Is Hell Really Eternal?

[he-man]

- we are discussing the stated opinion of Heman/Timothew and Bullinger .

insert sound of crickets

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Therefore, Bubba does not believe in God.

Actually I already acknowledge and agreed with you that if we really had no soul making each of us unique persons, God could create as many copies of each us as He wanted, He could also "perish" each copy as many times as He likes (why stop at twice?).

Some scientist also claim we have no soul and so there is nothing unique about each of us except our life experience, which is merely a unique (but duplicatable) bio-electrical program in our head. The same would claim that because they believe that to be true, when they figure out how to duplicate the "program" - we are then essentially immortal - and could also be duplicated perfectly BTW. The body part would be harder to duplicate than the "program" they acknowledge, but confident we can do that too one day.

Your correct in saying I do not believe in God that would make duplicates of us and call a Judgement of my duplicate Justice. However am pretty sure both Hindus and scientist might appreciate this view of an "afterlife".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

insert sound of crickets

Ahh, so we see Heman agrees his view of a non-existent afterlife has been accurately represented and he agrees with Timothew and Bullinger on that point. Thanks for the reps Heman!

 

[he-man]

Ahh, so we see Heman agrees his view of a non-existent afterlife has been accurately represented and he agrees with Timothew and Bullinger on that point. Thanks for the reps Heman!

deleted

 

[he-man]

Ahh, so we see Heman agrees his view of a non-existent afterlife has been accurately represented and he agrees with Timothew and Bullinger on that point. Thanks for the reps Heman!

insert sound of crickets

8 In fire of flame giving vengeance to them that " knοw not 'God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus ...:
9 Who shall pay the penalty even with everlasting destruction from the presence of the 'Lord, and from the ° glοry of His °power;
10 When He shall have come to be °glorified in His °saints, and to be admired in all them that °believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

8 flaming fire = fire of flame (Gr. phlox. Here; Luke 16.24. Acts 7. 30. Heb. 1.7. Rev. 1. 14; 2. 18; 19. 12).
taking ... on = giving ... to.
vengeance. Gr. ekdikesis. See Luke 18. 8.
know.Αρ,132.I.i.gospel.Αρ140.
Christ. The texts omit.
9 be punished with = pay (Gr. tino. Only here) the penalty (Αρ, 177. 4), (even).everlasting. Αρ. 151. II. B. ii.
destruction. Gr. οlethrοs. See 1 Cor. 5.5.glory. See p. 1511. power. Αρ. 172. 3.
The Companion Bible (Condensed) : II Thessalonians: Page: 1796 (3)

 

[Norah63]

And this thread goes on and on..
So spreading the gospel is to let everyone know they are going to heaven.
Or is there another option?

 

[he-man]

And this thread goes on and on..
So spreading the gospel is to let everyone know they are going to heaven.
Or is there another option?

The problem is in the defense of the gospel and the fact that one ignores the scripture and makes snide comments to try to overcome any specific scripture.

The problem is multiplied by ignoring John Miles as the author who revised The Companion Bible (Condensed) : II Thessalonians: Page: 1796 (3) which, is the same as that introduced by Danker in the revised the BADG.

So...starting with the third edition (1937), it had only Bauer's name on the title page. After Bauer's death in 1960, a sixth edition, "völlig neu bearbeitet", appeared in 1988. This is more teamwork, for the responsible editors, Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, were assisted by scholars of the Institut für neutestamentliche Textforschung at Münster, especially by Viktor Reichmann.

A second edition of this lexicon, based on the fifth German edition, appeared in 1979. . The edition was prepared by Gingrich and Danker; Arndt had died in 1957.

Frederick W. Danker became solely responsible for the new, third edition of the Greek-English lexicon (henceforth: BDAG, for Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich) after Gingrich's death in 1993 and from the Committee for Scholarly Research of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

The other peculiarity of BDAG is a novelty introduced by Danker.
It is to be hoped that other authors of Greek lexica will follow Danker's example. Some of his definitions possibly need improvement but many would serve also in a lexicon of non-biblical Greek.

Accuracy and precision are virtues to be expected in lexica. BDAG is satisfactory in those respects but not faultless. If my probes are to be trusted, there is on the average one misprint per page, mostly incorrect or misplaced accents, and some inconsistencies (e.g., ἔγκλημα, τος p. 273 but ἔδεσμα, ατος p. 275; θρησκεία p. 459 but ἐθελοθρησκία p. 276, without mention of orthographic variants). A check of about 100 pages of BDAG against the corresponding portions of LSJ's Revised Supplement suggests that the following lemmata in BDAG should be supplemented or corrected:
ἀνδρίζομαι: the Rev.Suppl. offers relevant extra-biblical parallels.

ἄχρι as temporal preposition: ἄξρι ἡμερῶν πέντε Acts 20:6 means "by the end of five days" rather than "within five days" (cf. the varia lectio πεμπταῖοι, which means "on the fifth day", not "in five days"; it denotes a point in time, not duration).

οἰκεῖος: At Galatians 6:10 "familiar with faith" is probably a better understanding of οἰκείους τῆς πίστεως than BDAG's circumstantial "who belong to the household of faith".

οὗτος: At Matthew 8:9 and some other passages the meaning "such-and-such" seems certain; cf. ὅδε James 4:13.

περίχωρος: IG 5(2).3.10 (Tegea, iv BC) offers the earliest instance of τὸ περίχωρον.

πολύς: Extra-biblical parallels indicate that a possible meaning of τῶν πλειόνων 2 Corinthians 2:6 is "the full initiates".

πρόσκαιρος: When applied to persons, as Matthew 13:21 and Mark 4:17, the meaning could be "concerned only with the moment, lacking staying power".

Danker seems to embrace the same views as he [Bauer] on the development of the Greek language. However, labeling NT Greek as "colloquial" seems problematic nowadays. The diglossic or polyglossic situation that prevailed in the Greek-speaking world involved more linguistic varieties than "colloquial" and "literary", and no variety of written Greek would be identical with spoken Greek.

Even the concept of "NT Greek" becomes problematic, since the differences between the individual writings of the NT are so conspicuous, and, in spite of all parallels that have been detected, there are certain linguistic features that are attested only in Jewish and Christian texts. Before the next edition of BDAG some rethinking along these lines is advisable;

the views that the lexicographer holds on the position of early Christian Greek in the Greek language community will influence, e.g., his selection of parallels to be quoted and his readiness to accept that ordinary Greek words may have developed specialized meanings in the linguistic milieu to which NT belonged.
Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2001.06.01
(Reviewed by Jerker Blomqvist, Department of Classics, Lund University )

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And this thread goes on and on..
So spreading the gospel is to let everyone know they are going to heaven.
Or is there another option?

In UT land there are many main options and variations within each. Annihilationism (several variations) and variations of universalism both require Heaven and Hell.

In an orthodox view of the afterlife not everyone is going to Heaven, some will go and stay eternally in Hell.

As for "spreading the gospel" I do not think scaring people with talk of Hell has ever led to a genuine "conversion" of the heart. On the other hand, a Christian who believes our fate is still in a balance during this lifetime has need to fear Hell, Catholics would belong to that group. So for such Christians I think a healthy respect of that fear could serve to help some avoid sin that might cause that fear to be realized. Some will obviously not appreciate that distinction, but it is there.

 

[he-man]

In UT land there are many main options and variations within each. Annihilationism (several variations) and variations of universalism both require Heaven and Hell.

No devil, no hell fire just annihilation for the wicked.
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. [NKJV]

Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up? [YLT][DARBY] [BULLINGER][GNT-V]

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares in the wheat, and went his way
28 And he said unto them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ The servants said unto him, ‘Wilt thou then that we go and collect them together ?’
Bullinger notes: 28 He = And he. An enemy = A man an enemy. Fig. Pleonasm(Ap. 6), for emphasis. hath done = did.

Mat 13:28 ο δε εφη αυτοις εχθρος ανθρωπος τουτο εποιησεν οι δε δουλοι Aλεγουσιν TSBειπον αυτω θελεις ουν απελθοντες Bσυλλεξομεν TSAσυλλεξωμεν αυτα [GNT-V]

 

[timbo3]

What happens to the devil in Revelation?

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The persistent problem remains for many, who take the Bible book of Revelation as literal, rather than reading carefully Revelation 1:1 that says: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John."

Thus, much of Revelation is symbolic, putting forth meanings through "signs". For example, is the "wild beast" of Revelation 13:1 a real wild beast, an animal with flesh and blood ? Or is the ' lamb that has two horns that begins speaking like a dragon ' a real lamb ?(Rev 13:11)

Or what is the "image of the wild beast" that is seen at Revelation 13:14, 15 ? Is it a real animal that has fur or scales ? Or what of the "false prophet" at Revelation 16:13, is it a literal fleshly person that speaks "prophesies" ?

Because the Bible book of Revelation was encrypted by God, only those with "insight" ("wise", KJV) can unlock its deep meaning.(Dan 12:3) Hence, the expression "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" is symbolic, for how can the Devil be literally "tormented" by "the lake of burning sulfur" since fire has no effect on him because he is a spirit and can pass through the sun or any stars without harm ? (see Dan 3:25)

As seen at Matthew 25:41, Satan and his demonic agents are thrown into "the everlasting fire", everlasting destruction, not everlasting physical torment. Jesus used fire as a metaphor to show that something is destroyed, someone that is once dead will never come back, not tormented. By using the the Greek expression Gehenna, he showed that any person unqualified for life everlasting receives the opposite of life, everlasting death, not everlasting torment.

At Deuteronomy 30, only two options are presented by God: "I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants."(Deut 30:19)

What is the opposite of everlasting life ? Everlasting death, not everlasting torment, for if a person is tormented in a fiery "hell", then that person has never died, but is still alive, contrary to what the Bible teaches. In fact, if there is everlasting torment, then the word death should not be either in the Bible or our vocabulary if we don't really die.

But our Maker, Jehovah God, used it as he meant, that a person ceases to exist upon death, telling Adam and Eve that "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die (not be tormented).”(Gen 2:17) And as God told Adam after his rebellion: "For dust you are and to dust you will return.”(Gen 3:19) Adam did not exist before he was created and became non-existant after he died.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The persistent problem remains for many, who take the Bible book of Revelation as literal, rather than reading carefully Revelation 1:1 that says: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John."

Thus, much of Revelation is symbolic, putting forth meanings through "signs". For example, is the "wild beast" of Revelation 13:1 a real wild beast, an animal with flesh and blood ? Or is the ' lamb that has two horns that begins speaking like a dragon ' a real lamb ?(Rev 13:11)

Or what is the "image of the wild beast" that is seen at Revelation 13:14, 15 ? Is it a real animal that has fur or scales ? Or what of the "false prophet" at Revelation 16:13, is it a literal fleshly person that speaks "prophesies" ?

Because the Bible book of Revelation was encrypted by God, only those with "insight" ("wise", KJV) can unlock its deep meaning.(Dan 12:3) Hence, the expression "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" is symbolic, for how can the Devil be literally "tormented" by "the lake of burning sulfur" since fire has no effect on him because he is a spirit and can pass through the sun or any stars without harm ? (see Dan 3:25)

As seen at Matthew 25:41, Satan and his demonic agents are thrown into "the everlasting fire", everlasting destruction, not everlasting physical torment. Jesus used fire as a metaphor to show that something is destroyed, someone that is once dead will never come back, not tormented. By using the the Greek expression Gehenna, he showed that any person unqualified for life everlasting receives the opposite of life, everlasting death, not everlasting torment.

At Deuteronomy 30, only two options are presented by God: "I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants."(Deut 30:19)

What is the opposite of everlasting life ? Everlasting death, not everlasting torment, for if a person is tormented in a fiery "hell", then that person has never died, but is still alive, contrary to what the Bible teaches. In fact, if there is everlasting torment, then the word death should not be either in the Bible or our vocabulary if we don't really die.

But our Maker, Jehovah God, used it as he meant, that a person ceases to exist upon death, telling Adam and Eve that "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die (not be tormented).”(Gen 2:17) And as God told Adam after his rebellion: "For dust you are and to dust you will return.”(Gen 3:19) Adam did not exist before he was created and became non-existant after he died.

Speaking of imagery, Scott Hahn details a very ancient view of Revelation (The Lamb's Supper- Scott Hahn) that makes it a cryptic reference to the liturgy of the Mass, not that any UT or non-Catholics or especially evangelicals would appreciate that. Just sayin.

 

[Der Alte]

The persistent problem remains for many, who take the Bible book of Revelation as literal, rather than reading carefully Revelation 1:1 that says: "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John."

Thus, much of Revelation is symbolic, putting forth meanings through "signs". For example, is the "wild beast" of Revelation 13:1 a real wild beast, an animal with flesh and blood ? Or is the ' lamb that has two horns that begins speaking like a dragon ' a real lamb ?(Rev 13:11) . . .

We can dispense with much of this standard copy/paste from the WTBS library CD. The fact that there is some symbolism in the Bible is not free license to dismiss everything as symbolic. There is an ages old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense." You have tried to tell us what Revelation does not mean, does WTBS have any idea what all this symbolism supposedly means?

The word translated "signs" in Rev 1:1 in the NWT is σημαίνω/semaino it occurs six times in the NT. In the other five occurrences it always refers to something factual not symbolic.

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying [σημαίνω] what death he should die.

Joh 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying [σημαίνω] what death he should die.

Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying [σημαίνω] by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified [σημαίνω] by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Act 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify [σημαίνω] the crimes laid against him.​

 

[he-man]

We can dispense with much of this standard copy/paste from the WTBS library CD. The fact that there is some symbolism in the Bible is not free license to dismiss everything as symbolic. There is an ages old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense." You have tried to tell us what Revelation does not mean, does WTBS have any idea what all this

Then please explain how you can sleep in the sleep of death and not wake and it not be perpetual?
Psa 13:3 Consider and heare me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleepe of death.
And some have ears to hear but hear not! Jer 51:39 In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may reioyce, and sleepe a perpetuall sleepe, and not wake, saith the Lord.

Apparently you are not aware that it was spoken only to believers and not to the wicked and how could dead people be judged if they were not awakened They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years but some already haue their reward and into smoke shall they consume away?

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambes: they shall consume: into smoke shall they consume away.

Rev 20:12 And I sawe the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: & another booke was opened, which is the booke of life: and the dead were iudged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Psalm 62:11 God has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That power belongs to God.
(12) Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to His work

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they loue to pray standing in the Synagogues, and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seene of men. Uerily I say vnto you, they haue their reward.

Rev 21:8 But the fearefull, and vnbeleeuing, and the abominable, and murderers, and harlot mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all lyars, shall haue their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20 Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded [/u]for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God,[/u] and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:15 And whosoeuer was not found written in the booke of life, was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 which is the second death.

Got MILK? Are you thirsty and do you HUNGER?
Eze 39:20 Thus yee shall be filled at my table with horses and charets, with mightie men, and with all men of warre, saith the Lord God.

Rev 19:18 That yee may eate the flesh of Kings, and the flesh of Captaines, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an Angel standing in the Sunne, and hee cried with a lowd voyce, saying to all the foules that flie in the midst of heauen, Come and gather your selues together vnto the supper of the great God:

No devil, no hell fire just annihilation for the wicked.
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the [Unatural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he k]Holy Spirit teaches[/U], comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the now them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. [NKJV]

Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up? [YLT][DARBY] [BULLINGER][GNT-V]
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares in the wheat, and went his way
28 And he said unto them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ The servants said unto him, ‘Wilt thou then that we go and collect them together ?’
Bullinger notes: 28 He = And he. An enemy = A man an enemy. Fig. Pleonasm(Ap. 6), for emphasis. hath done = did.

Mat 13:28 ο δε εφη αυτοις εχθρος ανθρωπος τουτο εποιησεν οι δε δουλοι Aλεγουσιν TSBειπον αυτω θελεις ουν απελθοντες Bσυλλεξομεν TSAσυλλεξωμεν αυτα [GNT-V]

 

[Mediate]

There cannot be a hell of eternal, undending, conscious, minute by minute torment for some, and yet it be a place where others do not go, firstly because a God who tortures or works toward evil things is a God who does not know light, for all who practice evil things do not have the light in them, and secondly because 'God is a God of pure light, darkness is nowhere to be found in him'.

Hell cannot be fair and just because all men, Hitler and Ghandi alike, are imprisoned with temptations, some more than others. All go through a circumstantial life and some stumble upon the right path, and others do not.

'God has imprisoned all mankind in disobedience that he may have mercy on all'.

Jesus said 'narrow is the gate, and few will find it'.

Yet, he didn't come to save those who found it, he came to save the rest - the sinners who did not find it.

 

[Glico]

I would like to believe that God will give everyone a second chance after death, to join him in Heaven, but according to Scriptures, hell is full of fire, and pain and torment.

I believe God's Word is the ultimate truth, and has all the final say in everything. If it says something, then that something is true.

 

[rstrats]

Gilico,

re: "I would like to believe that God will give everyone a second chance after death..."


Or at least a first chance.

 

[Mediate]

I would like to believe that God will give everyone a second chance after death, to join him in Heaven, but according to Scriptures, hell is full of fire, and pain and torment.

I believe God's Word is the ultimate truth, and has all the final say in everything. If it says something, then that something is true.

What you think it says and what it says are two different things. Modern bibles tend to translate three words as hell; gehenna, hades, and shoel. They aren't the same things.

They also translate about 20 - 25 different hebrew and greek words as 'sin', that have specific definitions.

Raah, cha'ah, rasha, avon, pesha, asham, taah, pasha, shagah, hamartia, paraptma, parabasis, asebeia, hamartma, ponros, kakos, adikos, anamos, enochos, hamartan, plana, parabain etc etc.

They all have different meanings and denote different undesireable actions or un-benificial traits or ways of thought.

They do not all mean 'sin'.

That's two examples of biased biblical translation, but there are loads more.

In the original languages, words retain, or in many cases even expound and expand, meaning. In English translations it seems to me that the translators try to compartmentalize and reduce what the bible says to fit the ideology they demand.

 

[HIM_In_Me_In_HIM]

What you think it says and what it says are two different things. Modern bibles tend to translate three words as hell; gehenna, hades, and shoel. They aren't the same things.

They also translate about 20 - 25 different hebrew and greek words as 'sin', that have specific definitions.

Raah, cha'ah, rasha, avon, pesha, asham, taah, pasha, shagah, hamartia, paraptma, parabasis, asebeia, hamartma, ponros, kakos, adikos, anamos, enochos, hamartan, plana, parabain etc etc.

They all have different meanings and denote different undesireable actions or un-benificial traits or ways of thought.

They do not all mean 'sin'.

That's two examples of biased biblical translation, but there are loads more.

In the original languages, words retain, or in many cases even expound and expand, meaning. In English translations it seems to me that the translators try to compartmentalize and reduce what the bible says to fit the ideology they demand.

......with you here.

 

[timbo3]

We can dispense with much of this standard copy/paste from the WTBS library CD. The fact that there is some symbolism in the Bible is not free license to dismiss everything as symbolic. There is an ages old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense." You have tried to tell us what Revelation does not mean, does WTBS have any idea what all this symbolism supposedly means?

The word translated "signs" in Rev 1:1 in the NWT is σημαίνω/semaino it occurs six times in the NT. In the other five occurrences it always refers to something factual not symbolic.

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying [σημαίνω] what death he should die.

Joh 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying [σημαίνω] what death he should die.

Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying [σημαίνω] by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified [σημαίνω] by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Act 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify [σημαίνω] the crimes laid against him.​

Boy are you wrong, and as Jesus said that even "wise and intellectual ones" have failed to unlock what the Bible really says, such as the book of Revelation.(Matt 11:25) And you will continue on your long road to "prove" that there is a "hellfire", despite that the Bible does not support "everlasting torment".

A word in one sentence can have a slightly different meaning in another sentence, just as an English word may have several dissimilar meanings. For example, the word diet". What comes to mind when this word is used ? Most likely "abstaining from food". But it also means "a legislative assembly" or an "assembly in Holy Roman Empire" or "court session in Scotland". Context is everything.

So back to the subject at hand. Does tormenting people make "plain sense", so that it is "nonsense to look for any other sense" ? How can Jehovah God condemn, in fact, exposes his nation of Israel for burning their sons and daughters in the fire, if he already doing this in a so-called "hellfire" ? What is a person called who says one thing and does another ? A hypocrite ! Is God a hypocrite ?

At Jeremiah 7, he says: "They have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’ "(Jer 7:31) How can God have created a place of fiery torment if he has not even thought of doing such a thing ?

And at Jeremiah 19, God says of the nation of Israel: "It is because they abandoned me and made this place unrecognizable.....They built the high places of Ba′al in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to Ba′al, something that I had not commanded or spoken of and that had never even come into my heart.”’(Jer 19: 4, 5) Can a person build anything without it coming into their heart ?

And again at Jeremiah 32, Jehovah says: "Furthermore, they (the Israelites) built the high places of Ba′al in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Mo′lech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing, causing Judah to sin.’ "(Jer 32:35) How can God condemn his people for burning their children in a fire, calling it "detestable" and a "sin", if he is doing the very same thing ?

Thus, God has no place of fiery torment, but this imaginary place was conjured by wicked men (starting in ancient Babylon), who want to see people wreathe in torment and agony, as opposed to Jehovah God, who determines that a person either lives forever because of loving obedience or is dead eternally because of their disregard for his love.

As Jesus said of but two classes of people ("sheep and goats"): "These (the wicked) will depart into everlasting cutting-off (in death), but the righteous ones into everlasting life."(Matt 25:46)

 

[Der Alte]

Boy are you wrong, and as Jesus said that even "wise and intellectual ones" have failed to unlock what the Bible really says, such as the book of Revelation.(Matt 11:25) And you will continue on your long road to "prove" that there is a "hellfire", despite that the Bible does not support "everlasting torment".

A word in one sentence can have a slightly different meaning in another sentence, just as an English word may have several dissimilar meanings. For example, the word diet". What comes to mind when this word is used ? Most likely "abstaining from food". But it also means "a legislative assembly" or an "assembly in Holy Roman Empire" or "court session in Scotland". Context is everything.

If you think the word σημαίνω/semaino has a different meaning in Rev 1:1, which differs from the other five occurrences, in the NT, then you must prove it not just assume and assert it, as you are doing. I read both Biblical languages, do you?

So back to the subject at hand. Does tormenting people make "plain sense", so that it is "nonsense to look for any other sense" ? How can Jehovah God condemn, in fact, exposes his nation of Israel for burning their sons and daughters in the fire, if he already doing this in a so-called "hellfire" ? What is a person called who says one thing and does another ? A hypocrite ! Is God a hypocrite ?

What you or I consider is nonsense, is largely irrelevant because God's thoughts and ways are far above ours. What is relevant is what can be proved from scripture not the subjective feelings and presuppositions of any individual.

At Jeremiah 7, he says: "They have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’ "(Jer 7:31) How can God have created a place of fiery torment if he has not even thought of doing such a thing ?

And at Jeremiah 19, God says of the nation of Israel: "It is because they abandoned me and made this place unrecognizable.....They built the high places of Ba′al in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to Ba′al, something that I had not commanded or spoken of and that had never even come into my heart.”’(Jer 19: 4, 5) Can a person build anything without it coming into their heart ?

And again at Jeremiah 32, Jehovah says: "Furthermore, they (the Israelites) built the high places of Ba′al in the Valley of the Son of Hin′nom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Mo′lech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing, causing Judah to sin.’ "(Jer 32:35) How can God condemn his people for burning their children in a fire, calling it "detestable" and a "sin", if he is doing the very same thing ?

Out-of-context proof texting. Can you not see the difference between God punishing the disobedient and people sacrificing their children in fire, which God had specifically forbidden? That is what God said of, "I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing.[for Israel to sacrifice their children in fire to a pagan idol.]" God can punish the disobedient, in any manner He chooses, for their transgressions, without contradicting your proof texts. God's punishment is not and cannot be compared with people sacrificing their children to a pagan idol.

Thus, God has no place of fiery torment, but this imaginary place was conjured by wicked men (starting in ancient Babylon), who want to see people wreathe in torment and agony, as opposed to Jehovah God, who determines that a person either lives forever because of loving obedience or is dead eternally because of their disregard for his love.

Your OT proof texts do not support this assertion.

As Jesus said of but two classes of people ("sheep and goats"): "These (the wicked) will depart into everlasting cutting-off (in death), but the righteous ones into everlasting life."(Matt 25:46)

This is most interesting, you ignored my post which you quoted, and went off on a tangent about eternal punishment. This is a standard UD ploy.

JW twisting of scripture. Matthew 25:46 does not say "everlasting cutting-off (in death)," The Greek word is κόλασις/kolasis. The definition does not include "cutting off" or "death."

Here is the complete definition from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich lexicon of NT Greek, one of, if not, the most highly renowned lexicons available.

κόλασις punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).

1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​