Is hell eternal conscious torment?

[inkidinkido]

"The body will be full of torment as full as it can hold, and every part of it shall be full of torment. They shall be in extreme pain, every joint of them, every nerve shall be full of inexpressible torment. They shall be tormented even to their fingers’ ends. The whole body shall be full of the wrath of God. Their hearts and bowels and their heads, their eyes and their tongues, their hands and their feet will be filled with the fierceness of God’s wrath."

--Jonathan Edwards​

We should always be wary of what we are all too ready to accept, for perhaps here it satisfies a secret sadistic desire for the vengeance we can not take ourselves - "I want to see him fry." If I am to believe that the fate of the dammned is eternal conscious torment, I want to be certain it is the testimony of scripture. For if I have a secret desire to see out the vengeance I can not take for myself, I should be wary that I do not find in the testimony of scripture just that for which I secretly wish, having placed it there myself.

To start:

Matthew 10:28 (NRSV)

Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Luke 12:5 (NRSV)

But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!​

Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:5 are parallel accounts. I suggest - and understand that this is speculative theology - that Matthew 10:28 here clarifies Luke 12:5 in that the body and soul both will be cast into hell (Gehenna), and there with fire will be destroyed. And also that Luke 12:5 clarifies Matthew 10:28 in that the body is already killed before it is destroyed in hell.

Now, because I don't know Greek, the best that I can do is look up words with Strong's. From that, I can at least tell that what is translated "kill" and what is translated "destroy" are differen words, and from their meanings this - in just the context of these two verses - is a plausible interpretation.

I'm well aware of the number of common passages that must be dealt with, and I would like to examine each of them. But what I will speculate as the hypoethical with which I would like to approach them, is that hell is destruction by fire of both the end body and soul to non-existence, and possibly that the fire and rot of hell itself is everlasting, though those cast into it are not.

Alternatively (and perhaps more interestingly), it may be that the body and soul rot and burn eternally in hell, but like those bodies which rot and burn on the battlefield, there is no life or consciousness in them and yet they persist and earn the scorn and disgust and contempt of the living.

Either such reading would be a compromise between the horrible, firey punishment of eternal torment readings, and the destruction of annihilationist readings. And I believe has great potential to satisfy both sets of texts without committing us to eternal conscious torment.

If there is any merit to discussing this, I would like to do so at a measured pace that does not involve posting a flury of proof texts without significant evaluation or examination of each, as significant examination is what is due each passage.

We also, I suggest, do not need to go on and on here about how it is a compromise brought on by liberalism, or either that the word of God is surely an offense to the natural mind. I generally believe these things and tend (as you can verify for yourself) to say as much. I tend to believe that hell is eternal conscious torment, and have absolutely no intellectual, philosophical, or ethical problem with it being so if indeed it is (as I have said elsewhere before). Specutively, I just want to try something different.

 

[Nirvana*]

wait....im so lost didn't jesus obliterate hell??????

 

[Nirvana*]

I dont understand why doesnt God just obliterate hell and judge all the souls again......

 

[inkidinkido]

There is sheol/hades, gehenna/hell, and tartaroo.

By "hell" I here mean gehenna.

 

[inkidinkido]

Matthew 25:46 is seen as a proof text for proponents of eternal conscious torment readings.

Matthew 25:46 (NRSV)

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.​

Several verses prior we are told of the former destination.

Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)

Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;​

I realize that what is seen as the most important translation issue here is whether that word which is translated "eternal" in both cases does in fact mean in our modern language "eternal", or whether its meaning is that it is a duration pertaining to this age (of which there are multiple), or an age to come.

This point is far beyond me, and so I am afraid I will have to ask for any help or references to scholarly or otherwise credible sources to at least provide solid information on both sides of the issue.

 

[inkidinkido]

And so there may be several potential compromise positions short of eternal conscious punishment, still assuming that we aren't universalists:
a) killed, and then unconscious rotting and burning for eternity
b) killed, then unconscious rotting and burning for a duration, and then destruction
c) conscious punishment for a duration, then destruction

 

[HoT-MetaL]

"The body will be full of torment as full as it can hold, and every part of it shall be full of torment. They shall be in extreme pain, every joint of them, every nerve shall be full of inexpressible torment. They shall be tormented even to their fingers’ ends. The whole body shall be full of the wrath of God. Their hearts and bowels and their heads, their eyes and their tongues, their hands and their feet will be filled with the fierceness of God’s wrath."

--Jonathan Edwards​

​

Johnathan Edwards? As if in world triple jump champion, Johnathan Edwards? He's an awesome christian, really on fire for god.

 

[inkidinkido]

No! "Jonathan Edwards" as in the 18th century preacher and revivalist, known most famously - well, at least most "popularly" - for sermons such as Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

You just can't beat a sermon that ends:

"Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation: Let every one fly out of Sodom: "Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed.""​

But now you have gotten me off topic!

Matthew 25:46 is the focal point of discussion on this issue.

 

[Jaywalk]

--Jonathan Edwards

The sermon New England never forgot and never forgave. Really out of character for the man too.

I'm well aware of the number of common passages that must be dealt with, and I would like to examine each of them. But what I will speculate as the hypoethical with which I would like to approach them, is that hell is destruction by fire of both the end body and soul to non-existence, and possibly that the fire and rot of hell itself is everlasting, though those cast into it are not.

The annihilationist argument in a nutshell. I just went over the basics of this on another thread. I'd go through it again, but it's 2:00am here and I desperately need to drag my sorry hindquarters off to bed.

I . . . have absolutely no intellectual, philosophical, or ethical problem with it being so if indeed it is

I'm with you there. As I quoted before, it's dangerous to try and be more merciful than God.

Peace,
Jaywalk

 

[christian-only]

There is sheol/hades, gehenna/hell, and tartaroo.

By "hell" I here mean gehenna.

Gehenna, is the valley of Hinnom. When valleys are filled with water, what do the become? Rivers, or possibly lakes. Then there you go:

(Rev 20:10) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever...[vs 15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Curt]

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Pet 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Sam 14:14
14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Job 37:24
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart.

Reply

Mathew 5:29,30 Better heaven with one eye that hell with a whole body, Genesis describes a whole body as the physical united with the spirit to be living soul. Etenal destruction can't end any more than eternal life can.
Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Isa 66:24
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Ezek 32:21
21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Ezek 32:18-21
18 Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19 Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20 They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOREVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(KJV)

So much for an end to their torture, destruction, and whatever else you want to call it.