Is Heaven reserved for the truly Evil?

[Rajni]

The word being translated as "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is the greek kolasis which means PENALTY, not PUNISHMENT.

The nature of the penalty is more fully defined as follows:

According to Strong's:

kolasis: correction
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the
idea of deprivation.

​

What's interesting is that it's "correction". Meaning that it's not just endless
misery or outright annihilation—neither of which really corrects the
individual—but a fixing of that which was broken.

Paul said it's not him but sin living in him that was the issue. If Paul
could tell the difference, I'm sure God can.



-

 

[ShouldaWouldaCoulda]

If your family were murdered would you weep that the murderer was in prison? Would you never be happy again knowing that the murderer was behind bars for the rest of their life while you were free?

The murderer of your family had a choice. They knew murder was wrong. They had but to read the news or watch television reporting what happens to murderers in America so as to know that murder is punished.

But they chose to murder your family anyway.

Would it be wrong that that murderer was sentenced to live and die in prison for their crimes?

Heaven is supposed to be a place of eternal happiness.

But how can anyone be happy if one of their loved ones is in Hell being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if billions of people are being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if even one person is being tortured for all eternity?

To put this in perspective for the Christians on this site, Jesus is supposed to have suffered for mankind's sins. Yet God is planning on making people suffer, by definition, infinitely more than Jesus.

And if God changes my mind, or blanks that out, then it is not me in heaven, but rather some puppet.

So, only people who can take pleasure in torturing people for all eternity can be happy in heaven, and those are evil people.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

If your family were murdered would you weep that the murderer was in prison? Would you never be happy again knowing that the murderer was behind bars for the rest of their life while you were free?

The murderer of your family had a choice. They knew murder was wrong. They had but to read the news or watch television reporting what happens to murderers in America so as to know that murder is punished.

But they chose to murder your family anyway.

Would it be wrong that that murderer was sentenced to live and die in prison for their crimes?

But according to the bible, the murderer can be saved, and not pay for their crimes.

As well, this doesn't address the question of how anyone other than the truly evil could be happy in heaven while people are suffering the worst imaginable torment for all eternity.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

No body is suppose to be happy in the after life. That is why the hell fire is prepared for this who slip into death and exit this world. The fate of every living being is to torture in hell forever.

 

[Strivax]

No one can atone for their own sins. And it is God Himself who leads us to repentance.

And for the record, from Scripture that is, no one is righteous or morally good, not even one, and no one seeks after God on their own.

Whilst I recognise that your sentiments are shared by many, I am not one of them. For the record, from personal experience, it is certainly possible to seek God on your own. And no-one was more surprised than I was when I found Him. Furthermore, I just do not subscribe to this pessimistic, negative view of humanity so common among Christians. If there really was no virtue without (a Christian conception of) God, then many races, instead of hanging together to make some truly awesome civilisations, would have collapsed into a dog-eat-dog chaos long ago. As for repentance and atonement, I found both to be a necessary part of the healing I needed to be truly 'born again'. I do not find that any act of God, or Jesus for that matter, absolved me of the necessity to admit my wrong, apologise for it wholeheartedly, and go through a painful process of spiritual restitution.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

what happened to this page and why is it so long?!

 

[Huntun]

It doesn't make sense to compare everlasting suffering of the most extreme kind with loving paternal discipline. They later is meant for the child's good and might consist of something minor like time out or at most a spanking. Discipline is applied to change behavior not to cause torturous suffering because you think the person "deserved it." Now, if a parent put their child in an iron maiden or on the rack and slowly tortured them for the rest of their life because the child didn't love them enough our doubted their existence because they never met than that might be a little more analogous.

 

[Syd the Human]

I have seen quote #4

Your quotes are mistaken. The penalty lasts forever, not the suffering. The quotes that you mention do not say that sinners live forever.

Those Bible quotes do not say that people will exist forever in hell.

Dan 12:2 - "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Dan 12:3 - "And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;fn and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Matt 25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal penalty, but the righteous into eternal life."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

John 5:28 - "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice"

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Rev 20:14 - "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire"

No mention of living forever in Hell.

Rev 20:15 - "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

No mention of living forever in Hell.

As I said, suffering is not eternal.

It's an eternal penalty in that you get no more chances - you are dead, and stay dead. Hence eternal penalty.

"pen·al·ty [pen-l-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural pen·al·ties.
1.
a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2.
a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.
3.
something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4.
a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5.
consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc."

Whether you use penalty or punishment it's the same. And, by your own scripture:

"Your quotes are mistaken. The penalty lasts forever, not the suffering. The quotes that you mention do not say that sinners live forever."

- So the punishment/penalty lasts forever. What do you think the penalty/punishment is?

""And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

- So there is everlasting contempt to certain people? Not very forgiving.

"Matt 25:46 - "And these will go away into eternal penalty, but the righteous into eternal life."

- So they will have eternal punishment/penalty. What do you think that penalty/punishment is?

So let's make a comparison between hell and prison. Let's say a person goes to prison for life and is originally in isolation. He later is let out into the general population. He is still being punished to correct his behavior (to keep his behavior in check in prison) regardless of whether he's in isolation or not. However, that punishment is finite and serves a purpose other than vengeance.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Revelation 14:9-11 (underlined for emphasis)
"9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

[ShouldaWouldaCoulda]

But according to the bible, the murderer can be saved, and not pay for their crimes.

As well, this doesn't address the question of how anyone other than the truly evil could be happy in heaven while people are suffering the worst imaginable torment for all eternity.

We can only know what scriptures tell us. All else is our own imagination.

Maybe because we died in the spirit after we were saved that that status allows us to forget all else when we enter Heaven. We are then unaware of anything but paradise.

 

[ShouldaWouldaCoulda]

No body is suppose to be happy in the after life. That is why the hell fire is prepared for this who slip into death and exit this world. The fate of every living being is to torture in hell forever.

Everyone? No matter what?

And may I ask you, what did you post under your screen name that has the [bless do not curse] censor all in a tizzy?

 

[Neogaia777]

Heaven is supposed to be a place of eternal happiness.

But how can anyone be happy if one of their loved ones is in Hell being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if billions of people are being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if even one person is being tortured for all eternity?

To put this in perspective for the Christians on this site, Jesus is supposed to have suffered for mankind's sins. Yet God is planning on making people suffer, by definition, infinitely more than Jesus.

And if God changes my mind, or blanks that out, then it is not me in heaven, but rather some puppet.

So, only people who can take pleasure in torturing people for all eternity can be happy in heaven, and those are evil people.

We try to separate or sort out who is good and who is truly evil in this world in our own human limited judgment, but our judgment is limited...

We do not, for example "know" ALL of the circumstances in a persons lifespan, God does, and he is the only one who does, and is therefore the one and only one truly, fully equipped and qualified TO JUDGE, so we must abandon our own limited human judgment and learn to ACCEPT HIS, as being truly, fully 100% justified and right, cause ONLY HE, fully knows every event in a persons life, ALL of the extinuating circumstances...

In short, we must accept his judgment, in place of ours, and KNOW that it and only it/his is 100% right and truly just... "We" are not qualified to judge, "HE" is, and that's the end of it...

In our humaness we want to believe that even the worst of the worst can be saved, and there is a possibility that they can, if they change their ways and turn to Jesus, but some don't... Their is also the need in our humaness that cries out for justice, a justice in which we are not qualified to judge, but God can/is... We must accept that...

In Jesus Christ's holy name,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Heaven is supposed to be a place of eternal happiness.

But how can anyone be happy if one of their loved ones is in Hell being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if billions of people are being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if even one person is being tortured for all eternity?

To put this in perspective for the Christians on this site, Jesus is supposed to have suffered for mankind's sins. Yet God is planning on making people suffer, by definition, infinitely more than Jesus.

And if God changes my mind, or blanks that out, then it is not me in heaven, but rather some puppet.

So, only people who can take pleasure in torturing people for all eternity can be happy in heaven, and those are evil people.

Another thing, your discussion topic line "Is heaven reserved for the truly evil" is not at all the subject or topic that your paragraph body goes into...

In other words, & for example; you discuss in your paragraph how those who go to heaven, (which are the ones who God deems to be good or worthy by God), can be content being there, while others (who are deemed to be evil or wicked), by God, (in God's judgement, not ours), how they (the ones who are deemed by God to be good or worthy) can be content being there when others are deemed deserving of torment in hell...

But your title of this thread, has nothing to do with the body, in that you say nothing at all about the evil or wicked going to heaven, so I am a little confused...

Do you think that evil or wicked people go to heaven or not, you imply it in the title of this thread, but go into nothing about discussing it in the thread body...?

God Bless!

 

[ThinkForYourself]

We try to separate or sort out who is good and who is truly evil in this world in our own human limited judgment, but our judgment is limited...

We do not, for example "know" ALL of the circumstances in a persons lifespan, God does, and he is the only one who does, and is therefore the one and only one truly, fully equipped and qualified TO JUDGE, so we must abandon our own limited human judgment and learn to ACCEPT HIS, as being truly, fully 100% justified and right, cause ONLY HE, fully knows every event in a persons life, ALL of the extinuating circumstances...

In short, we must accept his judgment, in place of ours, and KNOW that it and only it/his is 100% right and truly just... "We" are not qualified to judge, "HE" is, and that's the end of it...

In our humaness we want to believe that even the worst of the worst can be saved, and there is a possibility that they can, if they change their ways and turn to Jesus, but some don't... Their is also the need in our humaness that cries out for justice, a justice in which we are not qualified to judge, but God can/is... We must accept that...

In Jesus Christ's holy name,

God Bless!

First, you have completely ignored the main question: How can anyone be happy in heaven while others suffer eternal torment unless they are evil.

Second, all anyone has to do is be a sycophant, and they are forgiven all their crimes, no matter how horrible. There is no judgement.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Another thing, your discussion topic line "Is heaven reserved for the truly evil" is not at all the subject or topic that your paragraph body goes into...

In other words, & for example; you discuss in your paragraph how those who go to heaven, (which are the ones who God deems to be good or worthy by God), can be content being there, while others (who are deemed to be evil or wicked), by God, (in God's judgement, not ours), how they (the ones who are deemed by God to be good or worthy) can be content being there when others are deemed deserving of torment in hell...

But your title of this thread, has nothing to do with the body, in that you say nothing at all about the evil or wicked going to heaven, so I am a little confused...

Do you think that evil or wicked people go to heaven or not, you imply it in the title of this thread, but go into nothing about discussing it in the thread body...?

God Bless!

According to the bible, anyone who doesn't believe in god isn't worthy of heaven.

How is not believing worthy of eternal torment? That is absolutely and completely immoral.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

We can only know what scriptures tell us. All else is our own imagination.

Maybe because we died in the spirit after we were saved that that status allows us to forget all else when we enter Heaven. We are then unaware of anything but paradise.

If you are unaware of anything but paradise, then you aren't yourself, and it is some mock human in heaven.

 

[Neogaia777]

First, you have completely ignored the main question: How can anyone be happy in heaven while others suffer eternal torment unless they are evil.

Second, all anyone has to do is be a sycophant, and they are forgiven all their crimes, no matter how horrible. There is no judgement.

For the first question: One is not evil if they accept God's judgment of others, not their own, but God's judgment, for only he can truly judge correctly... We might even mourn them for a short period of time, but in the end it will be accepting and trusting in God's judgment call...

As for the second: One has to be a sycophant towards and with Jesus Christ in mind, otherwise they will not be accepted, he who rejects the Son, rejects the Father also... And not everyone is comfortable being a sycophant towards Jesus Christ, or any authority figure in life... My guess is that, "I" trust God's judgment, if someone is deemed deserving of Hell, then I won't question him, will you?

My guess is also that these people (that go to hell) refused to be a "sycophant" or submit to, or serve anyone or anything, including their fellow man (completely selfish and self-centered), so... Only God alone knows the complete story of a man or woman, and I trust in that, so...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

According to the bible, anyone who doesn't believe in god isn't worthy of heaven.

How is not believing worthy of eternal torment? That is absolutely and completely immoral.

It is my belief, that some who just simply don't believe, might just go to permanent rest in the grave (ground, dirt) never to be recalled, or resurrected or remembered ever again...

UNLESS, (and this is the purpose of others spreading the gospel around the world), they reject belief, even after being exposed to what should be irrefutable proof, (and only God knows whether or not this is true in an individuals case or not) But, it is implied that before the end times, during the end times, that those living then will have "no excuse" for their unbelief, then they might go to hell, for rejecting God, after experiencing what should have been irrefutable proof (and like I said God is only one who knows this) so...

God Bless!

 

[quatona]

So, how would you dispose of the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Genghis Khans and the Pol Pots, the serial killers and the mass murderers of our times and previous?

God could transform them into sinless beings, just like he does with those that end up in heaven.

In the end, justice will be done, depend on it.

Well, that may be consolace for those who feel that justice is an end in itself.

 

[Strivax]

So, how would you dispose of the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Genghis Khans and the Pol Pots, the serial killers and the mass murderers of our times and previous?

God could transform them into sinless beings, just like he does with those that end up in heaven.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. We shall be required to answer for our wrongs, or God is not just, and if not just, not good, and if not good, not God. The very process of becoming sinless requires the acknowledgement of our sinfulness, the acceptance of our own responsibility for that, the repentance of it, and the atonement for it. It is hard enough for ordinary, decent people to go through this process; for truly evil people, I fear it to be nigh on impossible.

In the end, justice will be done, depend on it.

Well, that may be consolace for those who feel that justice is an end in itself.

I can't believe that you think justice is not an end in itself. As soon as you relegate justice as expedient to some other end, it ceases to be justice, and becomes arbitrary caprice. Should we subvert justice to ideology? To political ambitions? To congenial theology? To just feeling good about our 'enlightenment'? I don't think so. To be justice, justice requires to be an end in itself, an ideal to strive for, and even if it is a goal we might never quite reach in this world, we can be absolutely certain that it is the adamantine justification for God's judgement in the next.

Best wishes, Strivax