Is Hell Really Eternal? (2)

[donfish06]

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[Der Alte]

Bump!

 

[1213]

"Is Hell Really Eternal?"[/URL]

I think hell is eternal; its fire is never quenched. I believe that because:

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:43

But do people live in hell eternally? I don’t believe so, because according to the Bible hell is seems to be second death, where body and soul are destroyed and eternal life is for righteous, not for unrighteous.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

 

[THIS]

I think hell is eternal; its fire is never quenched. I believe that because:

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:43

But do people live in hell eternally? I don’t believe so, because according to the Bible hell is seems to be second death, where body and soul are destroyed and eternal life is for righteous, not for unrighteous.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Our spirits do not die after the death of our bodies.

When people are thrown in the lake of fire, they will not even be just spirits anymore; they will be raised with immortal bodies.

 

[Der Alte]

Based on historical evidence, below, the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50" that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[seeingeyes]

Based on historical evidence, below, the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50" that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

You really have to cherry pick the Jewish Encyclopedia Online to get your Gehenna to look like the Jews' Gehenna.

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a).

This is just half a paragraph, yet it has annihilationism, a chance for redemption after death, and special treatment for Jews.

And, as you say, Jesus didn't correct any of that.

 

[Phoneman777]

Our spirits do not die after the death of our bodies.

When people are thrown in the lake of fire, they will not even be just spirits anymore; they will be raised with immortal bodies.

I looked up those references from Malachi, Zechariah, and Hebrews in the Greek. The word "formed" means "shaped". A potter "shapes" the clay, he doesn't change its chemical composition. Neither does God's act of "shaping" His spirit in us change it into anything that is distinct to any person, not the thoughts, memory, or appearance, which then "RETURNS" to God at death, for only that which CAME FORTH from God at our birth can RETURN BACK to God at our death. The other references simply refer to the our spirit that God breathed into us to give us life. No reference to a "spirit man" that flies off somewhere at death that does anything like remember things or feels anything. To the contrary, Solomon says the "dead know not anything" and don't have a "memory", nor do they "work, devise, have knowledge, or wisdom".

 

[jamie2014]

When people are thrown in the lake of fire, they will not even be just spirits anymore; they will be raised with immortal bodies.

Physical bodies are not immortal which is why there was a tree of life in the garden.

Fire sears the lungs and a person can't breath.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46

I can't imagine that Barclay's quote on kolasis hasn't been used in the old thread but I'm not going back and reading the whole thing to find out. Barclay, a universalist and scholar said this about the only verse in the Bible using the phrase "eternal punishment". The popular consensus is that the interpreters misquoted on the basis of doctrinal bias:

Prof William Barclay on kolasis

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees.In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed.Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

The Apostle's Creed, 1967, pp. 188-189

 

[Der Alte]

Physical bodies are not immortal which is why there was a tree of life in the garden.

Fire sears the lungs and a person can't breath.

The fire does not necessarily sear the lungs. If God wants to keep people alive in fire He has done it before and He can do it again, any time He chooses to.

Dan 3:22-25
(22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
(23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(24) Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
(25) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.​

God also caused a bush to burn without being consumed. That is impossible to us humans too.

 

[jamie2014]

Are you saying God will supernaturally keep these people alive by protecting them from the fire? What does this accomplish?

 

[Der Alte]

I can't imagine that Barclay's quote on kolasis hasn't been used in the old thread but I'm not going back and reading the whole thing to find out. Barclay, a universalist and scholar said this about the only verse in the Bible using the phrase "eternal punishment". The popular consensus [Only among Universalists, DA] is that the interpreters misquoted on the basis of doctrinal bias:

Prof William Barclay on kolasis

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees.In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed.Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

The Apostle's Creed, 1967, pp. 188-189

Barclay is a confirmed Universalist, what would you expect him to say? Here is the definition of Kolasis from BAGD one of, if not, the most renowned Greek lexicons available.

κόλασις/kolasis , ew", hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).

1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

 

[Der Alte]

Are you saying God will supernaturally keep these people alive by protecting them from the fire? What does this accomplish?

What part of my post did you not understand? Jesus' teaching on "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50" indicates unending punishment in fire. It has been argued that this is impossible because people in fire their lungs would sear, they would be burned to ashes, etc. I provided scripture which proves that God can and did keep people alive in fire.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Everyone can think of things worse than ceasing to be.

So I you can conceive of eternal conscious torture then God can achieve it? Is this the power of "positive" thinking on a cosmic level?

I can see it on a church motivational poster:
HELL: If you can conceive it, God can achieve it.

I see, so this belief in non-existence of humans being a terrible thing to face, so terrible it would be better to have never existed - oh wait - that is the same state - oh never mind ----anyway apparently a belief in annihilation goes along with believing that God has limits that should include anything we can imagine that we do not like. Good to know.

The point remains unanswered that Jesus also said about the fate of a particular damned, that it would be better if that person NEVER existed - than to face what that person would be facing in the next life. To then suggest that Jesus also said regarding that same fate that what that same person is facing (for which He said it would be better to never exist) is equal to what He just said would better - that makes Jesus sound like a moron.

I get how desperately some want Hell to be a quick, easy painless thing because God would be such a monster to allow anything worse, but to render Him and His Word chibberish just seems to far to me.

 

[Der Alte]

You really have to cherry pick the Jewish Encyclopedia Online to get your Gehenna to look like the Jews' Gehenna.

I ddid not cherry pick anything. I provided a link so anybody who chose to could verify my citations. I also didn't make anything look like anything. If the two sources I quoted, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, did not speak about eternal, unending punishment in Sheol I could not have quoted it.

This is just half a paragraph, yet it has annihilationism, a chance for redemption after death, and special treatment for Jews.

And, as you say, Jesus didn't correct any of that.

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Jesus did not say anything about "annihilationism, a chance for redemption after death, and special treatment for Jews." thus those topics are irrelevant. Jesus did teach about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50" and that supported and validated the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And then how to see God also essentially saying while He walked here that it would be better for a person to have never existed than to face being "forever gone". The view expressed in the above quote regarding another comment He made regarding the damned makes His other statement gibberish. It is nonesense to say it would be better a person never existed than to face ceasing to exist. Everyone can think of things worse than ceasing to be.​

​

Honest question: Is this why you follow God? I mean, if you knew that hell would simply "burn you up" to nothing, would you walk away from your God?

Honest answer: Actually I beleive we (Christians & all humans) all "walk away" from God all the time. It is what some call sin. And we do it knowing or we should know that doing it can result in "burning forever" (whatever that means - and it is not to nothing because God did not make us to ever be "nothing").

So no, I do not believe our concept of Hell stops us from sinning. I think it does (for me and many) provide a good reason to repent.

If you are asking a hypothetical since I do not believe in annihilation, I think ceasing to be represents far less an incentive than the idea of what ever "burning forever" means. But either way, neither concept is going to stop people from sinning.

Just like outlawing guns does not stop people from using guns to kill, and the punishment does not stop them either. What stops people, (well rational people), and makes them think is the idea of getting caught. A rational person commits to a crime, but only after weighing the risk of getting caught verses the PRECIEVED reward - which is similar to our mental process before we commit a sin. With sin however, we are all going to caught - yet we still do it anyway. So no, regardless of how I viewed the punishment for getting caught - it would not stop me from sinning.

 

[seeingeyes]

I ddid not cherry pick anything. I provided a link so anybody who chose to could verify my citations. I also didn't make anything look like anything. If the two sources I quoted, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud, did not speak about eternal, unending punishment in Sheol I could not have quoted it.



Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Jesus did not say anything about "annihilationism, a chance for redemption after death, and special treatment for Jews." thus those topics are irrelevant. Jesus did teach about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50" and that supported and validated the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

The "argument from silence" is your entire argument. Do you really need me to quote that line from your previous posts? Have you forgotten already?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And then how to see God also essentially saying while He walked here that it would be better for a person to have never existed than to face being "forever gone".

Your statement is not biblical.

​

I agree Jesus never said going to Hell was like being "forever gone" but I do not think that was what was meant here by "not biblical".

Let's recap. It was stated that "God can kill a soul" which is true He of course He could. However, the issue in thread is will He and whether Hell represents that. The statement continued supposing God will "kill" souls, that this is what Hell represents and that it means such people will be "gone forever".

Jesus clearly alluded to a particular man fate in the next life being so bad, it would better that that person never existed (never born). Hopefully my reference to that statement by God is not what was meant by "not Biblical".

So my reply simply asked one to consider, given one's belief that people going to Hell are "gone forever", then how could it also be true that not existing ("never born") would be better than not existing ("gone forever")?

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Barclay is a confirmed Universalist, what would you expect him to say?

1. ad hominem: attack on the character of a person rather than his opinions or arguments. Attacking another's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine his or her arguments.

The above obviously carries no weight.

Here is the definition of Kolasis from BAGD one of, if not, the most renowned Greek lexicons available.

2. Renowed? What difference does it make if a "lexicon" is renowed? And renowed according to whom? You? Is there some truth-tested standard available by which we can be persuaded to accept as weighty one lexicon over another, or is one more renowned than another because a consensus of it's readers favor its particular biases? And how do you know the author of what you presented isn't biased toward the idea of an eternal hell and puts forth his own ideology?

You appear to think that a flurry of cut-n-paste containing gobs of abbreviations and Greek spellings passes for legitimacy, but I differ. Barclay's quote was very forthright and seemed well thought out, unencumbered by attempts to look "scholarly" and he cites several others who appear to be in general agreement. You posted nothing that refutes his distinction between the two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis.

I admit, I know next to nothing of Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. You've stated at least 1/2 dozen times in the short time I've been posting in this thread what an expert on Biblical languages you are....is this the best you can do? Can you cite anyone who takes Barclay's argument on directly?

 

[Der Alte]

The "argument from silence" is your entire argument. Do you really need me to quote that line from your previous posts? Have you forgotten already?

Wrong again, as usual. Mine was not an argument from silence because Jesus did in fact teach about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50. This was done in the presence of many Jews, many of whom believed in a place of eternal punishment for sinners, they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. Jesus' teaching about hell would have validated and reinforced the existing belief in hell, among the Jews. Considering that there was an existing belief in hell it is notable that Jesus quite evidently supported that belief, he certainly did not correct it. There may be a great number of things that Jesus did not specifically mention. Unlike what Jesus specifically talked about, His failure to mention these many things cannot be used to prove or disprove anything about them. See the difference?