Is Hell just?

[Samanthae]

So I have been pondering this one for awhile. Everyone says how God is a just God.

How can a just God send a good person who doesn't believe to hell to suffer for eternity? A finite crime leads to infinite punishment and suffering? Is that really just?

Friend-

We all do deserve hell. The bible says, "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standards" (Romans 3). God's standards are what we are to measure ourselves to. Not other human beings, but God.

What are God's laws? The 10 commandments, right? Look at them. Can you honestly say that you've kept His laws? If God was a judge in a court room here on earth, and you had broken 10 laws, would it be JUST for Him to say, "Well, even though you took my name in vain, dishonered your parents, lusted in your heart, made idols out of money and worldly possessions, stolen, etc. etc. I'm going to forgive you." Would JUSTICE be served?

Of course not!

Justice is not based on how we measure up with other human beings. It's how we measure up with God's standards.

And none of us do measure up.

Once you see you are a sinner, you'll understand Christ, what it meant for Him to take your place....why through HIS sacrifice, justice was served.

Until you see that you've sinned against a holy, righteous God, you'll remain blind. God's wrath is on all those who do not seek His Son. It is ONLY by His Son that we can be made right. And when we die, if we've put our trust is Christ, if we have repented of our sins, then when we will be in heaven...not because we are "good" people, but because we are sinners that have been forgiven.

May God get the glory, forever and always-

God Bless

 

[intricatic]

that would be pretty unbearable as well to be honest.....I think what a lot of Christians do who believe this eternal damnation stuff fail to realise is that there's such a degree of suffering in this life as it is.........and i honestly dont think that many have seen first hand a person or an animal suffering to an extreme degree, neither have I to be honest although i once saw a dog in its death throes after being hit by a car, mercifully it was brief, to think that God would torture his beings mercilessly in any shape or form for an eternity is just hideous, only men in their warped imaginations have conceived this doctrine......it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that hell is an eternal place of torture but take a few verses, add a bit of spin to them and hey presto....! The ultimate torture chamber suddenly exists..........never mind the inconsistency of the views expressed by people who support this vile dogma where u cant normally get two people to agree on just exactly what 'hell' is........


Fortunately I just remind myself that God is above dogma and doctrine, he's the ultimate loving father whose ways are beyond our understanding, despite the doctrines of men who seem to claim otherwise.........

It is vile to think God would actively impose such a thing on His creations. However, the fact that He gave us this gift of free-will would insist that one may have the freedom to reject their own creator essentially, and eternally.

When it comes to living this life, the choices we make are what define what we become. As such, the choices we make here, are what define what existance is for us in the next life.

 

[karisma]

We all do deserve hell. The bible says, "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standards" (Romans 3). God's standards are what we are to measure ourselves to. Not other human beings, but God.

What are God's laws? The 10 commandments, right? Look at them. Can you honestly say that you've kept His laws? If God was a judge in a court room here on earth, and you had broken 10 laws, would it be JUST for Him to say, "Well, even though you took my name in vain, dishonered your parents, lusted in your heart, made idols out of money and worldly possessions, stolen, etc. etc. I'm going to forgive you." Would JUSTICE be served?

Of course not!

I still disagree. We aren't God. We aren't perfect beings. And it isn't just to give commandments that we are not capable of following, and then punishing us for not being able to.

 

[intricatic]

I still disagree. We aren't God. We aren't perfect beings. And it isn't just to give commandments that we are not capable of following, and then punishing us for not being able to.

Is it just to give the gift of freedom, allow us to abuse it to absurd levels, and then force us into a mold that we've clearly rejected throughout our entire lives?

 

[bunnysfriend]

Friend-

We all do deserve hell. The bible says, "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standards" (Romans 3). God's standards are what we are to measure ourselves to. Not other human beings, but God.

What are God's laws? The 10 commandments, right? Look at them. Can you honestly say that you've kept His laws? If God was a judge in a court room here on earth, and you had broken 10 laws, would it be JUST for Him to say, "Well, even though you took my name in vain, dishonered your parents, lusted in your heart, made idols out of money and worldly possessions, stolen, etc. etc. I'm going to forgive you." Would JUSTICE be served?

Of course not!

Justice is not based on how we measure up with other human beings. It's how we measure up with God's standards.

And none of us do measure up.

Once you see you are a sinner, you'll understand Christ, what it meant for Him to take your place....why through HIS sacrifice, justice was served.

Until you see that you've sinned against a holy, righteous God, you'll remain blind. God's wrath is on all those who do not seek His Son. It is ONLY by His Son that we can be made right. And when we die, if we've put our trust is Christ, if we have repented of our sins, then when we will be in heaven...not because we are "good" people, but because we are sinners that have been forgiven.

May God get the glory, forever and always-

God Bless

how do you get that we all deserve to be eternaly tortured in hell from this "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standards" ?
to me it just says we have all sinned, not that we deserve to be tortured in some firey pit for all eternity...
"God's standards are what we are to measure ourselves to. Not other human beings, but God." so because we arent as good as God we deserve hell?? a perfect being makes imperfect creations, then judges them for being imperfect and allows them to go have an eternity of suffering??
do you honestly think that you, me, your loved ones, children deserve the most unbeareble amount of suffering, torture, and tourment, physicaly and spiritually, for ever and ever, with no ease? just picture it happening to people you care about for one minute. picture it in your mind, people you love being burned, eaten by worms, crying out in agony and think, yes, they deserve that....

 

[intricatic]

Quick question:

Why does everyone by default presume that Hell is eternal punishment? Is it because that's the popular stereotype, or because there is some deep-seated subconscious compulsion towards that idea? Or a combination of the two, maybe?

In my entire life, I have never looked at Hell as such a thing, but only because a God who professes to love each and every being on this planet would not match up to such a centralized and judgemental concept. However, a situation where an individual makes a move away from God's grace by choice and selection, and ends up in a permanent realization of that choice, would match up to that reality.

 

[Mrs12bfishin]

I still disagree. We aren't God. We aren't perfect beings. And it isn't just to give commandments that we are not capable of following, and then punishing us for not being able to.

It seems you have a legalistic view of Christianity. God doesn't ask us to be perfect. He knows that we are all sinners and we will continue to sin as long as we live on this Earth.

Romans makes it clear that no one is without excuse. God has made his existence known through his creation. When the Bible says "all have fallen short of the glory of God" that means no one is good enough to make it to heaven on their own, which is why he sent his son Jesus. Jesus was perfect and sinless in every way and he died on the cross for our sins so that those who believe would go to heaven. Jesus paid the price for our sins all we have to do is accept him.

When a person accepts that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died on the cross for their sins and believes that he arose from the dead than that person is considered "born again" or saved.

A christian is not free from sin. However, there is a change that is supposed to happen inwardly from the work of the Holy Spirit. When we (Christians) sin, we are usually convicted and then we ask for forgiveness, and then we strive not to do that again. The longer you walk with the Lord, the stronger you become in your faith, and the more you will desire to do God's will.

 

[intricatic]

It seems you have a legalistic view of Christianity. God doesn't ask us to be perfect. He knows that we are all sinners and we will continue to sin as long as we live on this Earth.

Romans makes it clear that no one is without excuse. God has made his existence known through his creation. When the Bible says "all have fallen short of the glory of God" that means no one is good enough to make it to heaven on their own, which is why he sent his son Jesus. Jesus was perfect and sinless in every way and he died on the cross for our sins so that those who believe would go to heaven. Jesus paid the price for our sins all we have to do is accept him.

When a person accepts that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died on the cross for their sins and believes that he arose from the dead than that person is considered "born again" or saved.

A christian is not free from sin. However, there is a change that is supposed to happen inwardly from the work of the Holy Spirit. When we (Christians) sin, we are usually convicted and then we ask for forgiveness, and then we strive not to do that again. The longer you walk with the Lord, the stronger you become in your faith, and the more you will desire to do God's will.

Yup, hit the nail on the proverbial head. I was just discussing legalism on another thread, too. I personally love Galatians for the insight into this topic.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Christianity is all about grace and the purity of Christ's sacrifice on the cross - the reason He died wasn't so that we could continue to bicker and throw stones at one another, but so that we could be free from having to strictly follow a set of rules and laws absolutely in order to achieve salvation. Those laws are an excellent moral guideline, but no longer absolute in their dominion over the eternal prospects of our souls. It's a gift, and a free one given by the Grace of our Almighty Father, and the sacrifice His Son made in the flesh. He dies in vain each time a person rejects it because they consider it too harsh or unjust.

 

[Nightfire]

I also just want to throw a rock in the bush. The argument about whether eternal hell is "just" is very emotional, but how is the alternative any better? Is being dead for eternity any more "just"? Because we who are alive can deal with it better?

To make an analogy closer to everyday experience, isn't it a bit like saying the death penalty is better (more morally acceptable) than letting someone who refuses to be rehabilitated die in prison? Yet it's usually the same people who argue against being conscious in hell who oppose the death penalty on earth. Is it consistent?

If the lake of fire is already the second (spiritual) death, what kind of "death" would the third one (usually referred to as annihilation) be? I'm just asking, because I think we tend to extend metaphors (like hell) too far, and then end up not liking what we imagine.

Personally, if the God of Justice, who defends the cause of the innocent and oppressed, considers what Jesus described as "hell" to be just, that's enough for me. Whatever there is to know about about mercy, I'm sure I can't do better than God. How can I presume to sit judgement on his law, saying what punishment is fair and what isn't? It seems to me that the Bible's is not very concerned whether hell will be bearable (and even less about making it bearable to imagine), but instead declares that to be separated from God in any way will be intolerable - and should be intolerable to us, not to scare us into submission, but to warn us against against underestimating the reality of the alternative. Maybe Adam and Eve also minimized the reality of the first death before they reached out for the forbidden fruit.

 

[red77]

Quick question:

Why does everyone by default presume that Hell is eternal punishment? Is it because that's the popular stereotype, or because there is some deep-seated subconscious compulsion towards that idea? Or a combination of the two, maybe?

In my entire life, I have never looked at Hell as such a thing, but only because a God who professes to love each and every being on this planet would not match up to such a centralized and judgemental concept. However, a situation where an individual makes a move away from God's grace by choice and selection, and ends up in a permanent realization of that choice, would match up to that reality.

Basically the traditional or orthodox church claim that the 'truth' of hell is just that 'eternal punishment'.......there's several 'truths' on the issue....some think that its a fiery pit, some think that its pyschological torment of being seperated from God and all things good like love/peace.....some think its a mixture of physical and psychological agony, the point is that the mainstream traditional church thinks hell is a place of torture even if it ant make its mind up exactly on what it is.........


The thing is with your post though, and i accept that you dont see hell as any of the above - is that that person in time would realize their mistake and would end up wanting the forgiveness and reconciliation offered, it would only be God who would shun that person for ever and not the person him/herself........and that still makes no sense............God could stop all pain if he wanted but would deem it necessary for a soul to suffer pointlessly and with no reason......? There isnt actually any 'justice' in that and as a consequence 'hell' would also become unjust.......

 

[intricatic]

Basically the traditional or orthodox church claim that the 'truth' of hell is just that 'eternal punishment'.......there's several 'truths' on the issue....some think that its a fiery pit, some think that its pyschological torment of being seperated from God and all things good like love/peace.....some think its a mixture of physical and psychological agony, the point is that the mainstream traditional church thinks hell is a place of torture even if it ant make its mind up exactly on what it is.........


The thing is with your post though, and i accept that you dont see hell as any of the above - is that that person in time would realize their mistake and would end up wanting the forgiveness and reconciliation offered, it would only be God who would shun that person for ever and not the person him/herself........and that still makes no sense............God could stop all pain if he wanted but would deem it necessary for a soul to suffer pointlessly and with no reason......? There isnt actually any 'justice' in that and as a consequence 'hell' would also become unjust.......

Only if you consider eternal existance as a potentially temporal state. IMHO, time doesn't operate in eternity the same way it does in this world, and neither would our ability to concieve of the fact that we're in Hell. It would be just as easy to decide that God doesn't exist there as it is in this world.

But I suggest reading C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce". His views on this subject, strangely, are very close to mine. Very good book, also, well writen and quite interesting.

Also, from what I've heard, and gotten from talking to members of the Orthodox Church, they have a very different view of Hell than the common stereotype.

 

[heron]

Biblical description:

Where there will be weeping (lamenting, crying in regret) and gnashing of teeth (tension--darn, I could have/should have)

No worms.
Mt 8:12
Mt 13:42
Mt 13:50
Mt 22:13
Mt 24:51
Mt 25:30
Lu 13:28


.

 

[bunnysfriend]

Biblical description:

Where there will be weeping (lamenting, crying in regret) and gnashing of teeth (tension--darn, I could have/should have)

No worms.
Mt 8:12
Mt 13:42
Mt 13:50
Mt 22:13
Mt 24:51
Mt 25:30
Lu 13:28


.

some say there will be fire and worms, "their worm does not die". some take that very literally, and use it when they threaten people with hell.

 

[Nightfire]

The worms are from Isaiah 66 and a rather strange reference in Mark 9:

Is. 66:23-24
From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Mark 9:43-50
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Everyone will be salted with fire. "Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other."
​

What does "Everyone will be salted with fire" mean, do you think? Does it relate to our words and actions, as in Matt. 5:13, 1 Cor. 3:12-15 and Col. 4:6? Maybe that is a discussion for another thread, though.

 

[heron]

pav gar puri alisqhsetai. (5701)​

I just looked up the translation, and there's a commentary for the word "everyone"--that it's usually is used to mean any kind of individual.

Strong's Number: 3956pa=v

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] individually [/FONT]
   1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything [/FONT]
2. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] collectively [/FONT]
   1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] some of all types[/FONT]

 

[heron]

The transition from fire to salt is odd...fire bad, salt good...salted with fire confusing.

 

[Samanthae]

The Bible does say hell is eternal but if you research this and go back to the original lanuages, Hebrew and Greek, the word from which we translated "eternal" doesn't always literally mean never ending but permanent. As in people won't forever be suffering but once they are burned in hell and there is nothing left to be burnt that is it. The end. They will never again live or anything, thus it is eternal in a sense because they cease to exist for eternity.

Hello-

I was just wondering....if "hell" is not "eternal" as you say....then those who are going to heaven...will they have "eternal" life? Or....

Sort of confused

 

[If Not For Grace]

God send a good person who doesn't believe

What is "good"?

As I understand it, its not about being good or bad.., it is about believing. All have "sinned" and come short..
Ever Lied?, Ever been jealous? Ever Lusted? or even stolen--(anything)?

The Blood is what covers "Sin".

For me the ? of Christianity hinged on the resurrection, did Jesus rise from the grave? If so, the rest seemed pretty easy to swallow. I came to the conclusion He did, what do you think?

 

[karisma]

^ That's exactly where I'm at. I used to believe-it was taught to me at a young age. Similar to brain washing.

The longer I am in college, the more I begin to disbelieve. Not that I don't necessarily believe in God, but I have doubts about Christianity. In reality, what have we? A book? Full of male chauvinism, misogyny, and inconsistencies? And we are expected to believe this without real proof? Would you believe me if I said I had an invisible purple flying monkey in my apartment? Why should you, without proof?

 

[Nightfire]

^ That's exactly where I'm at. I used to believe-it was taught to me at a young age. Similar to brain washing.

The longer I am in college, the more I begin to disbelieve. Not that I don't necessarily believe in God, but I have doubts about Christianity. In reality, what have we? A book? Full of male chauvinism, misogyny, and inconsistencies? And we are expected to believe this without real proof? Would you believe me if I said I had an invisible purple flying monkey in my apartment? Why should you, without proof?

Should you distinguish between what you've been taught as a child and what you're being taught as an adult? What if the order teaching was reversed - would you be able to make the same complaint? If someone wants to brainwash you, it can occur at any age!

Besides phenomological differences, which I won't go into now, there is an obvious difference between making something up and believing the proof that you have been given. Remember that what happened to the first disciples was proof - they believed it, wrote it down, passed it on. And 2000 years later you call it brainswashing. If you were given the same proof today, what would it be called in another 2000 years? This isn't just about you or me living now, unfortunately, but the entire human race and all of creation since the beginning till the end.

The "male chauvenism" you detect is probably because the time that these events occurred in was characterized by the Middle-Eastern patriarchal system. Once again, I would ask: if the roles were reversed and it was matrimonial system, would it be reasonable for me not to believe it because I'm male?

And no, you are not "required"to believe it. It's your choice, and the message of the Bible and the existence of these forums can help you make an informed choice. College is like an anvil that sharpens your mind and thoughts, but it only sharpens what you give it. If you let "years in college" decide for you, that would be brainwashing. Many of the foremost rational thinkers and apologists of Christianity only made up their minds during or after college. I'm thinking in particular of CS Lewis and Lee Strobel. Christianity can stand up against critical thought, and the things that are hard to understand only require more thought. It's a logical system with rational beginnings. But it's also a matter of faith, and faith requires that you don't just examine books and lectures, but your heart, mind and soul.