Is Hell just?

[Nightfire]

The transition from fire to salt is odd...fire bad, salt good...salted with fire confusing.

It doesn't seem to me that individuals (i.e. "the latter") are referred to here, because the transition from hellfire to faithful salt includes the whole spectrum... Maybe the thought here is that everyone will pass through judgment (of which fire is a frequent image, cf. "God is a consuming fire."), some will lose their salt (permanently, and "It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "- Luk. 14:35), but those who are instead refined by the fire (1 Peter 1:7) retain their salt in this life, and will reap its reward (1 Cor. 3:14). Apparently, all offerings to God had to be salted first (Lev. 2:13).

Could Christ's words in Luke 12:49 be relevant? "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" It would be interesting, especially since all images of hell refer to terrible places here on earth (Valley of Hinnom, prison, darkness, fire) - examples of separation and death - that maybe "hell" is in a sense an extention of such experiences, simply by the absence of God's intervention, with "no sacrifice left", and therefore no hope. It might not - in a parallel sense - be any worse than what life already exhibits as suffering, hopelessness and despair - but without Christ, it can certainly be no better.

I apologize for thinking all of this out loud . I hope it contributes to this thread in some way.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So I have been pondering this one for awhile. Everyone says how God is a just God.

How can a just God send a good person who doesn't believe to hell to suffer for eternity? A finite crime leads to infinite punishment and suffering? Is that really just?

Everyone sins and those sins have a consequence. Your 'good' works don't save or cleanse you. Only God can. All have the option to recieve salvation and escape this fate. If you don't take that, then it's all on you and you'll face the consequences for your willful rebellion. God is just and will bring every action into judgement. Unrepented sin won't go unpunished.

 

[heron]

Nightfire, thanks for thinking out loud--I can always count on you to blend logic and faith well. Yes, the refined by fire on earth--that makes sense. You can see how long I've been away from teachings about refining and suffering!

If someone wants to brainwash you, it can occur at any age!

I used to think of brainwashing as an all-or-nothing situation, something I could never fall into unless coerced...but I realized over time that I am continually brainwashing myself. What I allow in begins to mesh with what I already know, and eventually I change my mind. The brain fits information in...makes the neural connections.

When you're in school, you really don't have much time to dig into deep truths. If there's an archaeology course on campus, that might help keep the discerning process going.

.

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

Why is Hell eternal? Our sins have eternal consequences.

 

[red77]

Everyone sins and those sins have a consequence. Your 'good' works don't save or cleanse you. Only God can. All have the option to recieve salvation and escape this fate. If you don't take that, then it's all on you and you'll face the consequences for your willful rebellion. God is just and will bring every action into judgement. Unrepented sin won't go unpunished.

Sin normally has a consequence in the here and now........and God is just........and also merciful so I dont worry about him sentencing helpless creatures to an eternal state of perpetual misery whatever that is envisaged by those who ascribe to it......
punishment is meted out for a reason....usually to instruct or correct and in some cases protect........if it doesnt fall into those categories then it ceases to become punishment but vengeance..........
and torture for any reason is wrong in my book, its wrong for humans to inflict it on each other, I dont believe that God would inflict it either.........

 

[heron]

I was just wondering....if "hell" is not "eternal" as you say....then those who are going to heaven...will they have "eternal" life? Or....

Almost every place that the lake of fire is referred to, eternal life is mentioned as the alternative. I think that's where the assumption began, that Hell is eternal too. The promises for eternal life are very clear, where the ones for hell are vaguer.

http://studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=eternal&section=0&translation=nas&oq=&sr=1

 

[eoe]

I am sorry that I missed this for so long. Here is an Orthodox View of Hell:




The idea that God is an angry figure who sends those He condemns to a place called Hell, where they spend eternity in torment separated from His presence, is missing from the Bible and unknown in the early church. While Heaven and Hell are decidedly real, they are experiential conditions rather than physical places, and both exist in the presence of God. In fact, nothing exists outside the presence of God.​

This is not the way traditional Western Christianity, Roman Catholic or Protestant, has envisioned the afterlife. In Western thought Hell is a location, a place where God punishes the wicked, where they are cut off from God and the Kingdom of Heaven. Yet this concept occurs nowhere in the Bible, and does not exist in the original languages of the Bible.

While there is no question that according to the scriptures there is torment and "gnashing of teeth" for the wicked, and glorification for the righteous, and that this judgment comes from God, these destinies are not separate destinations. The Bible indicates that everyone comes before God in the next life, and it is because of being in God's presence that they either suffer eternally, or experience eternal joy. In other words, both the joy of heaven, and the torment of judgment, is caused by being eternally in the presence of the Almighty, the perfect and unchanging God.

This is not a new interpretation or a secret truth. It has been there all along, held by the Church from the beginning, revealed in the languages of the Scriptures, which were spoken by the Christians of the early church era. This understanding was held by nearly all Christians everywhere for the first 1000 years of the Church's existence, and, except where influence by western theologies, continued to be held by Christians beyond Western Europe and America even up to this day (including the roughly 350 million Orthodox Christians worldwide).

When you examine in context the source words which are translated as "hell" in English language Bibles the original understanding becomes clear. You will find that "hell" is translated from four different Greek and Hebrew words. These words are not interchangeable in the original language, yet, incredibly, in English-language bibles these words are translated differently in different places to fit the translators' theology (rather than allow the words of scripture to determine their theology). Not only did English translators dump these four very different words into one meaning, they were not even consistent with it and chose to translate these same words with different meanings in different places. It is no wonder that English readers of the Bible are confused.

If one examines what the early Church Fathers wrote about "hell" and the afterlife, it will be seen that they too understood that there is no place called hell, and that both paradise and torment came from being in God's presence in the afterlife.

When you examine what the Roman Catholic Church teaches and what most Protestants believe about the afterlife, and compare that with the scriptures and early Church beliefs, you find large disparities. You will also find their innovative doctrines were not drawn from the Bible or historic Church doctrine, but rather from the mythology of the Middle Ages, juridical concepts, and enlightenment rationalizations, all alien to early Christian thought.

The Afterlife According to the Hebrew Scriptures

Sheol is one word sometimes translated as "Hell" in the Old Testament. In Hebrew, this word is a proper noun, that is a name or title, so properly it should not have been translated but simply transliterated, as is done with other names. The literal meaning of this Hebrew word is simply "subterranean retreat". Sheol was not understood as a physical place since it exists in the spirit world, but it is a spiritual "place" associated with dead people. It was understood that when a person dies, their body is buried, and their soul goes to reside in Sheol. That is the fate for all people who die, both the righteous and the wicked. According to Hebrew scholars, anything more detailed is conjecture and speculation.

Sheol was translated as "hell" in a number of places where it was indicating a place for the wicked, which is consistent with western thought. But it was also translated as "grave" and as "pit" in a number of other places where it was clearly not a place of the wicked. Yet there are other Hebrew words for grave and pit, so why did it not occur to the translators that if the author wanted to mean pit or grave they would have used them? It can been seen that where Sheol fit the translators' idea of hell as a place of torment, they interpreted it one way, as hell, and simply used the word another way if it did not, confusing those who are trying to understand the Scriptures in translation.

In historic Jewish understanding, it is the perception of the individual in Sheol that makes the difference. This same "place" called Sheol is experienced by the righteous as "gen eiden", the Garden of Eden or Paradise, i.e. "heaven". Moreover, Sheol is experienced by the wicked as the "fires of gehennom", i.e. punishment or "hell".

What is it that causes this same place to be experienced differently by the righteous and the wicked? According to the Jews (and by inheritance, the Christians as well) it is the very presence of God. Since God fills all things and dwells everywhere in the spirit world, there is nowhere apart from Him. Moreover, evil sinners, the enemies of God, experience His presence, His Shechinah glory, as punishment. Yet the righteous bask in that same glory, and experience it as the love and joy of God, as Paradise.

 

[intricatic]

Sin normally has a consequence in the here and now........and God is just........and also merciful so I dont worry about him sentencing helpless creatures to an eternal state of perpetual misery whatever that is envisaged by those who ascribe to it......
punishment is meted out for a reason....usually to instruct or correct and in some cases protect........if it doesnt fall into those categories then it ceases to become punishment but vengeance..........
and torture for any reason is wrong in my book, its wrong for humans to inflict it on each other, I dont believe that God would inflict it either.........

You seem to be very much in understanding of this subject, but yet you still look at it from a perspective that's contrary to God's nature just because it's seemingly popular to do so. Why do you think we have free will? Do you think that God would violate our freedom of will by meshing out some judgement on us for using it? Hell is a choice, and an active one in this life. It becomes a passive choice in the next because of the state of eternity, but that's simply what it is. Good works can't save you, even some Christians have issues understanding that fact. Only grace can redeem an individual to his own conscious choice to reject Hell in both this life, and the next. Otherwise, the simple fact that at times we chose Hell, and it's in our very nature to do so, would guarantee us an eternal decision of that nature as well.

In fact, in some scripture, it's implied that the Law [trying to be redeemed by good works] is the very cause of this Hell, this sinful transgression that people consciously chose all too often. If you can read into the implications of that statement and how it pertains to this life, you can see active justice at work, and active mercy and grace.

 

[red77]

You seem to be very much in understanding of this subject, but yet you still look at it from a perspective that's contrary to God's nature just because it's seemingly popular to do so. Why do you think we have free will? Do you think that God would violate our freedom of will by meshing out some judgement on us for using it? Hell is a choice, and an active one in this life. It becomes a passive choice in the next because of the state of eternity, but that's simply what it is. Good works can't save you, even some Christians have issues understanding that fact. Only grace can redeem an individual to his own conscious choice to reject Hell in both this life, and the next. Otherwise, the simple fact that at times we chose Hell, and it's in our very nature to do so, would guarantee us an eternal decision of that nature as well.

In fact, in some scripture, it's implied that the Law [trying to be redeemed by good works] is the very cause of this Hell, this sinful transgression that people consciously chose all too often. If you can read into the implications of that statement and how it pertains to this life, you can see active justice at work, and active mercy and grace.

I'm not sure if i understand this fully to be honest......I argue against the fundamentalist interpretation of hell because rationally it makes no sense and is a destructive doctrine IMO, it doesnt have anything to do with promoting popular views on the subject, many times its proven unpopular in my life to take a stance against the orthodox teaching on hell........

I believe we have free will to the extent of being able to rationalise and make informed decisions about things, we dont have total free will because other factors like upbringing/environment play major roles in defining who we are as people, I dont see hell as being a 'choice'......we all make wrong decisions and mistakes and these again help us to mature as individuals.........and I dont think God punishes us for our mistakes without there being a reason for it

I dont ascribe to the literal view of hell myself, I think its something thats more symbolic of the consequences we pay for our actions in this life, I agree that mercy and grace are evident in this life and that good works dont bring salvation, God does that, at the end of the day heaven and hell are beyond our scope to conceptualise anyway on pretty much any level, we dont have the scope to envisage eternity in any form, personally i believe that concepts like eternity may well be irrelevant as i dont think the construct of time may mean anything after this life.........

And if any of that made sense then its a fluke as my head to be honest is pretty much boxed in with all this stuff......................

 

[intricatic]

I'm not sure if i understand this fully to be honest......I argue against the fundamentalist interpretation of hell because rationally it makes no sense and is a destructive doctrine IMO, it doesnt have anything to do with promoting popular views on the subject, many times its proven unpopular in my life to take a stance against the orthodox teaching on hell........

I believe we have free will to the extent of being able to rationalise and make informed decisions about things, we dont have total free will because other factors like upbringing/environment play major roles in defining who we are as people, I dont see hell as being a 'choice'......we all make wrong decisions and mistakes and these again help us to mature as individuals.........and I dont think God punishes us for our mistakes without there being a reason for it

I dont ascribe to the literal view of hell myself, I think its something thats more symbolic of the consequences we pay for our actions in this life, I agree that mercy and grace are evident in this life and that good works dont bring salvation, God does that, at the end of the day heaven and hell are beyond our scope to conceptualise anyway on pretty much any level, we dont have the scope to envisage eternity in any form, personally i believe that concepts like eternity may well be irrelevant as i dont think the construct of time may mean anything after this life.........

And if any of that made sense then its a fluke as my head to be honest is pretty much boxed in with all this stuff......................

Nah, it made perfect sense. I just think it's a silly topic for anyone to get so worked up over. Regardless of whether or not Hell is a literal place, there's still consequence for sin in this life, and a reason why sin is defined. Your idea that the construct of time means nothing after this life is entirely my point, though. In this temporal place we live in, the decisions we make can be avoided in the future, but they still seek to define our decisions later in life, be it for either positive or negative. The end result is our eternal definition as either separate or together with Christ, and through Christ. In the end, it's not a punishment, but a result of the definition of choice in this life. Our upbringing and environment don't alter our free will, they merely provide the context that our wills can adopt. Mercy and Grace play such a huge part in this because naturally, we all seek after Hell [in the figurative and temporary sense, in this life] as a result of a strange concept that we can fix our own lives by our own designs. Everyone is guilty of that, and it's impossible not to be, in this world. Our choices can be defined through that, or the only other possibility; defining them through Grace and Mercy. But because nobody can do that at every single turning point in their life, everyone is equally seeking Hell [once again, in the figurative].

It's when you never bother to try to reject that. or don't feel there's a need to reject that, that you begin to seek Hell in the literal. It has to be an active decision, though. Not simply a passive one. And that takes some doing, but every person on Earth is capable of making it, and many do.

IMHO: Hell is built on ideas, and is constructed purely from them. A utopian political platform, for instance. A promise or a goal of a place where only peace exists, where our own humanity is twisted into a different nature by our own designs. That's abandoning wisdom. But then it's not just the extreme of political thinking, the entire concept of politics nowadays reeks of faulty idealism. There's nothing wrong with that, though. The world seeks that which the world wants, as a whole. Those cosmic concepts are also outside the realms of pertinence when it comes to God. That's not to say that charity and actively trying to help others is a bad thing, to the contrary. It's a lesson that even most Christians need to learn.

The thing is, every single person on this globe of rock in this massive universe is faced with the same two decisions, and one we're almost hardwired to make, because of the fact that we have the ability to make decisions for ourselves to begin with. That's why the "Right Thing" is often the hardest thing to do. Hell is merely the consequence of that. Even the best ideas and most wonderful things in this life can bring devastation and pain, afterall. To say contrary would be to take the humanity out of the man.

But obviously, God felt it worth the risk to give us Free Will, instead of just causing us to be automatons. Why do you think that is?

“The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater. Haldir, (Fellowship of the Ring, 339) [J.R.R. Tolkien]