Is Hell fair?

[Timothew]

Timothew,

I refer to your post at #142 and this is a response.

OzSpen, I am no longer able to discuss what the Bible says about hell in this forum. If you wish to talk, we can talk in a different forum. UDD has been suggested as a possibility for discussion about what the Bible says about hell.

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen, I am no longer able to discuss what the Bible says about hell in this forum. If you wish to talk, we can talk in a different forum. UDD has been suggested as a possibility for discussion about what the Bible says about hell.

That is because the position of annihilation that you are espousing is not within the realm of orthodox doctrine, hence your referral to the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion.

I am not interested in the unorthodox doctrine of hell (which is better described as Hades and Gehenna).

Oz

 

[Timothew]

That is because the position of annihilation that you are espousing is not within the realm of orthodox doctrine, hence your referral to the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion.

I am not interested in the unorthodox doctrine of hell (which is better described as Hades and Gehenna).

Oz

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

 

[OzSpen]

John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

So what's the meaning of the Greek word for 'perish'?

 

[Timothew]

So what's the meaning of the Greek word for 'perish'?

The Greek word for perish is ἀπόληται, and it means "perish".
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish (apoletai) but have eternal life.
How is it translated in your Bible?

Here is more information on apoletai, a form of the Greek word apollumi:
The definition says "destroy utterly, kill,"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=apolhtai&la=greek#lexicon

 

[OzSpen]

Originally Posted by Timothew

The Greek word for perish is ἀπόληται, and it means "perish".
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish (apoletai) but have eternal life.
How is it translated in your Bible?

Here is more information on apoletai, a form of the Greek word apollumi:
The definition says "destroy utterly, kill,"

Greek Word Study Tool

Tim,

Apoletai ('perish' in John 3:16) is 3rd person, singular, aorist, subjunctive, middle of apollumi. Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon gives the meaning of the middle voice of apollumi, which it is in Jn 3:16, as 'be destroyed, ruined' and of a person, it means 'perish, die' as in Jn 3:16. Therefore, 'perish' meaning to die and be ruined is a justifiable meaning.

What happens at death for unbelievers?

I consider that hell/Hades/Gehenna are real and this will be a conscious, frightful place. But I cannot reach a conclusion about its exact nature for these reasons:

I accept that the biblical writers used metaphorical and not literal language. My main reasons for such a view are:

• Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell’s description cannot be literal.

• Let’s use Jude as an example. He described the after-life as ‘eternal fire’ (Jude 1:7) but that is contrasted with ‘utter darkness’ (Jude 1:13). For the angels, Jude writes of ‘gloomy darkness’ (Jude 1:6). Again, literal fire and literal darkness would be contradictory – from my human perspective.

• This issue is made knotty by the ‘lake of fire’ (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8. This hardly conforms with the ‘blackest darkness’.

• John the Baptist and Jesus also describe hell as ‘fire’ (Matt 3:10; 25:41) but also as ‘darkness’ (Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30).

• Matt 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. They are spirit beings. How is it possible for fire to work on non-physical beings?

Therefore, I accept a metaphorical understanding of hell/Hades/Gehenna. It does involve conscious suffering/torment (cf Luke 16:23-24) , but its nature is unknown to me because of the language used. Evidence from outside the NT also supports this perspective.

See fire and darkness appearing together in Jewish writings such as Qumran (1QS 2:8; 4:13), 1 Enoch 103:7; 2 Enoch 10:2-3; Jerusalem Talmud, Shekalim 6:1, 49d. These writings also speak of the bodies of the wicked that are rotting with worms and maggots (Judith 16:17; Sirach (Ben Sira) 7:17, cf Isa 66:24). It was ‘hot as fire and cold as ice’ replacing eternal torment in 2 Enoch 14:20(12).

Oz

 

[Timothew]

Oz, I have given you the definition of apollumi, I even gave you a nice link to Liddell and Scott's Greek Lexicon.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, I have given you the definition of apollumi, I even gave you a nice link to Liddell and Scott's Greek Lexicon.

Why did you avoid responding to what I wrote in #146?

 

[Timothew]

Why did you avoid responding to what I wrote in #146?

It doesn't need a response. You have the definition, and what you posted doesn't show that apoletai doesn't mean perish. I don't know what else to say other than, "you have the definition", which I said.

 

[OzSpen]

It doesn't need a response. You have the definition, and what you posted doesn't show that apoletai doesn't mean perish. I don't know what else to say other than, "you have the definition", which I said.

Tim,

I wrote in #146, 'Apoletai ('perish' in John 3:16) is 3rd person, singular, aorist, subjunctive, middle of apollumi. Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon gives the meaning of the middle voice of apollumi, which it is in Jn 3:16, as 'be destroyed, ruined' and of a person, it means 'perish, die' as in Jn 3:16. Therefore, 'perish' meaning to die and be ruined is a justifiable meaning'.

The fact is that apollumi does not just mean 'perish'. It also means, 'ruined, die'. Your view is not prepared to admit that at death, no believers will die and experience ruin.

However, you have said that the moderators of this forum have told you to discuss this at the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion because you are promoting an unorthodox view when compared with, say, the Nicene Creed.

Why don't you go there and start a thread on this topic?

I've appreciated dialoguing with you, but we are on different pages of the theological spectrum.

Oz

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Regarding fairness, I always thought hell was the most unjust and unfair thing I've ever heard of. It is something I cry out to God about. But I do realize that God is infinitely wiser than I, so for now, until a smarter man than I can explain how it could possibly come close to fairness, I'll get by with mournfully trusting God and thanking Him for rescuing me from that fate.

 

[OzSpen]

Regarding fairness, I always thought hell was the most unjust and unfair thing I've ever heard of. It is something I cry out to God about. But I do realize that God is infinitely wiser than I, so for now, until a smarter man than I can explain how it could possibly come close to fairness, I'll get by with mournfully trusting God and thanking Him for rescuing me from that fate.

Why don't you share with us your understanding of the nature of hell (Hades, Gehenna) and why you think it is unfair?

Oz

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Why don't you share with us your understanding of the nature of hell (Hades, Gehenna) and why you think it is unfair?

Oz

Sure.

it's the idea of infinite punishment for a finite crime.

I cannot in my mind take the punishing of eighty years of rebellion and evil with infinite torment (as in fifty quadrillion years hasn't even scratched the surface) and equate that with justice.

However, my sense of justice and fairness not being satisfied does not nullify what God has ordained; it merely upsets me.

 

[Timothew]

Tim,

I wrote in #146, 'Apoletai ('perish' in John 3:16) is 3rd person, singular, aorist, subjunctive, middle of apollumi. Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon gives the meaning of the middle voice of apollumi, which it is in Jn 3:16, as 'be destroyed, ruined' and of a person, it means 'perish, die' as in Jn 3:16. Therefore, 'perish' meaning to die and be ruined is a justifiable meaning'.

The fact is that apollumi does not just mean 'perish'. It also means, 'ruined, die'. Your view is not prepared to admit that at death, no believers will die and experience ruin.

However, you have said that the moderators of this forum have told you to discuss this at the Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion because you are promoting an unorthodox view when compared with, say, the Nicene Creed.

Why don't you go there and start a thread on this topic?

I've appreciated dialoguing with you, but we are on different pages of the theological spectrum.

Oz

I did:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7857087/#post66797977
and here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7580660/#post58137354


(Where does the Nicene Creed say that there is ECT, I'm just wondering)

 

[OzSpen]

(Where does the Nicene Creed say that there is ECT, I'm just wondering)

Tim,

You need to understand this language in the Nicene Creed: 'to judge the quick and the dead ...I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come'. ECT = being eternal conscious torment.

These are only one-liners of summary of foundational doctrines, doctrines of which are found in scripture. We know from Scripture that there is ' conscious torment' for the ungodly after death (see Luke 16:23) and that it will be eternal (Matt 25:46).

'The life of the world to come' applies to both believers and non-believers. This is supported by Scripture.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Originally Posted by BornAgainBrian
[QUOTESure.

it's the idea of infinite punishment for a finite crime.

I cannot in my mind take the punishing of eighty years of rebellion and evil with infinite torment (as in fifty quadrillion years hasn't even scratched the surface) and equate that with justice.

However, my sense of justice and fairness not being satisfied does not nullify what God has ordained; it merely upsets me.[/QUOTE]


Brian,

I suggest that you need to consider 2 aspects:

• Please go back to #146 where I have tried to explain the nature of what happens in Hades/Gehenna. See http://www.christianforums.com/t7495958-15/. Because of the varied terms that are used, I'm not sure that we can come to a conclusion of the exact nature of what happens in Hades. However, one term has particular implications for those who didn't want anything to do with God in this life. It's in 2 Thess 1:9, 'They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power' (NLT). So, those experiencing the eternal destruction will be 'forever separated from the Lord'. Other translations have it as 'away from the presence of the Lord' (ESV).

• Degrees of punishment in hell. I have written a brief article on this, 'Are there degrees of punishment in hell?' I think the Bible teaches such.

• I'm of the view that hell is fair for these reasons: The matter rises or falls on (1) our understanding of the nature of the eternal attribute of God, (2) the nature of human beings, and (3) whether or not we think the human soul lives forever. If our souls are not eternal, then sins do not have eternal consequences. They are temporary.
  

The reality is that we are created beings who live forever. We are made for an eternal relationship with God, who is the eternal Being. Therefore to sin against the eternal God, reject his overtures to us, has eternal consequences.


My understanding is that when we think of sins as being temporal and not having eternal consequences, then we begin to think that eternal hell is unfair.

When I understand the eternal nature of sins, and the eternal attribute of the One against whom I sin, I understand why Jesus’ sacrifice for sin was the necessary sacrifice.

Is it fair that the eternal Son of God had to be sacrificed for temporal sins? That’s the wrong question, in my view. The eternal Son of God was sacrificed on the cross because sin has eternal consequences.

Hebrew 7:27 states, ‘He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself’ (ESV).

Why don't you take a read of Michael Houdmann’s article, How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Timothew]

Tim,

You need to understand this language in the Nicene Creed: 'to judge the quick and the dead ...I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come'. ECT = being eternal conscious torment.

These are only one-liners of summary of foundational doctrines, doctrines of which are found in scripture. We know from Scripture that there is ' conscious torment' for the ungodly after death (see Luke 16:23) and that it will be eternal (Matt 25:46).

'The life of the world to come' applies to both believers and non-believers. This is supported by Scripture.

Oz

Thanks, I do believe that Jesus Christ will return to judge the quick and the dead. I believe and look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. I dont see anything written in the creed about ECT, which you said that I disagree with in the creed. Whether the life of the world to come applies to both believers and unbelievers is the $64 question, isn't it. I see where the Bible says that believers receive eternal life, but I disagree that the Bible says that unbelievers receive eternal life.

I don't disagree with the Nicene Creed or the Bible.

 

[OzSpen]

Whether the life of the world to come applies to both believers and unbelievers is the $64 question, isn't it. I see where the Bible says that believers receive eternal life, but I disagree that the Bible says that unbelievers receive eternal life.

I don't disagree with the Nicene Creed or the Bible.

Seems to me, Tim, that you show a blind eye to certain Scriptures to assist you in reaching that conclusion. The life of the world to come applies to ALL people - but they are 2 different worlds of conscious existence. Yes, conscious existence. We know that from the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus:

Luke 16:22-31(ESV)

22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[a] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—28 for I have five brothers[b]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (emphasis added)

Footnotes:

1. Luke 16:22 Greek bosom; also verse 23
2. Luke 16:28 Or brothers and sisters

​

There is life after death for both the redeemed and unbelievers, but they are in different places experiencing different effects. That's Bible!


Oz

 

[James-49]

Seems to me, Tim, that you show a blind eye to certain Scriptures to assist you in reaching that conclusion.

There is life after death for both the redeemed and unbelievers, but they are in different places experiencing different effects. That's Bible!

Oz

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Rev 20:14 (KJV)

The "hell" cast into the lake is the same word as the "hades" the rich man was in.

That's Bible, too.

 

[OzSpen]

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Rev 20:14 (KJV)

The "hell" cast into the lake is the same word as the "hades" the rich man was in.

That's Bible, too.

And???