Is Heaven reserved for the truly Evil?

[ThinkForYourself]

Heaven is supposed to be a place of eternal happiness.

But how can anyone be happy if one of their loved ones is in Hell being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if billions of people are being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if even one person is being tortured for all eternity?

To put this in perspective for the Christians on this site, Jesus is supposed to have suffered for mankind's sins. Yet God is planning on making people suffer, by definition, infinitely more than Jesus.

And if God changes my mind, or blanks that out, then it is not me in heaven, but rather some puppet.

So, only people who can take pleasure in torturing people for all eternity can be happy in heaven, and those are evil people.

 

[Rubiks]

No one is taking pleasure in people suffering for eternity.

Note that God has no obligation to save anyone, he could punish everyone for their sin, (just as good parents punish children for their misbehaviors) and still be perfectly just. Salvation is a free gift.

Also, i'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Hell is a torture chamber. That's seriously not what the early church taught and was really a later invention

 

[Strivax]

So, only people who can take pleasure in torturing people for all eternity can be happy in heaven, and those are evil people.

You don't have to be evil to be glad that criminals are jailed.

You do have to be credulous to think that primitive ideas of judgment, vindication, eternity and damnation are those that truly pertain.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

No one is taking pleasure in people suffering for eternity.

Note that God has no obligation to save anyone, he could punish everyone for their sin, (just as good parents punish children for their misbehaviors) and still be perfectly just. Salvation is a free gift.

Also, i'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Hell is a torture chamber. That's seriously not what the early church taught and was really a later invention

No, Hell is a place eternal torture according to the bible.

You have failed to address the fact that you will be happy while people are being tortured for eternity. How can anyone other than the truly evil make this claim?

From bible.org:Key Facts About Eternity

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).
(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).
(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).
Key Passages About Hell

(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).
(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).
(3) Hell is conscious torment.

• Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
• Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
• Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

• Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
• Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
• Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

 

[BL2KTN]

That whole hell is a place of torment thing is apparently going out of favor in Christian circles. That said, enjoy heaven while the fourteen year old girl who was gang-raped and killed sits in whatever version of hell you like, all because she was brought up Muslim.

 

[Inkfingers]

how can anyone be happy if one of their loved ones is in Hell being tortured for all eternity?

No one gets tortured in hell for all eternity.

In order to be tortured for all eternity, you need eternal life, but you only get eternal life if you are brought to Christ through God's gift of faith. If you are not brought to Christ through God's gift of faith, you cannot get eternal life.....and so you cannot be tortured for ever. The wages of sin is death, not eternal agony.

When the Bible says that the punishment is endless, it does not mean eternal torture. It means that you don't get a second chance - you are dead and you stay dead forever. THAT is what is endless, the 2nd death.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

You don't have to be evil to be glad that criminals are jailed.

It is obviously ridiculous to compare jail to eternal torture.

Try again.

 

[Strivax]

I wasn't comparing. Just making the point that a just and redemptive punishment is not necessarily 'a bad thing'. I tend to agree that there is no thought, word or deed that could possibly justify an eternity of torture, but I do not subscribe to the view that bad people with evil acts to answer for should escape without censure, even from a loving God, if He can at all be described as 'just'.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

No one is taking pleasure in people suffering for eternity.

If heaven is a place of happiness, then you would have to be able to take pleasure in knowing people are being tortured in the worst possible way for all eternity.

Note that God has no obligation to save anyone, he could punish everyone for their sin, (just as good parents punish children for their misbehaviors) and still be perfectly just. Salvation is a free gift.

Do I understand you to say you can take pleasure from knowing that people are being tortured for all eternity. Is this correct?

Also, i'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Hell is a torture chamber. That's seriously not what the early church taught and was really a later invention

Please see my earlier post quoting the bible about Hell.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I wasn't comparing. Just making the point that a just and redemptive punishment is not necessarily 'a bad thing'.

So making someone suffer infinitely more than any human has ever suffered isn't wrong?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

No one gets tortured in hell for all eternity.

That's not what the bible says. Please see post #4 with the appropriate biblical quotes.

Or is the bible wrong?

 

[Inkfingers]

That's not what the bible says. Please see post #4 with the appropriate biblical quotes.

Or is the bible wrong?

None of them say that the suffering is endless. It says that the means of suffering is endless, and that the penality (kolasis, in the greek) is endless, but not the experience of suffering itself (as we need to be alive to suffer, and eternal life is what you get in Christ, whilst those who suffer are those who reject Christ and so cannot have eternal life).

 

[ThinkForYourself]

None of them say that the suffering is endless. It says that the means of suffering is endless, and that the penality (kolasis, in the greek) is endless, but not the experience of suffering itself (as we need to be alive to suffer, and eternal life is what you get in Christ, whilst those who suffer are those who reject Christ and so cannot have eternal life).

Er, the means of suffering (burning) is endless, and that penalty is endless, but you don't actually experience it?

WTH (What the Heck)?

 

[Strivax]

So making someone suffer infinitely more than any human has ever suffered isn't wrong?

So, how would you dispose of the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Genghis Khans and the Pol Pots, the serial killers and the mass murderers of our times and previous? In the end, justice will be done, depend on it.

Best wishes, Strivax

 

[Rajni]

Heaven is supposed to be a place of eternal happiness. But how can anyone be happy if one of their loved ones is in Hell being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if billions of people are being tortured for all eternity? How can anyone be happy if even one person is being tortured for all eternity?

I know I would find it very difficult.

To put this in perspective for the Christians on this site, Jesus is supposed to have suffered for mankind's sins. Yet God is planning on making people suffer, by definition, infinitely more than Jesus.

On top of that, the suffering Jesus went through wold be pointless if it didn't
do as advertised, which was to save 'the world', not merely some of it.

And if God changes my mind, or blanks that out, then it is not me in heaven, but rather some puppet.

True, this would go against God bringing to light that which is hidden. Since
ultimately everything is supposed to be revealed, that would have to include
making known the whereabouts of those who, supposedly, don't make it to
heaven.

The Spirit is supposed to be bringing us into all truth, not away from it by
engaging in cover-ups.


-

 

[Inkfingers]

Er, the means of suffering (burning) is endless, and that penalty is endless, but you don't actually experience it?

WTH (What the Heck)?

The fire is endless.
The suffering is not endless - because they don't get eternal life.
The penalty is endless - because you suffer, then it kills you and you don't come back.

 

[Paradoxum]

You don't have to be evil to be glad that criminals are jailed.

It would be rather strange for a parent to be fine with their 10 year old child going to prison for life because they stole a cookie.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

So, how would you dispose of the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Genghis Khans and the Pol Pots, the serial killers and the mass murderers of our times and previous? In the end, justice will be done, depend on it.

Best wishes, Strivax

First, Hell is infinitely worse than anything any of these people did. Not just a little, but God is doing something infinitely worse than anything any of these people did.

Second, how do you know all of these people weren't saved? In which case you will be seeing them in Heaven, and they won't be punished at all, but rather will get to enjoy eternal happiness.

So, you apparently think Hitler, Pol Pot, et al, could deserve eternal happiness. Can you explain how this means "Justice will be done, depend on it"?

 

[Strivax]

It would be rather strange for a parent to be fine with their 10 year old child going to prison for life because they stole a cookie.

Indeed it would. But can you cite an example of this happening, anywhere, at any time? No one can, or should, defend an unjust punishment. But we can, and should, support justice bestowed, even while we might discuss around what justice is in general, and in any specific matter.

Best wishes, Strivax

 

[Syd the Human]

No one is taking pleasure in people suffering for eternity.

Note that God has no obligation to save anyone, he could punish everyone for their sin, (just as good parents punish children for their misbehaviors) and still be perfectly just. Salvation is a free gift.

Also, i'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Hell is a torture chamber. That's seriously not what the early church taught and was really a later invention

No one gets tortured in hell for all eternity.

In order to be tortured for all eternity, you need eternal life, but you only get eternal life if you are brought to Christ through God's gift of faith. If you are not brought to Christ through God's gift of faith, you cannot get eternal life.....and so you cannot be tortured for ever. The wages of sin is death, not eternal agony.

When the Bible says that the punishment is endless, it does not mean eternal torture. It means that you don't get a second chance - you are dead and you stay dead forever. THAT is what is endless, the 2nd death.

I wasn't comparing. Just making the point that a just and redemptive punishment is not necessarily 'a bad thing'. I tend to agree that there is no thought, word or deed that could possibly justify an eternity of torture, but I do not subscribe to the view that bad people with evil acts to answer for should escape without censure, even from a loving God, if He can at all be described as 'just'.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I really wish people would stop using the word "punishment" when it comes to this kind of debate. A punishment is used to correct behavior, so unless the afterlife is going to be exactly as it is now so god needs to correct a person's behavior...it's just vengeance on god's part. Since it is just vengeance he can't be all forgiving.

And, if what people are saying is correct and that hell is not unpleasant or tortures anyone then being a Christian is not necessary at all. You can be if it makes you happy, but that's the only function it serves. The same happiness could be found in any religion, as well as other things such as dedicating oneself to a cause (like Mothers Against Drunk Driving or something) or just trying to be the best person they can be. Or some other thing.