is hell eternal or temporary

[SeventhValley]

Is hell eternal or temporary?

Can you be refined through hell?

 

[truefiction1]

Well, if not even the worm dieth there...

 

[~Anastasia~]

First - I'm not speaking for Orthodoxy.

It seems there are different teachings about this, and I'm not sure if the Orthodox Church endorses any of them in particular, or just allows the others, or what?

There certainly seems to be a disposition of "we can't know it all at this point" from several monks I have spoken to, as well as a priest or two.

I should probably stop there.

Yes, I will. I deleted the rest. There is usually much care in what I'm told, and it seems there may not be an absolute dogmatic point about it. If there were one, it's probably more supported that hell is eternal. But there are so many nuances to that, it's difficult to state or assume anything more.

It might be important to ask what hell is, and just who will be there.

I'm interested in a discussion of this as well, but I'm never sure if what I hear is actually "the Orthodox position" if there even is such a thing.

 

[Trying_to_be_Orthodox]

@Kylissa

should probably stop there.- continue, pls. Its very interesting. Want to compare with my knowledge

 

[agua]

Is hell eternal or temporary?

Can you be refined through hell?

Which hell are you talking about ? Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, Gehenna, or the LoF ?

 

[Lukaris]

It is, regrettably, eternal, whatever one calls it. We also believe that there is justice & mercy of God towards all individuals according to their actions & accountability (Romans 2).

 

[SeventhValley]

I just wonder about how the scriptures say you can be saved through fire by being turned over to Satan seems to imply a temporary stay in a eternal fire.

Also if Hitler got 1,000 years in hell for each victim of the holocaust that would be roughly 11 Billion years. So eternity makes even him look like he is getting a undeserved punishment. Makes God look like a monster
I thought the EO allowed belief in ultimate reconciliation? Maybe I am thinking of the wrong church. If so sorry for disturbing you.

 

[Lukaris]

I just wonder about how the scriptures say you can be saved through fire by being turned over to Satan seems to imply a temporary stay in a eternal fire.

Also if Hitler got 1,000 years in hell for each victim of the holocaust that would be roughly 11 Billion years. So eternity makes even him look like he is getting a undeserved punishment. Makes God look like a monster
I thought the EO allowed belief in ultimate reconciliation? Maybe I am thinking of the wrong church. If so sorry for disturbing you.

We do not want to think you are disturbing us. Universalism is not accepted by the Orthodox Church; we are permitted to pray for the salvation of all since the final judgement still awaits us all. As far as we know in the resurrection of everlasting life to those who have done good & condemnation to those who have done evil (John 5:29). We also know with God, all things are possible (Matthew 19:26).

 

[~Anastasia~]

I just wonder about how the scriptures say you can be saved through fire by being turned over to Satan seems to imply a temporary stay in a eternal fire.

Also if Hitler got 1,000 years in hell for each victim of the holocaust that would be roughly 11 Billion years. So eternity makes even him look like he is getting a undeserved punishment. Makes God look like a monster
I thought the EO allowed belief in ultimate reconciliation? Maybe I am thinking of the wrong church. If so sorry for disturbing you.

Well, I didn't want to go into it earlier. But I have read of so many possibilities, I was (and am) unsure if the Orthodox Church really has a position.

Of course we do know that God is just. And that God is merciful.

You mention ultimate reconciliation? And whether the Church allows such a belief? I think the Church allows many kinds of beliefs. As long as it does not deny the justice or mercy of God, I suppose???

I have heard Orthodox talk about such things as those souls who hate God being in His Presence - as He is everywhere. And He loves everyone. But those who hate God will experience His presence and love as "a consuming fire" and so their experience of it will be hell for them, while for those who love God and are prepared to be in His presence, the same will be indescribable joy.

Some of them go on to say that the presence of God, and time, can ultimately change those people, so that they become able to bear His presence. And that over time some/most/all (depending on who you ask) can be changed in such a way that they will ultimately be changed to be more like Him and can experience God's presence as heaven.

I have heard this. I do NOT say it is an official teaching of the Church, but it would seem it is "allowed" as you are asking. That would allow for ultimate reconciliation of all creatures which are changeable (mankind). It will not (according to most) result in reconciliation of Satan or fallen angels.

And I have also heard very mainstream teachings that involve being thrown into hell forever.

Those are probably the two extreme poles of what I have heard. And there exist in between other teachings as well.

As I said, I do NOT speak for the Church. My priest has not made it a point to speak to us about those who are condemned very much at all, but we speak more about being saved. If there is an official teaching of the Church, I am not positive what it is. I thought I knew, but I keep hearing different things. I believe it is most likely something one is allowed to believe one's conscience in?

 

[~Anastasia~]

We do not want to think you are disturbing us. Universalism is not accepted by the Orthodox Church; we are permitted to pray for the salvation of all since the final judgement still awaits us all. As far as we know in the resurrection of everlasting life to those who have done good & condemnation to those who have done evil (John 5:29). We also know with God, all things are possible (Matthew 19:26).

Ah, I did not see this. This is the strongest impression I get, thank you (I was wondering as well).

Within the bolded parts above, well it seems many things can actually fit.

I am not doing too badly then, because while I listed what I have heard to answer 7th's question, the bolded part above is what I tend to hold to as "safe" doctrine.

(Though I have heard priests caution that the "temporary" disposition of souls ought not to be considered "temporary" so much because it is changeable, but that it is simply not in its final stage - and yet at the same time, no one is willing to deny that with God all things are possible, as you say.)

It's not really very hard-lined is it?

 

[Dorothea]

It's eternal torment which a person chooses before they leave the earth because they are always in the presence of God because He is in all things and everywhere.

 

[ArmyMatt]

hell is eternal in that someone who refuses to accept God's mercy and love, will experience that love (and all the regret, torment, judgment, etc that comes with it) as judgment and wrath because that is what love is in the face of the sinful. so for someone who eternally choses to cling to their sins and not let it go, that is how they will experience God. that condition will only exist after the last judgment. what makes it hell is the sinner himself, because hell's gates are locked from the inside.

 

[agua]

I just wonder about how the scriptures say you can be saved through fire by being turned over to Satan seems to imply a temporary stay in a eternal fire.

Which scriptures are you referring to ? I think there's a couple you may be combining here that refer to how we may have chastening and tribulation in this life ( from either satan or Yahweh ) which will remove the "dross". ie. the process of being conformed to the image of Jesus.

 

[isshinwhat]

Is hell eternal or temporary?

Can you be refined through hell?

From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

GOD'S JUDGEMENT

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1. Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and

2. there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.

The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is the intermediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are intercorrelated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied, they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.

The Last Judgment is not an act of overthrowing, the judgment of the soul at the time of its separation from the body, but rather to effect a union with the transformed, risen body with which the soul will continue to live forever. After the separation, the soul is conscious and consequently, feels, understands, and in general exercises all the energies of the soul (Revelation 6:9-10, 7:15; 1 Peter 3: 19; Hebrews 12:23; Luke 16:27-28). The word "sleep", by which death is characterized, does not refer to the soul, but to the body. In Matthew 27:52, we read that many Saints who had fallen asleep, were raised. The Last Judgment will take place on the second coming of Jesus Christ, a strong belief of the Church recorded in THE CREED that "He (Jesus Christ) shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead". The time of the second coming of Jesus Christ is not known and, according to Revelation, cannot be conjectured by any means.

Christ the Author of Salvation, Judgement and Ever-lasting life. In short, in regards to death we are confronted with salvation, judgment, and everlasting life in the name of Jesus Christ. The Christian is assured of two things: that he will find the means of salvation in Christ and His true Church and that his future destiny depends upon his present life.

 

[RileyG]

From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

Thanks for answering...

 

[isshinwhat]

A corollary post:

The rest of the soul and the remission of sins by the merciful and compassionate Almighty are the theme of this prayer. It is the remission of sins which brings about the rest of the soul; the remission of sins is, therefore, the innate craving of every Christian, "for there is no man who liveth and sinneth not; Thou only are without sin." But how can we reconcile the beliefs of the Church

that there is no repentance after death with
its prayers for the remission of the sins of the deceased?
First of all, repentance and remission of sins are not the same thing, though not related to one another. Repentance - that is, the change of mind of the faithful towards God's will and the return to obedience to His will - is a human reaction and motivation, whereas the remission of sins is God's arbitrary volition and will.

The Church prays not to change the decision of God or the place of the soul, but rather to thank the Almighty and to express its human compassion on the departure of its members. It is very human for the faithful to remember his relative or friend who has died, yet there is no other way than by praying to God for him and asking for the rest of his soul - which means the remission of his sins. We pray for him now, and we will continue to pray for him, as we did when he was with us here on earth. In the eyes of the Church, there is no difference. A Christian mother cannot forget her son who died in the war, but she can remember him in a Christian way only in the name of God. Such a mother is a true member of the Church. The whole Church prays to the Almighty for each and all of its members.

 

[isshinwhat]

Thanks for answering...

You are welcome.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, thank you. That was very helpful. Especially in answering the difference between repentance and remission of sin. I had wondered how it could make sense to pray on behalf of the dead if their state cannot change after death.

Thank you.

 

[SeventhValley]

Just wondering what are you're thoughts on Gregory of Nyssa? He said ", just as the dross is purged from gold by fire. In the same way in the long circuits of time, when the evil of nature which is now mingled and implanted in them has been taken away, whensoever the restoration to their old condition of the things that now lie in wickedness takes place, there will be a unanimous thanksgiving from the whole creation, both of those who have been punished in the purification and of those who have not at all needed purification"

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just wondering what are you're thoughts on Gregory of Nyssa? He said ", just as the dross is purged from gold by fire. In the same way in the long circuits of time, when the evil of nature which is now mingled and implanted in them has been taken away, whensoever the restoration to their old condition of the things that now lie in wickedness takes place, there will be a unanimous thanksgiving from the whole creation, both of those who have been punished in the purification and of those who have not at all needed purification"

I am - as always not trying to say what the Orthodox Church teaches - but in light of the most recent posts, it seems to say that a person cannot themselves repent after death.

However, that would not absolutely necessarily mean that it is impossible for God to purify them and forgive them.

I do not say this is what happens. I would not give anyone the assurance of universalism. A part of me dares to hold that hope, as I would dearly love to think ALL could be saved. But if that hope is wrong, and it certainly could be, then the only thing we DO know to offer is the hope of salvation and urging one another to pursue it diligently.

But if we think carefully, it is possible to reconcile these ideas. I just wouldn't consider it more than a fervent hope in God's love and mercy, and certainly not a thing we can presume upon.

Just my personal take on it.