Is Hell Really Eternal? (2)

[seeingeyes]

I agree but living a good life, running the good race was not the point, nor do we use Hell as a motivation for doing so.

As I keep saying, PART of the motivation for cleaning ourselves up (repetence - seeking forgiveness) when we fall while running this race is a proper fear of the consequences for NOT doing that. We are already in the race, and yes running a good one is FREEDOM. And no we do not run because we are scared of Hell. This much I think we agree on.

I do think for non-Christians PART of the motivation for starting to run a good race would also be concern for the fate of one's soul. And neither do we ask them to run it out of fear for their soul, but out of love for them.

But back to my point, an eternity in Hell is indeed scarier than poof "forever gone" and so logical to fear one more than the other.

But it's not logical to say that one is more likely to be true because it's scarier. That's the same logic that put mythical sea monsters on old maps.

Plus, there's the problem of "who God is". We must always ask how this doctrine or that doctrine presents God our Father. Anything that presents him differently than Jesus did should be scrapped.

 

[jamie2014]

[FONT=&quot]Soul sleep believers try to use scripture...[/FONT]

Do you mean scripture like this?

These things said he and after that he saith unto them, "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go that I may awake him out of sleep." (John 11:11)
​

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death, but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (John 11:13)

​

 

[he-man]

We must always ask how this doctrine or that doctrine presents God our Father. Anything that presents him differently than Jesus did should be scrapped.

Indeed!
So, the question is: Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. Malachi 3:2

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand [in the presence of God] in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

1Co_6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

[he-man]

Do you mean scripture like this?

These things said he and after that he saith unto them, "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go that I may awake him out of sleep." (John 11:11)
​

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death, but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (John 11:13)

​

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The symbol of “sleep” for death is common to all languages, and familiar to us in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, however, a higher meaning is put into it, in relation to believers in Jesus (see on 1Th_4:14), a sense hinted at, and clearly, in Psa_17:15 [Luthardt]; and the “awaking out of sleep” acquires a corresponding sense far transcending bare resuscitation. [JFB]

 

[jamie2014]

The symbol of “sleep” for death is common to all languages, and familiar to us in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, however, a higher meaning is put into it, in relation to believers in Jesus (see on 1Th_4:14), a sense hinted at, and clearly, in Psa_17:15 [Luthardt]; and the “awaking out of sleep” acquires a corresponding sense far transcending bare resuscitation. [JFB]

Are you saying Jesus did not resurrect Lazarus?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you saying Jesus did not resurrect Lazarus?

I did a study on that and behold!
Lazarus was dead/sleeping for the same amount of time as the 2 witnesses in Revelation. How kewl is that!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7461118/#post54553876
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity

John 11:39
Jesus is saying "take away ye! the stone".
Martha, the sister of the one deceased, is saying to Him "Lord, already he stinking! for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a great voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"

Reve 11:11
And after the three and half days, a breath of life out of YAHWEH entered in them and they stand upon their feet
and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!"
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud....

.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

But it's not logical to say that one is more likely to be true because it's scarier. That's the same logic that put mythical sea monsters on old maps.

I did not say I was using logic to suggest one view of Hell is "more likely to be true". I said it is logical that a reasonable person would fear an eternity in Hell MORE than "poof forever gone". Nothing in this reply refutes that.

Plus, there's the problem of "who God is". We must always ask how this doctrine or that doctrine presents God our Father. Anything that presents him differently than Jesus did should be scrapped.

Ahhh, the problem of suffering (again). This was covered earlier, but in short if God would have a PR problem ALLOWING suffering in Hell for eternity then:

1) Why would He (Jesus) talk about the whole experience of Hell in the same breath as that of Heaven - constrasting the two without ANY caveat that one experience was temporary? - in fact He was giving the opposite impression to most folks - especially those hearing Him that already believed in an eternal bad trip for bad people. He does not correct them in what He says about, He reinforces their belief.

2) Then God has a PR problem now with the suffering He allows. Or else in not blaming Him because of duration and giving Him a slide if suffering is relatively brief compared to an eternity in Hell - then one is saying it is ok if a doctrine presents a small "presentation" problem for God but not if it is a big presentation problem. (and yes I agree that makes no sense - but then it is not my view which claims an eternity of suffering in Hell would create presentation problems for God). IMO one is saying it is ok if God ignores a little suffering, but not ok if He ignores it if it lasts a long time.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The phrase "never existed" is not in the KJV. What Bible version are you using?

Well am not a Mormon and did not think I was carrying with one. All Christians I have met believe we are created by our parents in our mother's womb and God gives us a soul/spirit (some see those as two things only one from God). We do not "pre-exist".

What would your understanding of saying "better had He never been born" be if it did not mean to never have existed?

 

[jamie2014]

What would your understanding of saying "better had He never been born" be if it did not mean to never have existed?

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Good were it for that man if he had never been born. (Mark 14:21)
​

Everyone sins but Judas experienced bitter sorrow over what he had done, so much so they he chose not to live. And his bitter sorrow is not over, he forfeited the kingdom of God and supervision over one of the tribes of Israel. This is something he will have to live with forever, what's done is done and cannot be undone much to his regret.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Good were it for that man if he had never been born. (Mark 14:21)
​

Everyone sins but Judas experienced bitter sorrow over what he had done, so much so they he chose not to live. And his bitter sorrow is not over, he forfeited the kingdom of God and supervision over one of the tribes of Israel. This is something he will have to live with forever, what's done is done and cannot be undone much to his regret.

So your suggestion is that God is saying it does not matter whether Judas is in Heaven or Hell, where ever he ends up he is going to regret it so much it would be better if he had just never existed. Seems an odd way to view that statement. But then I find a lot of UT views of Scripture odd.

And I notice answering my last question was avoided. Was that intentional?

 

[THIS]

Do you mean scripture like this?

These things said he and after that he saith unto them, "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go that I may awake him out of sleep." (John 11:11)
​

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death, but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (John 11:13)

​

Are you trying to say those who SLEEP are really DEAD? hahahaha

 

[THIS]

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)
​

You are confusing the second resurrection with the first resurrection.

I am not confused. You are confused. The first resurrection is when we are saved.


Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

 

[jamie2014]

Are you trying to say those who SLEEP are really DEAD? hahahaha

Are you mocking Jesus? If so why?

 

[jamie2014]

The first resurrection is when we are saved.

Which will occur at Christ's coming.

Behold, I shew you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by THIS

Are you trying to say those who SLEEP are really DEAD? hahahaha
​

Are you mocking Jesus? If so why?

What do both of you think of this post concerning the death/sleep of Lazarus?


http://www.christianforums.com/t7829294/#post65880246


.

 

[he-man]

Which will occur at Christ's coming.

Behold, I shew you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)​

HELL
6913. keh’-ber; or (fem.)kib-raw’; from 6912; a sepulchre:— burying place, grave, sepulchre. See 6900. 1
6900. keb-oo-raw’; or keb-oo-raw’; fem. pass. part. of 6912; sepulture; (concr.) a sepulchre:— burial, burying place, grave, sepulchre.2
7585.sheh-ole’; or sheh-ole’; from 7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), incl. its accessories and inmates:— grave, hell, pit.3
hah´-dace; from [FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT] (as neg. particle) and [FONT=Symbol, serif][/FONT]; prop. unseen, i.e. “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls:— grave, hell.4
gheh´-en-nah; of Heb. or. [1516 and 2011]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (fig.) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: This is the second death.— hell.5
a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment):— grave, sepulchre, tomb.6

Psalm 31:17
17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. 8

Psalm 49:20
20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish. 9

Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?10

1 Corinthians 15:55
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 11

Psalm 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness? 12

Psalm 89:48
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. 13

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. 14

Isaiah 14:4
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 15

Isaiah 14:12-19
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 16

Isaiah 38:18-19
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. 17

1 Samuel 2:10
10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.18

1 Kings 2:9-10
9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. 10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.19

1 Kings 13:30-31
30 And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother! 31 And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones: 20

2 Kings 22:20
20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.21

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
1James Strong, New Strong’s dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1996.
​

 

[Phoneman777]

Physical bodies are not immortal which is why there was a tree of life in the garden.

Fire sears the lungs and a person can't breath.

Amen

 

[Der Alte]

Physical bodies are not immortal which is why there was a tree of life in the garden.

Fire sears the lungs and a person can't breath.

Amen

If God can cause a bush to burn without being consumed and three men thrown into a funace without dying or even being singed, I'm sure He can keep people alive to be punished in fire if He chooses to.

Exo 3:1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

Dan 3:22 The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego,
23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?"
They replied, "Certainly, O king."
25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."​

 

[jamie2014]

If God can cause a bush to burn without being consumed and three men thrown into a funace without dying or even being singed, I'm sure He can keep people alive to be punished in fire if He chooses to.

The men in the furnace were not tormented.

 

[Phoneman777]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your looking up Greek words means nothing.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Soul sleep believers try to use scripture from Ecclesiastes to support their false beliefs that our spirits do not live on after the death of our bodies, but the part of Ecclesiastes they use is about a message of if there were no God. Ecclesiastes also says the dead have no more reward (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Do you believe that the dead have no more reward? The Old Testament believers believed in a resurrection (Job 19:25-27; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; and others), so why would Solomon say the dead have no more reward if not to imagine a life without God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Soul sleepers also use a few scriptures in Psalms to try to say the spirits of humans die with the body. There is no scripture in Psalms that says that. One must remember too that the Old Testament people did not yet have the entire gospel. Ecclesiastes is about earthly man. Read what Solomon says in Ecclesiastes in 3:18-21 I also thought, “As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man’s fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Did you read how Solomon says, "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?” Solomon says, “Who knows…” Surely, the New Testament teaches us about what is spiritual![/FONT]

What is this stuff about Solomon words being hypothetical? The same Solomon says in chapter 12 that his words are "acceptable" and "wise" and sturdy as "nails" and "upright" and "truth" given by the One Shepherd, Jesus. Anyway, no one says that the spirit dies, ok? It RETURNS to God who gave it, whether it leaves the body of a righteous man, a wicked man, or an animal, got it? It RETURNS to God who gave it. Now, if you've been up there with God before you were born, then I'll believe that you can RETURN to God when you die. If not, get used to being in a dreamless, unconscious sleep until Jesus comes back, while the spirit that God put in you when you began RETURNS to Him when you end.