light to fight against the night, and get money for food to fight against hunger. each of these examples point towards survival. The survival of one human is limited, they will survive for a time then pass away. the survival of the race of humans, however, is limitless. why is this?

the human race will survive indefinatly because it reproduces (I know here with the repro. argument again) if one person becomes a homosexual, thats not wrong (from a non-biblical view). it doesn't have a great impact upon the rest of the human race. but think if everyone is homosexual......the human race dies out, that is VERY wrong (from any view you want to take).

all species are born with certain instincts: self preservation, self improvement, race preservation, etc. Homosexuality goes against the instinct to preserve race.

so homosexuality is wrong in that it runs counter to instinct. It attempts to overthrow a species by lack of reproduction.

these are just my thoughts on the thread. and since these are only my thoughts I feel no compunction to defend them, if you wish to argue with me as to why I'm wrong....don't bother, I realy don't care.

Live life with no regrets, and you'll never regret living

 

[KarateCowboy]

Well, homosexuality is wrong from a Torah, Hindu, and Islamic perspective, so I guess the answer is:

Yes.

 

[Cerberus~]

so homosexuality is wrong in that it runs counter to instinct. It attempts to overthrow a species by lack of reproduction.

Ridiculous. A minority of people not having children is no more an attempt to "overthrow the species" than an infertile woman not having any children.

And you can't say it's against instinct. First off, you don't even know what their instinct is. Second, we are not animals. We are not bound by instinct. We have free will.

Not being able to reproduce desn't make homosexuality wrong.

I feel no compunction to defend them, if you wish to argue with me as to why I'm wrong....don't bother, I realy don't care.

Probably cause you can't defend them.

What are the normatives for the increase in homosexual behavior by those who choose the lifestyle for its popularity?

Homosexuality isn't a choice anymore than me liking redheads is a "choice".

And popularity? Please explain to me why anyone would choose a "lifestyle" that a large majority of people are too ignorant to understand, and hate. Gays can't get married, in many places they can't adopt, and many times, they can't even come out their family or freinds. How is that "popular"?

 

[Cerberus~]

Well, homosexuality is wrong from a Torah, Hindu, and Islamic perspective, so I guess the answer is:

Yes.

Ok, now how about a non-religious reason, for those of us who are Jews, Muslims or Hindu.

 

[KarateCowboy]

And popularity? Please explain to me why anyone would choose a "lifestyle" that a large majority of people are too ignorant to understand, and hate.

Um, you mean like Christianity in ancient Rome, modern Iran, or Somalia? Hmmm, I guess Christians are "born again that way".

Gays can't get married,

Sure they can. They have the same rights I do.

 

[rosenherman]

I think folks should have to take a test before they have kids!

You're so right. (Notice there is no smiley, no bouncing laughing icon. I'm serious, too many people who have no business breeding have kids.)

 

[Cerberus~]

Um, you mean like Christianity in ancient Rome, modern Iran, or Somalia? Hmmm, I guess Christians are "born again that way".

God help you if you can't see the obvious difference between an ideology and a sexual oreintation.

Can you have sex with a man and enjoy it? If sexuality is like a switch, certainly you could just flip that switch and have sex with men at your liking, could you not?

I think I must be broke, I don't seem to have that switch.

Sure they can. They have the same rights I do.

This foolish reasoning quietly leave out the part that they are GAY. That says it all. Need I explain what "gay" means, as I would a 4 year old? I can draw you a picture, if you want, since it's such a hard concept to grasp.

 

[TricksterWolf]

Well, homosexuality is wrong from a Torah, Hindu, and Islamic perspective, so I guess the answer is:

Yes.

If believe the intent of the OP was for logical arguments that aren't based on appeal to authority (books, laws, or leaders). "It's bad because someone else's Bible says so," or "It's bad because my Bible says so when you call it 'the Torah' instead of Bible" doesn't exactly cut it.

Trickster

 

[HunterRose]

I have little time to respond....

May I ask?

Do you believe every homosexual is born homosexual?

Suppose I answered in the negative…would this make prejudice and discrimination justifiable or morally acceptable?

Has there ever been a time in history where the concept of a homosexual "family" has been presented as an alternative to a nuclear family? (not has homosexual sex been accepted, but has the concept of a homosexual family been accepted)....

Remember that the nuclear family is a relatively new concept.

And yes it doesn’t take much effort to find societies where same sex partners formed the foundation of the family unit. Some of the more accessible references would be among Native American tribes.

However, Even if it there ewer no such examples that would be no reason to support its continued exclusion. The argument from history is a logical fallacy taken to the extreme this line of argument would have prevented woman’s suffrage (we never allowed women to vote in the past) prevented emancipation (slavery has always existed) child labor (always been like that) and many other similar atrocities.

What are the normatives for the increase in homosexual behavior by those who choose the lifestyle for its popularity?

Once again “choice” a false concept. No one chooses their sexual orientation…the only choice involved is the choice to lie of to be honest.

Also, do you feel that a child is best served by having a mother and father? Do you feel that the effects of divorce on a child is the same as living under the roof of the same sex as a "family"?

Is a child “best” served by having a mother and father who sexually abuse her?

Or is a child “best” served by having parent(s) who love and nurture that child no matter what sexual oriention that parent is

Also do you believe that our sexual organs have (have had) an evolutionary purpose?

Disposal of bodily wastes comes to mind
After all...that is what we primarily use them for

What do you think happens primarily when we have intercourse?

If you don’t know….this is probably not the best place to ask the question

How do you rank sperm and what happens after it is released? How do you rank the purpose of the womb ?

Rank it?

These are questions that I would have asked anyway.... but I must leave and will try to return this weekend.... I ask because underlying much of our discussion is misunderstanding of where we stand on how terms are defined and the foundation of thought from which we present our opinions.... I would like to understand better where you are coming from and I would like to be given the opportunity to state clearer (so that I'm satisfied the point that I'm trying to make is actually understood whether or not you agree with it)

I am simply trying to get to the heart of the matter, so that we can interpret each others arguments at their base and not where we think or project the other is coming from.....

but not once have either of us clarified what we mean by immoral or wrong or good.... this is important for understanding...

with further dialogue perhaps you won't be so defensive and accusatory...

have a good evening..


Peace,
Khalliqa

The question remains: infertile heterosexual cannot reproduce…Why is it not just as moral to subjected infertile heterosexuals to the same discrimination and justifications of prejudice that you use against gays and lesbians?

 

[HunterRose]

as to weather homosexuality is right or wrong.....well thats a sticky issue. right and wrong, if defined outside a biblical and religious setting, is a vague arguable concept. in otherwords, right and wrong do not exist outside religion. therefore homosexuality if argued from a non-religious perspective cannot be considered wrong. since this is not a formal argument but rather a oppinion topic, please listen to the words of reason.

every species has one overarching goal, to survive. from the lowest virus to the highest mamal, each fights everyday to live in the world. humans are best at it. humans build homes to fight against the cold, make light to fight against the night, and get money for food to fight against hunger. each of these examples point towards survival. The survival of one human is limited, they will survive for a time then pass away. the survival of the race of humans, however, is limitless. why is this?

the human race will survive indefinatly because it reproduces (I know here with the repro. argument again) if one person becomes a homosexual, thats not wrong (from a non-biblical view). it doesn't have a great impact upon the rest of the human race. but think if everyone is homosexual......the human race dies out, that is VERY wrong (from any view you want to take).

all species are born with certain instincts: self preservation, self improvement, race preservation, etc. Homosexuality goes against the instinct to preserve race.

so homosexuality is wrong in that it runs counter to instinct. It attempts to overthrow a species by lack of reproduction.

these are just my thoughts on the thread. and since these are only my thoughts I feel no compunction to defend them, if you wish to argue with me as to why I'm wrong....don't bother, I realy don't care.

Live life with no regrets, and you'll never regret living

If everyone were to become a doctor then there would be no one to produce and distribute food, no one to clean the streets, no one to build shelter, no one to fight fires, no police officers to keep us safe. Therefore being a doctor is wrong because if everyone did it society would end for lack of support

 

[HunterRose]

Well, homosexuality is wrong from a Torah, Hindu, and Islamic perspective, so I guess the answer is:

Yes.

The Torah and Koran also say that eating pork is wrong…does that make it so?