Is Hell really a place of fire?

[The Fire Rises]

Yes, people DO have free will. Not going to debate that, because there is scripture on both sides, and we've all heard it before.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. We are all destined for hell. We all deserve to go there. Those of us who accept Jesus' substitute atonement, and make Him Lord of our lives, are granted the righteousness of Christ, and are bound for Heaven.

If people reject God, they will go to hell. Their own sin will send them there. But it is the acceptance/rejection of the sacrifice of Christ that dictates which direction we will go.

Thank you.

 

[asiyreh]

I've chosen to respond to this topic of my own free will.

Saying you don't have free will is a self defeating argument. Although I agree that certain passages of the bible teach Calvinistic doctrines there are many that refute the idea.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Luke 13:34

This one springs to mind immediately. Look at the emotion here in Christ's words.

Anybody that wants to study Calvanism James White has some great videos. Just don't let it crush your Christian spirit.

I've always felt this connection to something greater than myself. The Lord of course. I think maybe even the atheist feels this connection. Jesus uses many analogies to explain hell. I can't imagine anything worse than God completely removing his connection to me.

 

[The Fire Rises]

I've chosen to respond to this topic of my own free will.

Saying you don't have free will is a self defeating argument. Although I agree that certain passages of the bible teach Calvinistic doctrines there are many that refute the idea.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Luke 13:34

This one springs to mind immediately. Look at the emotion here in Christ's words.

Anybody that wants to study Calvanism James White has some great videos. Just don't let it crush your Christian spirit.

I've always felt this connection to something greater than myself. The Lord of course. I think maybe even the atheist feels this connection. Jesus uses many analogies to explain hell. I can't imagine anything worse than God completely removing his connection to me.

I feel like there's some sort of balance between free will and predestination, but obviously I don't know what that would be. That's another subject for another time.

But regarding your last sentence, that's what I was getting at earlier. For Christians, the idea of life without God is Hell on it's own. Now one could argue that this isn't the case for atheists, but I would say that's not the case. Everyone has a choice of accepting or rejecting God and the salvation He offers.

Those who reject it in order to continue living for themselves and their sin, may be living contradictory to God, but they're not living in a world or existence in which God isn't there. He is active on this earth as we can all attest to, His Spirit moves here.

Being sent to a place where even that is gone, where there is no good, love, or mercy would be Hell for believers and non-believers alike. Even more than that, they would understand what they missed out on and have to live with that regret and sorrow for eternity, it would be the deepest heartbreak we've ever had on earth, multiplied by infinity. It's indescribable agony in a place where there is no such thing as time, the only reality is darkness and sorrow...so I'm not sure why flames would be necessary on top of all that.

I'm not trying to soften the idea of Hell by saying "Well, on the bright side there may not actually be fire", I'm just looking at this from a practical viewpoint.

Does God torture people? No.
Did He create Hell? Yes.
If there are flames in Hell, who would have created them? God.
What purpose would flames serve other than torture? None that I can think of.
Which brings up back to our first question.

Not sure how else I can say that. I realize this offends some people because it flies in the face of their beliefs about Hell, but this is just my opinion, I'm not claiming it to be fact or anything like that. Just looking at this from a different perspective.

 

[asiyreh]

I feel like there's some sort of balance between free will and predestination, but obviously I don't know what that would be. That's another subject for another time.

William Lane Craig does some excellent coverage of the topic. Look for his Defenders podcasts

He purposes that God has middle knowledge. He knows what you will do. Suppose though we removed the middle knowledge from the equation. This wouldn't influence the decision that the person made one way or the other.

On the other hand I'm quite taken with the doctrines of Grace. I feel this most closely relates to nature of my own conversion experience. Most Christians can't handle the idea however. It only seems to cater to a certain type of mind.

I have to confess I'm not sure, having experienced the Lord, I could ever leave him. Perhaps to a degree I no longer have that free will. But I'm really happy about it... so....

 

[The Fire Rises]

William Lane Craig does some excellent coverage of the topic. Look for his Defenders podcasts

He purposes that God has middle knowledge. He knows what you will do. Suppose though we removed the middle knowledge from the equation. This wouldn't influence the decision that the person made one way or the other.

On the other hand I'm quite taken with the doctrines of Grace. I feel this most closely relates to nature of my own conversion experience. Most Christians can't handle the idea however. It only seems to cater to a certain type of mind.

I have to confess I'm not sure, having experienced the Lord, I could ever leave him. Perhaps to a degree I no longer have that free will. But I'm really happy about it... so....

I understand what you mean completely, because I've experienced the same thing. I believe this is referred to as "irresistible grace" by some people.

 

[Shulamite7]

"Philosophers, scholars and scientists are dangerous ... "

YES - because they THINK.
Is seeking the truth dangerous? It is to some.
Gideon123

They are not dangerous because they think. Everybody thinks. Who doesn't? Its not only the so called scientists or philosophers who can think. But they are dangerous when they twist the Word of God and fill up people's minds with lies. What about the great lie that man descended from monkeys. I believe that only the Word of God is total and complete truth. It is flawless.

No, seeking the truth is not dangerous for me because I seek after the truth in the Bible and not some man made truths.

 

[Eric Hibbert]

Fire doesn't hurt spirit, so if it's literal, it must not be very tormenting.

Except for one small problem: the dead will be raised physically, not spiritually.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

I've been reading an excellent book by Lee Strobel called "The Case for Faith". One of the proffessors he interviews is philosopher J.P. Moreland.

When talking about Hell, Moreland claims that the "fires of hell" are just figurative speech. Here's an excerpt:

Lee: "You have to admit that when it comes to talking about Hell, the Bible certainly does have a tendency to refer to flames."

Moreland: "That's true, but the flames are a figure of speech."

Lee: "Okay, wait a mintue. I thought you were a conservative scholar. Are you going to try to soften the idea of Hell to make it more palatable?"

Moreland: "Absolutely not. I just want to be biblically accurate. We know that the reference to flames is figurative because if we try to take it literally, it makes no sense. For example, Hell is described as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames, too. How can that be? Flames would light things up."

"In addition, we're told Christ is going to return surrouned by flames and that he's going to have a big sword coming out of His mouth. But nobody thinks he'll be choking on a sword. The figure of the sword stands for the word of God in judgement. The flames stand for Christ coming in judgement. In Hebrews 12:29, God is called a consuming fire. Yet nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Using the flame imagery is way of saying he's a God of judgement."

Frankly, this makes sense to me. I've also read NDE's where people describe Hell as being very dark, but mention nothing about any sort of flames or eternal fire.

In our culture Hell is always characterized by fire but is it not beyond possibility that this is just taking a figure of speech out of context?

Regardless which it is, Hell is a real physical place that the Unregenerate Person along with Satan and his Angels will find themselves in for eternity without end. It will be the exact opposite of Heaven in many many regards. The greatest thing perhaps, is that there will be great regret with no getting out of its bondage. It is an eternal crime to reject, mock, ridicule, the living Creator of us all , and all things.

Moreland is a good scholar and fire in Hell may be figurative, but, there are other scriptures which describe the physical place of Hell occupying the element of sulphur , etc... which leads me to conclude that real fires might be part of the experience. We DO know that people who end up in Hell eventually, WILL have reconfigured physical Bodies that will last for eternity but will be made to feel pain and emotions , just like their Counterparts who make it to Heaven except without any semblence of pain/sorrow/regret/etc...

I also read Case for Faith and find Strobels books on the Series very well written and informative.

 

[Eric Hibbert]

I also read Case for Faith and find Strobels books on the Series very well written and informative.

My biggest problem with the book is that it seems to be based on Pascal's Wager. The whole tone of the books seems to be "Try Jesus. What have you got to lose?"

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

My biggest problem with the book is that it seems to be based on Pascal's Wager. The whole tone of the books seems to be "Try Jesus. What have you got to lose?"

I cant say that i come away with that after reading his Series ; based on the compelling evidences he shows thru interviewing these top Scholars , i come away with 'Its vital to go where the evidence is leading' and abandon any apriori-commitment to Secular Humanism which One has found philosophically palatable.

 

[Eric Hibbert]

I cant say that i come away with that after reading his Series ; based on the compelling evidences he shows thru interviewing these top Scholars , i come away with 'Its vital to go where the evidence is leading' and abandon any apriori-commitment to Secular Humanism which One has found philosophically palatable.

Don't get me wrong, they're interesting books. It's just that, for something along those lines, I prefer Greenleaf's Testiony of the Evangelists.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Don't get me wrong, they're interesting books. It's just that, for something along those lines, I prefer Greenleaf's Testiony of the Evangelists.

Expert Law Professor, Simon Greenleaf, and his unbiased pursuit of putting the N.T. to a stringent Court of Law evidential Test culminating in his popular Book , is certainly an apologetic instrument of high value.

 

[aiki]

Is Hell really a place of fire? I've been reading an excellent book by Lee Strobel called "The Case for Faith". One of the proffessors he interviews is philosopher J.P. Moreland.

When talking about Hell, Moreland claims that the "fires of hell" are just figurative speech. Here's an excerpt:

Lee: "You have to admit that when it comes to talking about Hell, the Bible certainly does have a tendency to refer to flames."

Moreland: "That's true, but the flames are a figure of speech."

Lee: "Okay, wait a mintue. I thought you were a conservative scholar. Are you going to try to soften the idea of Hell to make it more palatable?"

Moreland: "Absolutely not. I just want to be biblically accurate. We know that the reference to flames is figurative because if we try to take it literally, it makes no sense. For example, Hell is described as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames, too. How can that be? Flames would light things up."

"In addition, we're told Christ is going to return surrouned by flames and that he's going to have a big sword coming out of His mouth. But nobody thinks he'll be choking on a sword. The figure of the sword stands for the word of God in judgement. The flames stand for Christ coming in judgement. In Hebrews 12:29, God is called a consuming fire. Yet nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Using the flame imagery is way of saying he's a God of judgement."

Okay. Well, as much as I respect what Dr. Moreland has written about Christian apologetics I just don't find his above argument particularly compelling. If Moreland is going to take the descriptions of Hell being a place of tormenting flame figuratively, why doesn't he take the descriptions of Hell as a place of darkness figuratively, too? Why does He only choose to make the flames figurative? Why can't we simply reverse his thinking and propose that the darkness is the part of Hell that is figurative and the flames are real? From what you've offered of Moreland's reasoning, there is no reason I can see why we can't. It seems to me, then, that his argument against the flames of Hell is pretty inconsistent since he doesn't apply it across the board to all descriptions of Hell.

The descriptions we find of Hell in Scripture are not presented in a way that suggests that they are to be taken figuratively. We have the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, as well, which strongly reinforces the idea that Hell is a place of flames.

Moreland tries to compare the flames of Hell to the flaming sword coming out of Christ's mouth as though they are directly parallel types of descriptions. This seems to me a bit of lazy reasoning on Moreland's part. I have seen flames burning in the darkness of the night. As big as the fires got, they never dispelled the darkness of the night. I'm sure others have seen this as well. I can't, though, ever recall a flaming sword issuing from a person's mouth. This just doesn't happen. Ever. Are the two descriptions directly parallel, then? Not at all. The former is very much within the scope of reality and human experience, the latter is not. Of the two descriptions then, the darkness and flames of hell bear a literal reading much better than the flaming sword of judgment popping out of Christ's mouth. This seems pretty obvious to me...

Frankly, this makes sense to me. I've also read NDE's where people describe Hell as being very dark, but mention nothing about any sort of flames or eternal fire.

In general, NDE's are often contradictory both to each other and to Scripture. They don't serve, then, as a trustworthy source of information about the afterlife.

In our culture Hell is always characterized by fire but is it not beyond possibility that this is just taking a figure of speech out of context?

For the reasons I gave above, I don't think Moreland's idea about the flames of Hell being figurative is really warranted.

Selah.

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

'Frankly, this makes sense to me. I've also read NDE's where people describe Hell as being very dark, but mention nothing about any sort of flames or eternal fire'.....

REPLY: You havent read this book of actual accounts of ressusitation given by (a then) atheist Surgeon who started to tape record the horrific events of victims loosing consciousness then being awakened as He was working on them :http://www.amazon.com/To-Hell-Back-...d=1363534809&sr=8-4&keywords=To+Hell+and+Back . Get a good used copy of the book for just $.01 .

His personal experiences with these people were enough to convert him from staunch atheism to Christian.

 

[Spunkn]

How do we know flames gives off light in Hell just because it does here on Earth? Why do the flames have to be "normal" like flames here on earth? Hell is hardly a normal place.

It's dangerous to make assumptions that things work the same way here as they do in places that we really do not know how -exactly- they work.

We can know some things about them, based on what we are told. But I doubt we know everything about them. Same thing goes for heaven, I think we're all going to be surprised at how it works when we get there.

But the bottomline is, Hell is a real place, and not a very nice one regardless of what is truly in it. If Hell was not real, or if they are annihilated in "hell" why would unbelievers care about coming to Christ. They can live their life the way they want, party, do whatever and in the end they just get destroyed.

Except that God is not mocked. There will be eternal punishment because God is eternally righteous and just.

I struggle with the idea of an eternal judgement just as much as anyone else does, but it is still truth. And it should motivate us to be testimonies of Christ in our lives so that others will accept the truth of Christ and avoid choosing to go there. As I think someone else mentioned before.

God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We're all bound there. They choose to go by rejecting the free gift of salvation.

 

[ezeric]

First off, the Jews don't believe in "hell" like many of us Christians do.
So that should bring a warning flag, if you believe that salvation is of the jews (because of JESUS) and that all (O.T) is a shadow of JESUS and and example of deeper life.

This should make us think!

Also, the first time fire is used (in the bible) is the 'burning bush' and this GOD 'who is a consuming fire' didn't evidently consume the tree (bush) as it was NOT consumed or destroyed.

GOD'S fire, is all about cleansing not destruction - which is a HUGE difference!

The word we use as hell is really a translated word for the place Ben Hinnom which is a hebrew name of a real place - a place we could go to today! Its the outside area to Jerusalem, and what once was more of a 'dump' now is flourishing and green which is another prophetic answer.

We've changed the name of a place to something of our own (demonic) design,
doctrines of demons.

Our LORD said this: "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom (what we have so thoughtlessly translated to 'hell') to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Jeremiah 32:35

There are other verses also like "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind." Jeremiah 7:31

GOD never had in HIS mind, the idea of putting children into the fire.
It is something demons (devils) invented ...Molech being the name of a demon deity (although nothing to us who are loved by JESUS).

We tell people GOD created hell and HE sends us there, when HE says its a sin to do it!

Or we tell them that 'we choose to go there' by ignoring GOD making GOD not able to save but is contingent on us - when salvation is all about HIM (nothing to do with us).

Also, by admitting there is hell, means that JESUS failed in HIS mission.
It also puts and hinges our entire faith on "Man's" decision and not on GOD'S GRACE.

It also means that what the first Adam brought (death, sin, and destruction, curse) the last Adam (JESUS) couldn't un-do.

So LIFE doesn't swallow up death, but death would swallow LIFE.
and then there is darkness over taking LIGHT.
And this hell, where there is darkness and eternal torment, GOD Isn't there, because if HE was there, there would be LIFE and LIGHT and PEACE as the Bible teaches there is no place you can go from HIS presence.

I could go on and on, but this 'hell' teaching only produces fear and not faith.
It never brings us to the inner sanctuary (the holy of hollies) with the FATHER (DADDY) inside but makes us angered, and fearful -we can't rest, thinking GOD is out to get us.

Sorry, I used to teach hell, until the HOLY SPIRIT started to teach me and change my idol thinking god; for the GOD that is LOVE that never fails.

For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:32


-eric

 

[Johnnz]

A sensible post at last. Well done,

Much of Christian teaching on Hell derives from Dante, not a good understanding of the biblical texts.

John
NZ

 

[agile tounge]

If only our souls continue to exist after death, and our bodies are the source of pain from fire. What kind of punishment would that be? It would be painless. I think hell and the lake of fire are places of constant fear, regret, and spiritual agony.

 

[aiki]

Also, the first time fire is used (in the bible) is the 'burning bush' and this GOD 'who is a consuming fire' didn't evidently consume the tree (bush) as it was NOT consumed or destroyed.

THe purpose of the burning bush was to attract Moses' attention and to make it clear that he was in a moment with God Himself. Contrast this fire to the one from heaven that consumed Sodom and Gommorah, burning the cities to cinders; or the fire from heaven that consumed the emissaries of the wicked king Ahaziah when they went to capture the prophet Elijah; or the fire from God at Taberah that consumed the murmuring Israelites; or the fire from heaven that utterly consumed the altar and offering of Elijah upon mount Carmel, and so on.

GOD'S fire, is all about cleansing not destruction - which is a HUGE difference!

Tell that to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah! Or to the Egyptians upon whom God rained hail and fire!

The word we use as hell is really a translated word for the place Ben Hinnom which is a hebrew name of a real place - a place we could go to today! Its the outside area to Jerusalem, and what once was more of a 'dump' now is flourishing and green which is another prophetic answer.

We've changed the name of a place to something of our own (demonic) design,
doctrines of demons.

The place of burning, known as Ge-Hinnom from which the word "Gehenna" is derived, outside of Jerusalem was, at the time it was referenced in Scripture, not a green valley but a place filled with burning refuse. In this state, it was a fitting (though lesser) picture of the nature of Gehenna (the lake of fire). It was not understood by the earliest believers to be the actual place of Hell but only in certain respects like hell (ie smoke and burning). Since this was the generally understood etymology of the term "Gehenna" among the early Christians, it should also be ours. That the valley of Ge-Hinnom has changed does not affect the ancient meaning it was intended to convey.

GOD never had in HIS mind, the idea of putting children into the fire.
It is something demons (devils) invented ...Molech being the name of a demon deity (although nothing to us who are loved by JESUS).

But God did burn to death the entire population of Sodom and Gommorah (save Lot and his family), which would have included children. The fiery hail that fell upon Egypt did not only fall upon adults. You see, you can't make up an entire doctrine by proof-texting. You must consider the whole counsel of Scripture, which does not agree with what you are proposing about Hell.

We tell people GOD created hell and HE sends us there, when HE says its a sin to do it!

Verses that condemn pagan worship do not constitute a condemnation of God's fiery judgment of the wicked. No where in all of Scripture will you find a single verse that says it is a sin for God to send people to Hell or to teach what Christ taught about the eternal danger of it.

Or we tell them that 'we choose to go there' by ignoring GOD making GOD not able to save but is contingent on us - when salvation is all about HIM (nothing to do with us).

Yes, salvation is all about God. But how, exactly, does this negate the verses in Scripture which speak explicitly of God's terrible wrath and judgment upon the wicked?

Also, by admitting there is hell, means that JESUS failed in HIS mission.

Oh? How so? What do you think Jesus' "mission" was? Scripture tells us that he came to atone for sin and to thereby open the way for sinful humanity to be reconciled to their holy God. How does Hell cause what Christ did as the Lamb of God to fail?

It also puts and hinges our entire faith on "Man's" decision and not on GOD'S GRACE.

Hell does this? How so? God saves all who would be saved. See Molinism.

It also means that what the first Adam brought (death, sin, and destruction, curse) the last Adam (JESUS) couldn't un-do.

Again, how so? This isn't what Scripture teaches at all. There is no mutual exclusivity between the atoning and reconciling work of Christ on the cross and God's punishment of the unrepentant wicked in Hell. Christ has conquered sin and death and God will judge the wicked. No where does Scripture state that the former necessarily excludes the latter.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 8:23-24
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Matthew 13:40-42
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. [/FONT]

So LIFE doesn't swallow up death, but death would swallow LIFE.

I don't understand why it must be one or the other. Does the shining of the sun preclude all shadows? The apostle Paul writes of death being swallowed up in the victory of Christ and mortality being swallowed up of life, but in both instances he is speaking specifically of the glorified and incorruptible body every believer will receive after they die. He is not teaching a general principle governing everyone.

and then there is darkness over taking LIGHT.

How does the existence of a place of punishment of the wicked mean that darkness has overtaken light?

And this hell, where there is darkness and eternal torment, GOD Isn't there, because if HE was there, there would be LIFE and LIGHT and PEACE as the Bible teaches there is no place you can go from HIS presence.

This doesn't make sense. God is imminent in His Creation but there is sin and darkness and death in it as well. The presence of God does not necessarily preclude the presence of these other things.

I could go on and on, but this 'hell' teaching only produces fear and not faith.

Obviously.

It never brings us to the inner sanctuary (the holy of hollies) with the FATHER (DADDY) inside

As a place of punishment it is not intended as a vehicle for fellowship with God. This seems very apparent to me...

but makes us angered, and fearful -we can't rest, thinking GOD is out to get us.

This is exactly how the unrepentant wicked should feel. He is out to get them! And if they don't repent and receive Christ as Saviour and Lord they will suffer the awful wrath of an angry God.

Sorry, I used to teach hell, until the HOLY SPIRIT started to teach me and change my idol thinking god; for the GOD that is LOVE that never fails.

I'm afraid I don't see that this is so - at all. Your comments do not convey sound doctrine or biblical truth. As so many today seem to want to do, you have abandoned a full picture of God for one that over-emphasizes His love. You have embraced a caricature of God that is impossible to reconcile to His wrath, holiness and justice. Unfortunately, you have had to abandon the clear and explicit teaching of Scripture to do so.

Selah.

 

[toolite]

Fire doesn't hurt spirit, so if it's literal, it must not be very tormenting.

Ok.. One person.. Eternal Life is given by God to all the good and the good who turns bad.. this is how the bad knows torment.. The soul is you.. once in spirit a person will see that flesh was never needed.. Glory To God.. and you are you...

Glory To God