Is Heaven heaven if anyone's missing?

[FineLinen]

Imagine a fire-alarm going off at our place of work or wherever we are and we run outside and the register's taken. Some are not accounted for so, while we're naturally glad we survived, we are also affected by sadness.

God is love and we're meant to become more and more like Him, so we're intended to experience the same breadth, width, height and depth of love for all people as Jesus did.

To me, this means we won't ever be able to forget those we love or ignore their suffering or loss. God hasn't designed us to be able to indulge in our own bliss while a single sheep remains lost.

"We love because He first loved us". Christ never turned His back on tax-collectors or prostitutes or sinners of any kind. Indeed, He descended from the heavens and broke open the gates of Hades for them. Should we not also strive to do the same?

Knowing the extent of God's love should not make us oblivious to the fate of anyone. Shouldn't it rather enhance our love for everyone and encourage us to be kind and to seek the good of all?

We should not rest until "All things are made subject to Christ Jesus and God is all in all". This is the ultimate goal of creation and until it happens, God's work of creation and salvation remains unfinished.

All of heaven and earth yearns for the restoration of all things, and will continue to do so until God draws all things to himself, things in heaven and earth and under the earth alike.

Or is that just silly of heaven and earth and it should just grow a pair and learn to love Eternal Conscious Torture/Torment (ECT) instead?

"I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone. For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God – and that is impossible." ~William Barclay

 

[disciple Clint]

How does that work?
If your parents didn't make it, no one's would?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What happens when you compare memories with others?

I do not questions the methods or the success of those methods that God uses, for me if God does something it will be done perfectly.

 

[disciple Clint]

Wouldn't that involve deception?

interesting question. I do not think so, I forget things all the time am I deceiving myself? I think it is quite natural for people to forget, particularly unpleasant things.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Imagine a fire-alarm going off at our place of work or wherever we are and we run outside and the register's taken. Some are not accounted for so, while we're naturally glad we survived, we are also affected by sadness.

Imagine running out of the building and someone is sitting at their desk waving a piece of paper in an attempt to blow the smoke away from their face.

You ask, "What are you doing! Don't you hear the alarm? Doesn't the smoke tell you there is a fire and you need to leave?"

"Don't tell me I need to leave," they respond, "I think people are just making a big deal out of nothing!"

What do you do?

Well, if one follows the example of Universal SAlvation, you just walk out because you know somehow they won't die in the fire.

Right?

And I'll break this up in order to avoid being accused of long posts and walls of text.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

God is love and we're meant to become more and more like Him, so we're intended to experience the same breadth, width, height and depth of love for all people as Jesus did.

Only applies to those who have been born again.


Ephesians 3:14-19
King James Version

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Does Scripture distinguish between sinners and saints? Does the term saint have any meaning in Scripture that we might see a distinction drawn between them and other people/s?

Is every man, woman, and child a saint?


Continued...

 

[public hermit]

interesting question. I do not think so, I forget things all the time am I deceiving myself? I think it is quite natural for people to forget, particularly unpleasant things.

Maybe, it just seems once certain memories are select out of a set, the rest are going to become disjointed and nonsensical.

 

[P1LGR1M]

To me, this means we won't ever be able to forget those we love or ignore their suffering or loss. God hasn't designed us to be able to indulge in our own bliss while a single sheep remains lost.

No, He has been very clear that we warn every man.


Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


Jude 22-23
King James Version

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


We are also told that not all men are the sheep of Christ:


John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Continued...

 

[sawdust]

Well, if one follows the example of Universal SAlvation, you just walk out because you know somehow they won't die in the fire.

Right?

Of course not. You demand they believe as you do, throw them over your shoulder against their will, and carry them out to safety where they can continue to curse you to your face.

(sarcasm, just in case it's not clear)

 

[P1LGR1M]

"We love because He first loved us". Christ never turned His back on tax-collectors or prostitutes or sinners of any kind. Indeed, He descended from the heavens and broke open the gates of Hades for them. Should we not also strive to do the same?

So exactly how do the lost come to love God in the Lake of Fire?

And I am not sure how telling sinners they have no need to believe in Christ because all are going to be saved eventually anyway is showing love to the lost.

Love would be running back into the building to try to pull those left behind out. Not standing outside feeling sad because they are dying.

And I am not sure what Bible it is you are reading, but the fact that the Lord was around tax collectors and prostitutes and "sinners" doesn't change what else He said:


Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


Leaving out a large portion of Christ's teachings isn't breaking open the gates of Hades for anyone.

It isn't a good idea to tell the lost they will one day have life when that is never going to happen:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Of course not. You demand they believe as you do, throw them over your shoulder against their will, and carry them out to safety where they can continue to curse you to your face.

(sarcasm, just in case it's not clear)

It's clear. A false argument, but clear.

At least you can acknowledge that they are rejecting the salvation the Lord is offering them.

That is a start, at least.

The fact is this: the Lord is the Good Shepherd, and at no time has He ever claimed to go in search of goats. The goats will be separated from the sheep, and they will go into everlasting punishment. They will never see life:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.



God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Knowing the extent of God's love should not make us oblivious to the fate of anyone. Shouldn't it rather enhance our love for everyone and encourage us to be kind and to seek the good of all?

Yes. We should know better than anyone the reality of the judgment that is coming upon those who know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of Christ.

Not behave like hippies and think love is the only element of Scripture we should ever tell people about.

We should tell them what Scripture actually teaches, and not a feel-good message that is nothing more than pulling the wool over the eyes of the blind.

We cannot walk past that person in the burning building. We cannot stand outside and say, "Sure is a shame they are dying."


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

We should not rest until "All things are made subject to Christ Jesus and God is all in all". This is the ultimate goal of creation and until it happens, God's work of creation and salvation remains unfinished.

Oh, you're speaking of the Eternal State, where there will only be those who are Christ's?


1 Corinthians 15:22-23
King James Version

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


The lost won't be in God, because they will never see life. They do not belong to Christ. They will be told to depart:


Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Not sure Christ viewing these people as cursed really carries this idea that Christ is going to go and throw these goats on His shoulder.

He will turn them away and send them into everlasting fire and then go and collect them?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

All of heaven and earth yearns for the restoration of all things, and will continue to do so until God draws all things to himself, things in heaven and earth and under the earth alike.

Then I guess the old "Oh, so God is going to force people" argument should be put to the side, right?

I mean, if people reject Christ and God draws them, He is forcing them, right?

But we run into another problem with the idea all things in heaven and earth will be drawn to God:


Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


And it's the same problem Universal Salvation is always going to have: the promise only belongs to those who are in Him.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Or is that just silly of heaven and earth and it should just grow a pair and learn to love Eternal Conscious Torture/Torment (ECT) instead?

Takes a lot more courage to tell people they are in danger than to give them a fuzzy message that encourages them to continue rejecting Christ.

There is quite a bit we don't like, but it isn't up to us to change what God's Word states.

That anyone "loves" the Doctrine of Eternal Judgment is a false argument. To slander those that take the responsibility of preaching the Gospel with vulgar sarcasm isn't befitting a child of God. Nor is pandering to emotion, either.

The lost are dead, and have no remedy for that death other than Christ:

John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

The world has been conceived and born into condemnation, and will remain condemned except they believe in Christ:


John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Those that reject Christ will never see life:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


If we preach the Gospel those who hear will never come to the conclusion of Universal Salvation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Of course not. You demand they believe as you do, throw them over your shoulder against their will, and carry them out to safety where they can continue to curse you to your face.

(sarcasm, just in case it's not clear)

I have to revisit this: you would not demand that the person believe the building was on fire, throw them over your shoulder against their will (if you could), and carry them out of the building to safety despite their cursing you?

Isn't that what I said Universal Salvation examples?

Do you not make my point for me?


God bless.

 

[Hmm]

that is nothing more than pulling the wool over the eyes of the blind.

You wouldn't need to pull the wool over the eyes of someone who already can't see. Your entire argument thereby collapses.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You wouldn't need to pull the wool over the eyes of someone who already can't see. Your entire argument thereby collapses.

No, it still stands unrebutted: that was the point, the lost are blind.

That's the incredible horror of Universal Salvation, it is lulling people to sleep rather than accomplishing what the Gospel is meant to do: create the fear of God in people.

Like fear is something foreign to Jesus Christ:


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.


Is this an obsolete teaching of Christ now that the enlightened among us have decided to rethink Hell?

How about this one:

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.


God bless.

 

[Hmm]

rather than accomplishing what the Gospel is meant to do: create the fear of God in people.

The best way to overcome your fear of God would be to trust Him.

 

[David's Harp]

Of course not. You demand they believe as you do, throw them over your shoulder against their will, and carry them out to safety where they can continue to curse you to your face.

(sarcasm, just in case it's not clear)

I have to revisit this: you would not demand that the person believe the building was on fire, throw them over your shoulder against their will (if you could), and carry them out of the building to safety despite their cursing you?

Isn't that what I said Universal Salvation examples?

Do you not make my point for me?

I read it as sawdust agreeing with you P1LGR1M.
I read a lot in these threads about free will and whether we really have it. But that's the thing that strikes me about Universal Restoration: you don't have any free will choice about whether you want to be part of Christ. To some that may be as scary as separation.
Maybe some of the universalists could explain that seeming lack of free will a bit more...

 

[sawdust]

I have to revisit this: you would not demand that the person believe the building was on fire, throw them over your shoulder against their will (if you could), and carry them out of the building to safety despite their cursing you?

Isn't that what I said Universal Salvation examples?

Do you not make my point for me?


God bless.

Sorry, David Harp read my post right. I was pretending to be a deluded universalist who has no understanding of evil and why it can't be converted and must be separated eternally.

I enjoy your posts. Keep it up.