Is Heaven heaven if anyone's missing?

[disciple Clint]

Imagine a fire-alarm going off at our place of work or wherever we are and we run outside and the register's taken. Some are not accounted for so, while we're naturally glad we survived, we are also affected by sadness.

God is love and we're meant to become more and more like Him, so we're intended to experience the same breadth, width, height and depth of love for all people as Jesus did.

To me, this means we won't ever be able to forget those we love or ignore their suffering or loss. God hasn't designed us to be able to indulge in our own bliss while a single sheep remains lost.

"We love because He first loved us". Christ never turned His back on tax-collectors or prostitutes or sinners of any kind. Indeed, He descended from the heavens and broke open the gates of Hades for them. Should we not also strive to do the same?

Knowing the extent of God's love should not make us oblivious to the fate of anyone. Shouldn't it rather enhance our love for everyone and encourage us to be kind and to seek the good of all?

We should not rest until "All things are made subject to Christ Jesus and God is all in all". This is the ultimate goal of creation and until it happens, God's work of creation and salvation remains unfinished.

All of heaven and earth yearns for the restoration of all things, and will continue to do so until God draws all things to himself, things in heaven and earth and under the earth alike.

Or is that just silly of heaven and earth and it should just grow a pair and learn to love Eternal Conscious Torture/Torment (ECT) instead?

Perhaps God removes our memory of those who are removed from the book of life.

 

[Valletta]

The OP's point is well taken, but a way around the problem of lost loved ones would be for God to wipe out our memories of them. The bottom line is that simply do not know who will be in Heaven or how many.

Yes, a logical thought.

 

[Hmm]

Perhaps God removes our memory of those who are removed from the book of life.

Or perhaps He updates the Book of Life with their names at the right time. Who said it was fixed?

 

[Strong in Him]

Imagine a fire-alarm going off at our place of work or wherever we are and we run outside and the register's taken. Some are not accounted for so, while we're naturally glad we survived, we are also affected by sadness.

God is love and we're meant to become more and more like Him, so we're intended to experience the same breadth, width, height and depth of love for all people as Jesus did.

To me, this means we won't ever be able to forget those we love or ignore their suffering or loss. God hasn't designed us to be able to indulge in our own bliss while a single sheep remains lost.

"We love because He first loved us". Christ never turned His back on tax-collectors or prostitutes or sinners of any kind. Indeed, He descended from the heavens and broke open the gates of Hades for them. Should we not also strive to do the same?

Knowing the extent of God's love should not make us oblivious to the fate of anyone. Shouldn't it rather enhance our love for everyone and encourage us to be kind and to seek the good of all?

We should not rest until "All things are made subject to Christ Jesus and God is all in all". This is the ultimate goal of creation and until it happens, God's work of creation and salvation remains unfinished.

All of heaven and earth yearns for the restoration of all things, and will continue to do so until God draws all things to himself, things in heaven and earth and under the earth alike.

Or is that just silly of heaven and earth and it should just grow a pair and learn to love Eternal Conscious Torture/Torment (ECT) instead?

I think that at the moment we see through a glass darkly and heaven, and who will be there, is different from what we imagine.

First of all, Scripture teaches that those who don't accept Jesus and God's amazing free gift, do not have eternal life. If they die without eternal life, they will perish. That is Scriptural, John 3:16, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12, Luke 13:3-5.
The problem, for us, is that we cannot be entirely sure who is saved and who isn't. The Bible does not talk of the possibility of the Spirit ministering to people in comas, or someone crying out to God after an accident. And I feel that is because we simply don't need to know. It doesn't stop us from guessing, and in some cases, making pronouncements; but it's not our business.
The Bible also doesn't answer questions like "supposing I find X isn't in heaven; will I be sad?" I don't think there is any sadness in heaven, so, no. But we cannot know the reason for that. Jesus said that we were to love him over our family members, and heaven will be full of those who love God - so maybe it won't matter? Maybe we won't have the family relationships that we had on earth - we already know there is no marriage in heaven - and we will just be with other people who loved, and love, God? Maybe we just won't have any memory of people who rejected and/or cursed God?
Maybe people that we think have rejected God now, have in fact only rejected the world's/media's/church's portrayal of God?

As for "loving ECT" - if that means that there is a belief that God deliberately tortures those who don't believe in and accept him, I don't believe it. And there is no reason at all why I should love a false picture of God.
God IS love, 1 John 4:8. God is also compassionate, merciful, kind, just and does not want anyone to perish, 2 Peter 3:9. He does not force us to accept him - love cannot be forced - but decided to give us free will and a choice about whether to believe and follow or not. For those of us who do believe, our task is to proclaim the Good News to others; to tell of the One who came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, and who gave his Son for us.
For me, questions like "who exactly will be saved?" "Are people predestined to be saved, or lost?" are academic and nothing to do with us. We are to preach the Gospel and then pray that the Spirit will enable people to accept and respond.

 

[Saint Steven]

You are very hard to please Comrade Alte. First you semi-accuse me of not quoting verses:



And in your next breath you accuse me of repeatedly posting verses:



You've left me in a bewildered (lost, confused, puzzled, uncertain, baffled, adrift, perplexed, disconcerted, at a loss, mystified, disoriented, bamboozled [Collins English Thesaurus]) state.

"... bamboozled..." LOL

That's solid gold right there.

 

[Saint Steven]

But would we be the same person in any meaningful sense if that was the case? Whatever the next life is, if I can't remember my loved ones from this life, I honestly wouldn't want it. Heaven would not be heaven for me if that was the case. This may sound extreme, but I would include animals and trees and hills in that too - all of creation!

Yes. It would always seem as if something was missing.

Some people's whole families would be in heaven. We would wonder why we didn't have a family in heaven. If we asked God or the angels, what would they say? "Forget about them, they don;t matter now." ???

Obviously, the members of the whole families in heaven seem to matter now, why not mine? What is being withheld from me? A nagging question that would never go away.

And after eons of nagging them, they may finally tell us that they have been in agony this whole time, and it continues as we speak. How would we feel? What would we do?

 

[Saint Steven]

... we simply don't need to know. ... it's not our business. ...

The fate of our family members is not our business? Wow.

"Move along, move along. Nothing to see here."

"We're on a need-to-know basis here, and you don't need to know."

Sounds more dystopian than heavenly. A nightmare.

 

[Saint Steven]

... there is no reason at all why I should love a false picture of God.

It sounds like we're on the same page in that respect. (scary thought, eh? - LOL)

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps God removes our memory of those who are removed from the book of life.

What happens when you compare memories with others?

 

[Strong in Him]

The fate of our family members is not our business? Wow.

I didn't say that.
I said that it's not always possible to know who is saved and who isn't. I was talking of someone who appeared to have rejected God being involved in a serious accident, or having a serious illness and being in a coma.
How would we know if they remained unsaved or if the Spirit ministers to them?
We don't - the Bible does not address that scenario.

 

[disciple Clint]

What happens when you compare memories with others?

If God does something He does it perfectly, the memories of everyone would agree.

 

[Saint Steven]

I didn't say that.
I said that it's not always possible to know who is saved and who isn't. I was talking of someone who appeared to have rejected God being involved in a serious accident, or having a serious illness and being in a coma.
How would we know if they remained unsaved or if the Spirit ministers to them?
We don't - the Bible does not address that scenario.

Okay, but how do you respond to the OP?
Will all your family members make it? (to the best of your knowledge)
You wouldn't notice if anyone was missing?

Saint Steven said: ↑
The fate of our family members is not our business? Wow.

 

[Saint Steven]

If God does something He does it perfectly, the memories of everyone would agree.

How does that work?
If your parents didn't make it, no one's would?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What happens when you compare memories with others?

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible relates that He will wipe every tear from our eyes. Wiping memories is not mentioned. Actually, we do know that EVERYONE will be in the Kingdom of Heaven, for God states in His Word that He will be All in all.

NO! We do not know that everyone will be in the kingdom of heaven."
As often occurs with UR posts one can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective vss, out-of-context.
What did Jesus say about "all in all?"

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Note, Jesus did NOT say everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said "NOT everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." Then Jesus says "MANY will say to me Lord, Lord" then brag about the "many wonderful works" they claim they have done. But Jesus will say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not someday by and by.

 

[Strong in Him]

Okay, but how do you respond to the OP?
Will all your family members make it? (to the best of your knowledge)
You wouldn't notice if anyone was missing?

I've responded to the OP.
I said that we only see though a glass darkly, now.
At the time of writing, I would say that my brothers, or some of them, aren't saved. But if they were to have sudden heart attacks, I have no idea whether they would call out to God, or be in a coma and be ministered to by the Holy Spirit. So if they were to die in a few days/weeks, I could not say for certain that they were unsaved.

As for noticing if anyone is missing; I said that maybe relationships aren't the same in heaven. We know that there is no marriage in heaven. So maybe we, who are told to love God more than our families, will not think "my brother/mum/sister isn't here". Maybe we will all just be one big family with God as our Father.
I don't know whether those in heaven have any consciousness/memory of their temporal, earthly lives at all.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, we watch you do it with the same wall of text every thread.

I quote scripture and folks like you blow it off as a "wall of text"
Here is one vs. maybe you can deal with only one vs.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
​

 

[public hermit]

If God does something He does it perfectly, the memories of everyone would agree.

Wouldn't that involve deception?

 

[public hermit]

I quote scripture and folks like you blow it off as a "wall of text"
Here is one vs. maybe you can deal with only one vs.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
​

Am I supposed to infer eternal torment from that? As has been pointed out a thousand times, the scriptures do not present a unified picture, which is why there are three basic positions: UR, ECT, and conditional immortality. People didn't dream up those possibilities; verses can be found to support all three. For some reason you refuse to acknowledge the ambiguity of the scriptural witnesses, which ensures that you and I cannot have a fruitful discussion.

I will await your reply assuring me it's "Nonsense!"

 

[Der Alte]

Am I supposed to infer eternal torment from that? As has been pointed out a thousand times, the scriptures do not present a unified picture, which is why there are three basic positions: UR, ECT, and conditional immortality. People didn't dream up those possibilities; verses can be found to support all three. For some reason you refuse to acknowledge the ambiguity of the scriptural witnesses, which ensures that you and I cannot have a fruitful discussion.
I will await your reply assuring me it's "Nonsense!"

You accuse me of posting a wall of text, but when I post only one vs. you tap dance around it without actually addressing it.
There is NOT one single verse in the entire NT where The Father, Himself or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which states unequivocally that all mankind will be saved, in this life, even after death.
I once said to a fellow passenger on an airplane who was reading the Bible. "I like that book, I like how it ends."
Let's take a look at the end of the book.

Revelation 22:11-12
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

Vs. 11 Ten more vss. to the end, no more salvation only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still" And don't ignore vs. 12.

 

[bling]

Imagine a fire-alarm going off at our place of work or wherever we are and we run outside and the register's taken. Some are not accounted for so, while we're naturally glad we survived, we are also affected by sadness.

God is love and we're meant to become more and more like Him, so we're intended to experience the same breadth, width, height and depth of love for all people as Jesus did.

To me, this means we won't ever be able to forget those we love or ignore their suffering or loss. God hasn't designed us to be able to indulge in our own bliss while a single sheep remains lost.

"We love because He first loved us". Christ never turned His back on tax-collectors or prostitutes or sinners of any kind. Indeed, He descended from the heavens and broke open the gates of Hades for them. Should we not also strive to do the same?

Knowing the extent of God's love should not make us oblivious to the fate of anyone. Shouldn't it rather enhance our love for everyone and encourage us to be kind and to seek the good of all?

We should not rest until "All things are made subject to Christ Jesus and God is all in all". This is the ultimate goal of creation and until it happens, God's work of creation and salvation remains unfinished.

All of heaven and earth yearns for the restoration of all things, and will continue to do so until God draws all things to himself, things in heaven and earth and under the earth alike.

Or is that just silly of heaven and earth and it should just grow a pair and learn to love Eternal Conscious Torture/Torment (ECT) instead?

If being “rescued” is all there is to it, then why spend any time here on this messed up world?

We, personal intentional cause of the huge fire, thus creating a huge need to be rescued and providing a means to be rescued, does allow some of the most suborned people on earth to humbly accept God’s Love (charitable rescue) as pure undeserved charity (we intentionally started the fire).

If for what ever reason we decide to: not humble ourselves, not like what God is doing, not be a part of those humble people being rescued and not want to be a rescuer ourselves, we can stay and burn up/ be annihilated (it is our choice).