Is Hell really a place of fire?

[ezeric]

THe purpose of the burning bush was to attract Moses' attention and to make it clear that he was in a moment with God Himself. Contrast this fire to the one from heaven that consumed Sodom and Gommorah, burning the cities to cinders; or the fire from heaven that consumed the emissaries of the wicked king Ahaziah when they went to capture the prophet Elijah; or the fire from God at Taberah that consumed the murmuring Israelites; or the fire from heaven that utterly consumed the altar and offering of Elijah upon mount Carmel, and so on.

Tell that to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gommorah! Or to the Egyptians upon whom God rained hail and fire!

The place of burning, known as Ge-Hinnom from which the word "Gehenna" is derived, outside of Jerusalem was, at the time it was referenced in Scripture, not a green valley but a place filled with burning refuse. In this state, it was a fitting (though lesser) picture of the nature of Gehenna (the lake of fire). It was not understood by the earliest believers to be the actual place of Hell but only in certain respects like hell (ie smoke and burning). Since this was the generally understood etymology of the term "Gehenna" among the early Christians, it should also be ours. That the valley of Ge-Hinnom has changed does not affect the ancient meaning it was intended to convey.

But God did burn to death the entire population of Sodom and Gommorah (save Lot and his family), which would have included children. The fiery hail that fell upon Egypt did not only fall upon adults. You see, you can't make up an entire doctrine by proof-texting. You must consider the whole counsel of Scripture, which does not agree with what you are proposing about Hell.

Verses that condemn pagan worship do not constitute a condemnation of God's fiery judgment of the wicked. No where in all of Scripture will you find a single verse that says it is a sin for God to send people to Hell or to teach what Christ taught about the eternal danger of it.

Yes, salvation is all about God. But how, exactly, does this negate the verses in Scripture which speak explicitly of God's terrible wrath and judgment upon the wicked?

Oh? How so? What do you think Jesus' "mission" was? Scripture tells us that he came to atone for sin and to thereby open the way for sinful humanity to be reconciled to their holy God. How does Hell cause what Christ did as the Lamb of God to fail?

Hell does this? How so? God saves all who would be saved. See Molinism.

Again, how so? This isn't what Scripture teaches at all. There is no mutual exclusivity between the atoning and reconciling work of Christ on the cross and God's punishment of the unrepentant wicked in Hell. Christ has conquered sin and death and God will judge the wicked. No where does Scripture state that the former necessarily excludes the latter.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 8:23-24
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Matthew 13:40-42
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Revelation 20:13-15
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. [/FONT]

I don't understand why it must be one or the other. Does the shining of the sun preclude all shadows? The apostle Paul writes of death being swallowed up in the victory of Christ and mortality being swallowed up of life, but in both instances he is speaking specifically of the glorified and incorruptible body every believer will receive after they die. He is not teaching a general principle governing everyone.

How does the existence of a place of punishment of the wicked mean that darkness has overtaken light?

This doesn't make sense. God is imminent in His Creation but there is sin and darkness and death in it as well. The presence of God does not necessarily preclude the presence of these other things.

Obviously.

As a place of punishment it is not intended as a vehicle for fellowship with God. This seems very apparent to me...

This is exactly how the unrepentant wicked should feel. He is out to get them! And if they don't repent and receive Christ as Saviour and Lord they will suffer the awful wrath of an angry God.

I'm afraid I don't see that this is so - at all. Your comments do not convey sound doctrine or biblical truth. As so many today seem to want to do, you have abandoned a full picture of God for one that over-emphasizes His love. You have embraced a caricature of God that is impossible to reconcile to His wrath, holiness and justice. Unfortunately, you have had to abandon the clear and explicit teaching of Scripture to do so.

Selah.

I won't debate you, as this is not the place.

I have given tons of scripture including Romans 11:32 (and there are many more) which you didn't comment on. Your answers I am well aware of as I used to teach it. Its simply doctrines of demons taught by religious man. 1 Timothy 4:1

And that idea of GOD - is more like my devil.

I even referenced the scriptures in Jeremiah, where GOD never even thought of a place where children were burned and that is in the same valley of Gehenna that we talk about using the mistranslated word 'hell'.

But I wonder which side you are defending? as I am defending Heaven and you are defending.....?

In Great GRACE

-eric

 

[aiki]

But I wonder which side you are defending? as I am defending Heaven and you are defending.....?

I don't mean to be rude, but you aren't defending heaven, you are defending a caricature of God. I am not. I am defending the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment. If you had at one time taught this doctrine, I suspect, given your present perspective, that you neither understood nor taught it well.

You'll notice that I didn't imply that your views were demonic, though they are profoundly in error. You see, I don't need to resort to such inflammatory rhetoric in order to explain myself. It's been my experience that those who want to characterize the views of others in such extremes, aren't really secure in their own position.

Selah.

 

[The Fire Rises]

I don't mean to be rude, but you aren't defending heaven, you are defending a caricature of God. I am not. I am defending the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment. If you had at one time taught this doctrine, I suspect, given your present perspective, that you neither understood nor taught it well.

You'll notice that I didn't imply that your views were demonic, though they are profoundly in error. You see, I don't need to resort to such inflammatory rhetoric in order to explain myself. It's been my experience that those who want to characterize the views of others in such extremes, aren't really secure in their own position.

Selah.

I tend to agree with you, and if I may elaborate.

In my opinion, people tend to to evaluate whether Hell is appropriate based on their feelings or their emotional response to it. I think that before anyone discusses Hell, they should try to set aside their feelings. The basis of their evaluation should be whether Hell is morally just, not whether they like/dislike the concept.

Many atheists like to paint the idea of Hell as some sort of torture chamber where God punishes people for "not being good enough". They say 'How could a loving God, just because you don't obey him and do what he wants, torture you forever. He won't even allow you to die, but rather allows you to continue in your pain for all of eternity.' But, nothing could be further from the truth.

God doesn't torture people in Hell, although I can understand how people can view it that way. God is the most generous, wonderful, loving being in existence. He created us with free will and made us for one purpose: to relate lovingly to him and to others. Now, if we fail over and over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've essentially asked our entire lives, which is separation from Him. Otherwise known as: Hell.

So I feel that, if you admit free will exists, you have to admit that Hell exists, because we have a choice to either accept or reject God. If he coerced or forced us into loving Him, that would be violating our free will.

And one more thing, God is often portrayed as a loving being, which He most certainly is. But he's also a just, moral and pure being. People these days tend to care only for the softer virtues like love and tenderness (usually associated with Christ) while they've forgotten about the hard virtues of holiness, righteousness and justice (often associated with the Father). But that's just my two cents.

Sorry for the long post

 

[Eric Hibbert]

God is the most generous, wonderful, loving being in existence. He created us with free will and made us for one purpose: to relate lovingly to him and to others. Now, if we fail over and over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've essentially asked our entire lives, which is separation from Him. Otherwise known as: Hell.

...as opposed to the Bible's teachng that God sends the unregenerate to Hell as punishement for their sin.

And, for that matter, why would "seperation from God" be a bad thing for the unregenerate, anyway, when they're already at emnity with Him? In the words of Paul Washer, "Of course the unsaved want to go to Heaven! They just don't want God to be there when they get there!"

So I feel that, if you admit free will exists, you have to admit that Hell exists, because we have a choice to either accept or reject God.

Except that the Bible doesn't support the idea of free will.

 

[madetoworship]

...as opposed to the Bible's teachng that God sends the unregenerate to Hell as punishement for their sin.

And, for that matter, why would "seperation from God" be a bad thing for the unregenerate, anyway, when they're already at emnity with Him? In the words of Paul Washer, "Of course the unsaved want to go to Heaven! They just don't want God to be there when they get there!"

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

I believe Hell is a place of both eternal punishment and eternal spiritual/relational separation from God. These are two well cited biblical concepts of Hell.

An article about Hell being a place of spiritual separation from God: Against Heresies: Hell: Separation from God's presence?

Except that the Bible doesn't support the idea of free will.

This is yet again another highly debated topic in the Christian community: Calvinism vs. Arminianism. There are scripture cited for both.
Resource for more information on this: Comparison of Calvinism and Arminianism

I will just leave my comments as non-debate assertions. You can do whatever you want with them.

 

[Spunkn]

Except that the Bible doesn't support the idea of free will.

So Adam and Eve didn't have a choice, which means God is responsible for sin?

Just food for thought.

There is Scripture to support that God is in control of everything, yet we still have free will. That is why the debate will go over forever until we get to heaven. Because people aren't willing to accept both as true.

 

[The Fire Rises]

So Adam and Eve didn't have a choice, which means God is responsible for sin?

Just food for thought.

There is Scripture to support that God is in control of everything, yet we still have free will. That is why the debate will go over forever until we get to heaven. Because people aren't willing to accept both as true.

Interesting point, never would have thought of that.

Just because God knows what people are going to do before they do it doesn't mean that they had no say in the matter to start with.

There's a fork in the road. I can go left or right. God already knows that I'm going to choose to go left, but I don't know that yet. I still have a decision to make. My choice still matters, because in the end, it's my choice.

God is in control; nothing catches Him by surprise per se.

But just think how meaningless our relationship with Christ would be if we didn't actually make the choice to trust Him and love Him. I honestly don't see how you can look at the world around us and say there's no free will, unless you claim literally everything is controlled by God and we're all just puppets on a string. That would be a cruel and meaningless existence, almost like a sick joke.

We could debate this in circles for days on end though, and in the end we'll all likely stick to our own opinions. But, thank you for keeping this thread from getting too argumentative. We'll see if that lasts.

 

[ezeric]

JESUS took our punishment, do we agree?

Well if he took our punishment, and HE is just - do we still agree?
see Isaiah 53:4,5

Then it would be un-just to punish you for something HE already took the punishment for!

You can't get punished for a crime, and then get punished again for it - that would be unjust.

JESUS also didn't do half a job or isn't a complete saviour.
In Adam we all die, but in CHRIST we are all made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

We are all made alive in CHRIST - all means all, and you can follow this theme throughout scriptures. GOD was already in CHRIST reconciling the world unto HIMSELF. 2nd Cor 5:19

Why don't you guys believe the GOSPEL?
When you do, everything in your Christian walk will change, and you will start to hear HIS voice better, fears will dissolve and a new purpose and light will shine on you.

And the quotes from theologians, who cares about that - quote scriptures please.
The above quoted scripture of 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-10 is talking about
those that disobey will suffer the penalty of death (destruction) of the age.
Who doesn't agree, that in this life if you do harm to others, you will be harmed.

But to help ourselves, we have to study the term eternal in the scriptures as well, it has everything to do with time, but time in relation to what? If its time in relation to GOD then it is timeless, if its time relation to penalty then its this age (or your life).

You have to read 2nd Thessalonians with your 'hell' glasses on to read 'hell' into it. As it doesn't' ever mention hell...and if it did (which is does NOT) it would read Gehenna, the place (a real place) just outside Jerusalem, a real place they all knew about.

2nd Thessalonians talks about death and reaping the consequences of a life without GOD in this world (for this time) - but it doesn't stop the GRACE of GOD either or the finished work of JESUS who said "FATHER forgive them, they don't know what they are doing".

I'm not saying there isn't consequences in the life, if we do wrong, or hurt others.
That is what this scripture is saying.

But JESUS thoughts on the lost were; HE (JESUS) leaving the 99 and going after the lost one. As 99 isn't good enough, HE came to seek and save that which is lost. Matthew 18:12

Wonderful, All Powerful GRACE...

-eric

 

[ezeric]

So Adam and Eve didn't have a choice, which means God is responsible for sin?

Just food for thought.

There is Scripture to support that God is in control of everything, yet we still have free will. That is why the debate will go over forever until we get to heaven. Because people aren't willing to accept both as true.

Sure GOD knew they were going to sin, that is why HE had JESUS slain before the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

Just because a parent knows his children will choose wrong, doesn't stop the parent from loving the child and ultimately having their will done does it?

My sons have a free will, but ultimately my will (will) be done in our house.

GOD spoke to Paul and said "its hard to kick against the goads" Acts 9:5

You can do your own will, like the prodigal son, but ultimately you will return when you see the error of your ways. We are all on a search for truth, and we know that sin doesn't satisfy, only HE satisfies. Our way seems right, but the end is death but HE has the words of LIFE as HE is LIFE.

How long do you want to live in the pig sty and when do you want to come back as a son to GOD your DADDY?
You will, because who can resist HIS will? Romans 9:19

HIS good and perfect and pleasing will! Romans 12:1-2

-eric

 

[The Fire Rises]

...as opposed to the Bible's teachng that God sends the unregenerate to Hell as punishement for their sin.

And, for that matter, why would "seperation from God" be a bad thing for the unregenerate, anyway, when they're already at emnity with Him? In the words of Paul Washer, "Of course the unsaved want to go to Heaven! They just don't want God to be there when they get there!"



Except that the Bible doesn't support the idea of free will.

I think it helps to view Hell in the context of relationships. Christianity tells us that people, you and me, are the most valuable things in all of existence, we matter the most to God. "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." (Matthew 10)

So if people matter, then personal relationships must matter as well and Hell is largely relational. As you said, if we have no real desire for a relationship with God in this brief life, why would we want it for all of eternity?

Keeping that in mind, the question inevitably arises: "Is Hell a punishment for having broken God's standards or is it the natural consequence of people living a life in which they say, 'I don't care if I'm separate from God, I want to do things my way,' and then given their desire for all eternity by being separated from God forever?" I believe it's both.

We've all broken God's standards, at some point or another. "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:23) So we all do deserve Hell to at least some degree.

Now, God offers us the gift of salvation to each and every one of us. Are we obligated to take it? No. He doesn't force us to. A gift is something you offer to someone, not something you thrust upon them. Usually, people will accept the gift, they really have no reason not to. But no matter how beatiful and wonderful the gift is, that doesn't take away their right to refuse it. By refusing that gift their entire lives, God has no choice but to punish them for ther sins.


So make no mistake, Hell is punishment, but it's not a punishing, it's not a torture chamber. God is not actively involved in Hell, "turning up the heat" or deriving enjoyment from the suffering. "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." (Ezekiel 33:11) The punishment, as stated, is separation from God.

Now as you asked, is that really much of a punishment for people who never wanted Him in the first place? Perhaps not. In fact for some people, Heaven may be their version of Hell. But I believe that those in Hell will come to understand what they have missed out on, which is why it's a place of such utter heartbreak and regret, it's a separation from everything that matters, a separation from all hope and meaning, from everything that which is good, because everything that is good is from God.

Hell is the final sentence that says you refused to live for the purpose (part of which is, turning to God and turning from sin) for which you were made, and the only alternative is to sentence you away for all eternity. So it is punishment, but it's also the natural consequence of our own actions (whether we accepted or rejected Christ).

I realize that was kind of rambling but whatever, I'm getting tired and need rest for tommorow, busy days ahead.

Good night all

 

[Eric Hibbert]

I think it helps to view Hell in the context of relationships. Christianity tells us that people, you and me, are the most valuable things in all of existence, we matter the most to God. "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." (Matthew 10)

So if people matter, then personal relationships must matter as well and Hell is largely relational. As you said, if we have no real desire for a relationship with God in this brief life, why would we want it for all of eternity?

Keeping that in mind, the question inevitably arises: "Is Hell a punishment for having broken God's standards or is it the natural consequence of people living a life in which they say, 'I don't care if I'm separate from God, I want to do things my way,' and then given their desire for all eternity by being separated from God forever?" I believe it's both.

We've all broken God's standards, at some point or another. "...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:23) So we all do deserve Hell to at least some degree.

Now, God offers us the gift of salvation to each and every one of us. Are we obligated to take it? No. He doesn't force us to. A gift is something you offer to someone, not something you thrust upon them. Usually, people will accept the gift, they really have no reason not to. But no matter how beatiful and wonderful the gift is, that doesn't take away their right to refuse it. By refusing that gift their entire lives, God has no choice but to punish them for ther sins.


So make no mistake, Hell is punishment, but it's not a punishing, it's not a torture chamber. God is not actively involved in Hell, "turning up the heat" or deriving enjoyment from the suffering. "Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." (Ezekiel 33:11) The punishment, as stated, is separation from God.

Now as you asked, is that really much of a punishment for people who never wanted Him in the first place? Perhaps not. In fact for some people, Heaven may be their version of Hell. But I believe that those in Hell will come to understand what they have missed out on, which is why it's a place of such utter heartbreak and regret, it's a separation from everything that matters, a separation from all hope and meaning, from everything that which is good, because everything that is good is from God.

Hell is the final sentence that says you refused to live for the purpose (part of which is, turning to God and turning from sin) for which you were made, and the only alternative is to sentence you away for all eternity. So it is punishment, but it's also the natural consequence of our own actions (whether we accepted or rejected Christ).

I realize that was kind of rambling but whatever, I'm getting tired and need rest for tommorow, busy days ahead.

Good night all

I wrote a response to you several times but the laptop I'm using keeps switching pages and the responses keep getting lost. So rather than waste my time typing the same thing a fourth time, I'll just say thank you for your opinions but I think I'll stick with scripture and 2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy and leave it at that.

 

[The Fire Rises]

Well, if someone - anyone - would actually be willing to tell me how quoting scripture goes against the scriptures (?) and stating a personal opinion constitutes an attack on my entire church, that would be great.

Until then...

Have a happy Tuesday everyone : )

 

[Dorothea]

It is my belief that the hot, fire of "hell" is Christ's love. It feels like warmth, joy, and love to those who love Him, and it feels like fire and torment to those who reject Him because after all, once we leave this earth, there all around us is Christ and His Light. He is All in All. There is no place He is not.

 

[aiki]

JESUS took our punishment, do we agree?

I would be more inclined to say he atoned for our sin. God's punishment of the wicked in hell is not something Jesus suffered, so it wouldn't be entirely accurate to say Jesus "took our punishment."

Well if he took our punishment, and HE is just - do we still agree?
see Isaiah 53:4,5

This I will agree to: Jesus made atonement for our sin and he is just.

Then it would be un-just to punish you for something HE already took the punishment for!

You can't get punished for a crime, and then get punished again for it - that would be unjust.

Well, Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus' atoning sacrifice is available to all people but it is only efficaciously applied to a person upon that person's exercise of faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. For those who "neglect so great a salvation" there is only the wrath of God.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Clearly, the Bible tells us that the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross is not applied universally to all regardless of their condition of faith toward the Saviour. If one does not have the Son, one does not have life. And if one does not have the life of the Son, all that remains is the wrath of God.

JESUS also didn't do half a job or isn't a complete saviour.
In Adam we all die, but in CHRIST we are all made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Who is the "we" Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:22? Is it everybody? No, I don't think so. Paul was explaining the vital importance of the resurrection of Christ to the faith of Christian believers. Some had been saying that Christ was not raised from the dead and Paul was determined to set them straight on this matter.

1 Corinthians 15:16-22
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

We are all made alive in CHRIST - all means all,

I'm afraid this isn't so. Other passages of Scripture (like the one from the Gospel of John above) prevent you from making a universal application of this sort.

and you can follow this theme throughout scriptures. GOD was already in CHRIST reconciling the world unto HIMSELF. 2nd Cor 5:19

But the world isn't going to be reconciled to God. Other verses in Scripture make it clear that "many are called but few are chosen." (Matt. 22:14)

Matthew 20:16
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 13:22-24
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Why don't you guys believe the GOSPEL?
When you do, everything in your Christian walk will change, and you will start to hear HIS voice better, fears will dissolve and a new purpose and light will shine on you.

As I have shown you from Scripture, you are the one who is not preaching the Gospel. Your declaration that once we adopt your view we will have a new and improved spiritual walk with God is therefore false. One cannot walk deeper with God when one has blinded oneself to the truth of His Word.

And the quotes from theologians, who cares about that - quote scriptures please.

Many of those theologians know the Scriptures far better than you or I. It seems to me that only pride and/or ignorance would prompt an out-of-hand dismissal of their knowledge and understanding of God's Word.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The above quoted scripture of 2nd Thessalonians 1:8-10 is talking about
those that disobey will suffer the penalty of death (destruction) of the age.
Who doesn't agree, that in this life if you do harm to others, you will be harmed.

No, the passage above does not say that the penalty of death is the "death of the age" and that this is what is meant by "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power." What you propose must be read into the passage, not drawn out of it. A straightforward reading makes it clear that the "everlasting destruction" spoken of is the flaming fire of God's vengeance upon those who do not know Him and have neglected the Gospel. (vs. 8)

But to help ourselves, we have to study the term eternal in the scriptures as well, it has everything to do with time, but time in relation to what? If its time in relation to GOD then it is timeless, if its time relation to penalty then its this age (or your life).

This isn't evident in the least in the passage from 2 Thessalonians. And if I look elsewhere in Scripture, say, Matthew 25:46, I find that your ideas about "everlasting destruction" fall further into ruin.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Consider the thoughts of Professor Alan Gomes:

"What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios" is used to describe both the length of punishment for the wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked without at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked." (pg. 333 - "Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses," Ron Rhodes.)

In light of these considerations, it doesn't seem a viable point of view to hold that "everlasting destruction" in the passage from 2 Thessalonians 1 is a limited harm that a wicked person endures.

Anywhoo...I appreciate that you want to cast God in as lovely a light as possible and you think doing so requires abandoning or "re-working" the harder teachings of Scripture concerning God's wrath and judgment. Unfortunately, your "re-working" has led you into the heresy of universalism, which Scripture plainly contradicts. This is the sort of deviation from truth that occurs when you are not part of a larger, local community of believers who can check and test your thinking and beliefs. Perhaps it is time you plugged-in to the Body of Believers again.


Selah.

 

[ezeric]

I wrote a response to you several times but the laptop I'm using keeps switching pages and the responses keep getting lost. So rather than waste my time typing the same thing a fourth time, I'll just say thank you for your opinions but I think I'll stick with scripture and 2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy and that your pastor and elders should be ashamed of themselves and leave it at that.

I know you are responding to Fire but it is NOT 2000 years of Christian orthodoxy, it came MUCH later....
And hell isnt orthodoxy either.
Its all in history if you want it.

-eric

 

[ezeric]

I would be more inclined to say he atoned for our sin. God's punishment of the wicked in hell is not something Jesus suffered, so it wouldn't be entirely accurate to say Jesus "took our punishment."

This I will agree to: Jesus made atonement for our sin and he is just.

Well, Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus' atoning sacrifice is available to all people but it is only efficaciously applied to a person upon that person's exercise of faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. For those who "neglect so great a salvation" there is only the wrath of God.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 2:5-11
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Clearly, the Bible tells us that the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross is not applied universally to all regardless of their condition of faith toward the Saviour. If one does not have the Son, one does not have life. And if one does not have the life of the Son, all that remains is the wrath of God.

Who is the "we" Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:22? Is it everybody? No, I don't think so. Paul was explaining the vital importance of the resurrection of Christ to the faith of Christian believers. Some had been saying that Christ was not raised from the dead and Paul was determined to set them straight on this matter.

1 Corinthians 15:16-22
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

I'm afraid this isn't so. Other passages of Scripture (like the one from the Gospel of John above) prevent you from making a universal application of this sort.

But the world isn't going to be reconciled to God. Other verses in Scripture make it clear that "many are called but few are chosen." (Matt. 22:14)

Matthew 20:16
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 13:22-24
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

As I have shown you from Scripture, you are the one who is not preaching the Gospel. Your declaration that once we adopt your view we will have a new and improved spiritual walk with God is therefore false. One cannot walk deeper with God when one has blinded oneself to the truth of His Word.

Many of those theologians know the Scriptures far better than you or I. It seems to me that only pride and/or ignorance would prompt an out-of-hand dismissal of their knowledge and understanding of God's Word.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

No, the passage above does not say that the penalty of death is the "death of the age" and that this is what is meant by "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power." What you propose must be read into the passage, not drawn out of it. A straightforward reading makes it clear that the "everlasting destruction" spoken of is the flaming fire of God's vengeance upon those who do not know Him and have neglected the Gospel. (vs. 8)

This isn't evident in the least in the passage from 2 Thessalonians. And if I look elsewhere in Scripture, say, Matthew 25:46, I find that your ideas about "everlasting destruction" fall further into ruin.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Consider the thoughts of Professor Alan Gomes:

"What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios" is used to describe both the length of punishment for the wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked without at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked." (pg. 333 - "Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses," Ron Rhodes.)

In light of these considerations, it doesn't seem a viable point of view to hold that "everlasting destruction" in the passage from 2 Thessalonians 1 is a limited harm that a wicked person endures.

Anywhoo...I appreciate that you want to cast God in as lovely a light as possible and you think doing so requires abandoning or "re-working" the harder teachings of Scripture concerning God's wrath and judgment. Unfortunately, your "re-working" has led you into the heresy of universalism, which Scripture plainly contradicts. This is the sort of deviation from truth that occurs when you are not part of a larger, local community of believers who can check and test your thinking and beliefs. Perhaps it is time you plugged-in to the Body of Believers again.


Selah.

I know this is deep for some of you.
You really want hell I guess, and don't have a level of faith to believe GOD is BIG enough to really save the world - that HE loves so much!
(John 3:16).

People don't get set free teaching fear, but complete (perfect) love drives out all fear...and hell teaching only brings fear.

Sure there is curse and wrath and trouble in this life, JESUS who was full of GRACE and TRUTH (if you want GRACE and TRUTH you need to look to HIM) but HE even said "in this world you will have trouble..."

BUT be of good cheer, I have overcome the world"

HE overcame everything, all that Adam lost HE fixed.
If HE didn't, HE isnt the Saviour of the world, and not the last Adam because we need another Saviour who can really do the job right this time!

Aiki, my fellow Canuck, I wont even comment on your idea of debating "punishment" a word Isaiah uses and replacing it with "atonement",and trying to make a point without agreeing, semantics is all it is.

You are sadly like many that take your leading from 'rules taught by men' and deny the LORD of the awesome amazing GRACE that HE freely gives.
I guess its not so Amazing GRACE after all, that if I don't listen to this dictator god (GOD?) of yours, then I'm thrown into a medieval concept of hell, that the early church new nothing of the sort...no wonder the lost aren't finding HIM, they just get condemnation - something JESUS said HE didn't bring!

"The Son of Man, didn't come to condemn the world, but save it" John 3:17

But many of you have closed minds, and I get it, I used to be like that.
Until I wondered what was so Amazing about GRACE?

And that the church, prayers, holy days, buildings, rules and rituals were really not much different than all the worlds religions - just change the names..as they all have their buildings, prayers, special books etc..

But they DONT have a living loving JESUS on the inside, that over flows with the fruit of the SPIRIT (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faith, goodness, mercy and self control) Galatians 5:22

Hint: if you want a 'key' to hearing HIS voice better - just listen, if what you are hearing matches the 'fruit of the SPIRIT' (listed above).

But sure, without JESUS we don't have life,
Instead, are under wrath as the law beats us up, becoming objects of wrath as Paul says.

For destruction...Ah, there is the word - see you knew you would get me to agree that meant 'hell'...but NO again, destruction in the bible is apóleia and it means "loss of well being, or what its designed for". Its the same word when the woman poured expensive perfume on JESUS feet and Judas said it was 'wasted'. Mark 14:4 meaning 'the perfume is not being used right or for the purpose it was designed for'.

and although some like to take a shot at any of my past teaching, I don't really care, but that 'hell' teaching made the lost run, the saved fearful and got a lot of leaders angry and hostile, judging everyone.

And

That isn't Good News!


-eric

 

[ezeric]

Speaking of Romans 2

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself,

Note: GOD isn't condemning you (HE said HE didn't come for that) but we condemn ourselves!

This is the first verse.

We don't teach condemnation but reconciliation that is our ministry!

that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

And don't you know that it is GOD'S Kindness (fruit of the SPIRIT) that leads us to repentance!

Wow
Romans 2 and we haven't even gotten out of the first 4 verses!

Its not HIS wrath, or anger but HIS Kindness!

Any judging in the verse is when us 'mere humans' pass judgement on others making us open to GODS judgment (see verse 3 and also what happens to us when we judge in verses 5 to 11).

Didn't JESUS say "judge not lest you be judged" Matthew 7:1

And when any of you teach/preach 'hell' to others, you are judging and that opens you up to the wrath (the trouble in this life) of verses 5 to 11 of Romans 2.

Its not that complicated folks.

-eric

 

[aiki]

I know this is deep for some of you.

No, not so much deep as simply erroneous.

You really want hell I guess, and don't have a level of faith to believe GOD is BIG enough to really save the world - that HE loves so much!

No, I don't want Hell, I want to maintain high fidelity to the truth of God's Word. And that truth includes the place of eternal torment known as Hell.

I would believe God will save the world if that was what the Scriptures said. But they don't.

People don't get set free teaching fear, but complete (perfect) love drives out all fear...and hell teaching only brings fear.

Which is why the doctrine of Hell isn't the only thing the Bible teaches.

HE overcame everything, all that Adam lost HE fixed.

Oh? We still die, you know. I guess Jesus just missed this nasty part of the curse of the Fall...(NOT!)

If HE didn't, HE isnt the Saviour of the world, and not the last Adam because we need another Saviour who can really do the job right this time!

Or maybe you need to understand better what Christ actually accomplished through his death on the cross.

Aiki, my fellow Canuck, I wont even comment on your idea of debating "punishment" a word Isaiah uses and replacing it with "atonement",and trying to make a point without agreeing, semantics is all it is.

Well, this is one way of answering my point - or, actually, not answering it.

You are sadly like many that take your leading from 'rules taught by men' and deny the LORD of the awesome amazing GRACE that HE freely gives.

Let's see...how many verses and/or passages did I post in my last response to you? At least seven, I think. Are these the "rules taught by men" to which you're referring?

I guess its not so Amazing GRACE after all, that if I don't listen to this dictator god (GOD?) of yours, then I'm thrown into a medieval concept of hell, that the early church new nothing of the sort...no wonder the lost aren't finding HIM, they just get condemnation - something JESUS said HE didn't bring!

*Sigh* You can lead a horse to water...

Selah.

 

[ezeric]

Allow me to shed some light, to help some of the harder passages of what JESUS taught.

I will for simplicity use the gospel scriptures my esteemed brother Aiki has chosen:

Matthew 20:16
16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Luke 13:22-24
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

There are many other verses that JESUS spoke, that really make it hard to believe.
The last will be first and the first last, for many are called, but few chosen.

Enter the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction.

There are 2 points, and they are key to understanding all this:
1) JESUS does everything in LOVE, HE only speaks LOVE and does LOVING things. Meaning they are only for your good, not HIS (which would be selfish).
2) HE makes it hard for people to be saved, actually impossible.

Did you get that?

HE makes it hard for people to be saved.

These scriptures and tons more, make it hard to be saved as HE is always pushing people away from their own righteousness.

You see, no one qualifies.
No one is good enough. Romans 3:10

So when Nicodemus comes to HIM, HE tells him that "You are Israel's teacher but you don't understand these things..you must be born again!"
Nicodemus doesn't understand how a grown man, of his religious calibre has to be born somehow again from his mother - he doesn't qualify. John 3

When the two were praying in the temple, only one went home justified and it wasn't the one the people thought it would be - rather it was the broken tax collector! Luke 18:13

The rich young ruler, JESUS lets him walk away - why? Because he doesn't qualify.
And the scriptures posted above - point to the fact that we aren't good enough and we don't qualify. (see Matthew 19:16 and following)

I leave the best one Aiki quoted for last:
"LORD are there only a few who are saved?" Luke 13:23

The disciples at another time say something similar "Who can be saved then?" Luke 18:26

JESUS finally gives some light "what is impossible with man is possible with GOD".
Luke 18:27

Paul sheds way more light on it by saying this:
"For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone"
Romans 11:32

You see, JESUS saves them all, but they have to get to the point that they are useless and lost without him - since all have sinned...So HE makes it hard, and to the disciples understanding "impossible" to be saved.

No one is justified following the law. Galatians 3:11

Because no one is righteous no not one. Romans 3:10

So, GOD locks or bounds them all under disobedience so that by HIS one act of obedience HE can have mercy on all of us. Romans 11:32

That is why JESUS seemingly pushes people away, so they don't rest on their own moral code or effort, when they do that pride brings a fall. Proverbs 16:18

So HE can save them all!

-eric

 

[aiki]

THe verses I posted where Jesus says that "many are called but few are chosen" speak, not to qualification, but specifically to number. Jesus didn't say, "No one qualifies and therefore no one can be saved." No, he is simply pointing out that relatively few people will actually be saved. This is the most straightforward reading of Jesus' words and as such the most appropriate reading of them. All the stuff you're proposing about what Jesus really meant you must read into his words. You'll never get to the truth by trying to force your own views into passages that actually refute them.

You see, JESUS saves them all, but they have to get to the point that they are useless and lost without him - since all have sinned...So HE makes it hard, and to the disciples understanding "impossible" to be saved.

Sorry, but this just doesn't wash. All of this you are imposing on the verses I cited that contradict universalism. No one reading Jesus' declaration that "many are called but few are chosen" would ever draw the conclusions that you have from them. How do you make "few are chosen" into "everyone is saved"? The two statements are in obvious contradiction to one another. And you haven't explained how they are to be reconciled.

You know, I thought preaching the heresy of universalism on this forum was forbidden.

Selah.