Is Heaven reserved for the truly Evil?

[Rajni]

So, how would you dispose of the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Genghis Khans and the Pol Pots, the serial killers and the mass murderers of our times and previous? In the end, justice will be done, depend on it.

Best wishes, Strivax

This question assumes that one's post-mortem face-to-face encounter with
God couldn't possibly have any transformational effect on their soul
whatsoever.

Is there something the above individuals have that God can't handle?
He knew before even putting them here what they were going to do; don't
you think He'll take full responsibility for making things right in a way that
doesn't preserve the evil forever anywhere?

Even Paul explains that there's a difference between an individual and the
sin that they commit. God is perfectly capable of removing the evil while
keeping the individual intact.

"Behold, I make all things new".


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[ThinkForYourself]

I really wish people would stop using the word "punishment" when it comes to this kind of debate. A punishment is used to correct behavior, so unless the afterlife is going to be exactly as it is now so god needs to correct a person's behavior...it's just vengeance on god's part. Since it is just vengeance he can't be all forgiving.
...

Good point.

 

[Strivax]

First, Hell is infinitely worse than anything any of these people did. Not just a little, but God is doing something infinitely worse than anything any of these people did.

Second, how do you know all of these people weren't saved? In which case you will be seeing them in Heaven, and they won't be punished at all, but rather will get to enjoy eternal happiness.

So, you apparently think Hitler, Pol Pot, et al, could deserve eternal happiness. Interesting point of view.

Hmmm. You are not arguing with me - I, too find the idea of an eternity of damnation incredible and inconsistent with even a superficial concept of justice - but with a figment of your imagination. And, saved or unsaved, I find that these kinds of people will answer for their evil. But I am going to leave this thread, for now, and let you debate with your own mental constructions, that being your obvious intent, anyway.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

The fire is endless.
The suffering is not endless - because they don't get eternal life.
The penalty is endless - because you suffer, then it kills you and you don't come back.

Please see post #4, where I got the appropriate biblical quotes from bible.org.

The bible states that the suffering is eternal.

Or is the bible wrong?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Hmmm. You are not arguing with me - I, too find the idea of an eternity of damnation incredible and inconsistent with even a superficial concept of justice - but with a figment of your imagination. And, saved or unsaved, I find that these kinds of people will answer for their evil. But I am going to leave this thread, for now, and let you debate with your own mental constructions, that being your obvious intent, anyway.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I thought everyone could be saved and forgiven their sins. That's what the bible says.

Or is the bible wrong?

 

[Strivax]

This question assumes that one's post-mortem face-to-face encounter with
God couldn't possibly have any transformational effect on their soul
whatsoever.

No, it doesn't. It just insists that, however transformed, these individuals will still have their misdeeds to reckon with, repent of and atone for.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

Or is the bible wrong?

It wouldn't be the only error. But, I think, forgiveness is open to those who accept responsibility for their actions, and repent of them, and atone for them. None of this is easy going; the punishment element of this process is really quite severe.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

It wouldn't be the only error.

Best wishes, Strivax.

If one thing in the bible is wrong, then why do you believe any of it?

What is your methodology for deciding what in the bible is correct, and what is incorrect?

 

[Paradoxum]

Indeed it would. But can you cite an example of this happening, anywhere, at any time? No one can, or should, defend an unjust punishment. But we can, and should, support justice bestowed, even while we might discuss around what justice is in general, and in any specific matter.

Best wishes, Strivax

Well hell seems to be comparable, or worse than that.

Also, heaven seems to be mercy and forgiveness, not justice. Wouldn't the just thing be for all people to be punished according to their sins, and then go to heaven after?

 

[Rajni]

No, it doesn't. It just insists that, however transformed, these individuals will still have their misdeeds to reckon with, repent of and atone for.

That's what God's transformative power addresses.
That's why it's transformative.

One can reckon, repent and atone without frying in hell for all eternity.
The whole hell-thing makes God seem impotent, imo.


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[DiligentlySeekingGod]

No, it doesn't. It just insists that, however transformed, these individuals will still have their misdeeds to reckon with, repent of and atone for.

Best wishes, Strivax.

No one can atone for their own sins. And it is God Himself who leads us to repentance.

And for the record, from Scripture that is, no one is righteous or morally good, not even one, and no one seeks after God on their own.

 

[Inkfingers]

Please see post #4, where I got the appropriate biblical quotes from bible.org.

The bible states that the suffering is eternal.

Or is the bible wrong?

I have seen quote #4

Your quotes are mistaken. The penalty lasts forever, not the suffering. The quotes that you mention do not say that sinners live forever.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I have seen quote #4

Your quotes are mistaken. The penalty lasts forever, not the suffering. The quotes that you mention do not say that sinners live forever.

According to bible.org:

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

Is the bible wrong?

 

[Inkfingers]

According to bible.org:

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

Is the bible wrong?

Those Bible quotes do not say that people will exist forever in hell.

Dan 12:2 - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Dan 12:3 - "And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;fn and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Matt 25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal penalty, but the righteous into eternal life."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

John 5:28 - "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice"

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Rev 20:14 - "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire"

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Rev 20:15 - "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

As I said, suffering is not eternal.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Those Bible quotes do not say that people will exist forever in hell.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mt 25:46&version=NIV;KJVMatthew 25:46

New International Version (NIV)

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You are incorrect.

Or are you saying the bible is incorrect?

 

[Inkfingers]

Matthew 25:46

New International Version (NIV)

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You are incorrect.

Or are you saying the bible is incorrect?

Read my post again - I edited it.

The word being translated as "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is the greek kolasis which means PENALTY, not PUNISHMENT.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Read my post again - I edited it.

The word being translated as "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is the greek kolasis which means PENALTY, not PUNISHMENT.

Why would god have a penalty exist after the person being penalized quit existing? You could make the same argument with "punishment", using punishment or penalty doesn't change the meaning of eternal.

Clearly the meaning is that the punishment, or penalty, will be eternally applied. Surely you won't deny that the standard thinking is that the torment in Hell lasts forever.

 

[Inkfingers]

Why would god have a penalty exist after the person being penalized quit existing? You could make the same argument with "punishment", using punishment or penalty doesn't change the meaning of eternal.

Clearly the meaning is that the punishment, or penalty, will be eternally applied. Surely you won't deny that the standard thinking is that the torment in Hell lasts forever.

It's an eternal penalty in that you get no more chances - you are dead, and stay dead. Hence eternal penalty.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

It's an eternal penalty in that you get no more chances - you are dead, and stay dead. Hence eternal penalty.

Truly there are as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.

You would think that a god would be able to keep everyone on the same page.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It's an eternal penalty in that you get no more chances - you are dead, and stay dead. Hence eternal penalty.

Since many many Christians believe in eternal suffering for those in hell, how do we convince them that the Bible says otherwise? And do you find yourself in situations where you need to correct their thinking?