Is god willing to prevent evil but not able to?

[razeontherock]

So are you claiming god went to sodom and told them to stop?

They knew they were rebelling against G-d. If you're going to take this story literally, you also need to put it in perspective with the flood. What's the time frame here? How many generations, away from the only people to survive?

Either that or you need to look at it all as myth with moral. Your current line of thought here is self-deceptive to an extreme.

 

[razeontherock]

As for manipulation... Why do you believe... or rather why do you not believe? Because it will mean you are going to hell otherwise.

Nonsense! You would do well to focus on this one issue and see it through, as this is the source of your confusion on the many other issues you blindly wade into. This one will get right to the heart of the matter.

 

[contango]

So your parents told you of said rules right? There was no bible, there was no 10 commandments when god did this. So it was his ignorance to not even tell the people what they were doing was wrong. Or was burning them alive and sending them to hell a way for him to tell them? Such a loving act...

To equate it with your analogy it'd be like your parents grounding you, and when you ask why, they can makes some b.s. about you doing something you weren't suppose to when you were 8. It'd make no sense then, why does it make sense to you now?

My parents never explicitly sat me down and told me not to take prunes out of the fridge. But when I was caught taking a prune from the fridge I instinctively knew it was wrong, despite barely being 2 years old.

And this is just one example, the most common granted, but there are numerous examples of god slaying people for them not doing what he wanted them to. Which again reiterates the idea of God not really giving us free will.

Why does the fact that choices have consequences mean we don't have the freedom to choose? If I choose to leap off a cliff I know the chances are I'll be dead when I hit the bottom. If I choose to sleep with someone who is HIV-positive and don't use any protection I know there's a significant chance I'll end up HIV-positive afterwards. If I choose to put wet fingers in a light bulb socket I know it's going to hurt. But I still have the freedom to do any of those things, I just have to be willing to accept the consequences as well. What you're describing is freedom without responsibility.

God: you can do what ever you want and what ever you feel. But abide by these rules less I kill you outright.

Where is the freedom?

As I mentioned above. How is your objection any different to being told you can do whatever you want but if you stick wet fingers in a light bulb socket you'll fry?

 

[DwarfJuggler]

Well probably because you're applying a supernatural entity smiting you for your own decisions when with out his smiting you would otherwise have gone on living. You didn't kill yourself by jumping off the bridge, you didn't electrocute yourself by sticking your fingers in. When you choose to "spill your seed" instead of impregnating the woman you're not choosing to be smited by god. Yet he did it anyways.

But god is able to judge when ever I suppose you will say. And the loving god will kill you outright for doing something he doesn't like. If you're content on believing such self protecting thought process then there's little I can do to persuade otherwise. (self protecting as in... Well why don't we die when we don't impreggers now? "God chooses not to, God chose to then." Yadda yadda. Just apply the God did it answer and all is safe.)

(just reread the post and the "you didn't kill yourself" parts may be confusing if you assuming I'm claiming you didn't kill yourself doing these acts. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that the act of spilling your seed and dieing was not self inflicted using free will as it was upon the idea of learning to fly off a bridge and trying to charge a battery using yourself as a makeshift wire.)

 

[EvanWilliams]

God gave us free will, which means we are free to bless God or to curse God, to do as God commands or to ignore God and do as we will.

When your only two choices are to follow God's will or suffer eternal torment, it isn't much of a free choice. Enough with the free will junk, it's nonsense.

Let's say I have a big stick and decide to hit you with it. That's an evil thing, and as a result of my evil you will suffer. So we might ask why God allows evil, why God allows suffering. From your perspective the evil and suffering are very real.

But the only way God can prevent that suffering is to deny my freedom to use the big stick in the first place. If we expect God to override our free will to make sure we never make the wrong decision, of what value is that free will in the first place? We weren't made as some kind of automated being that simply follow whatever the programming tells us, we were made as sentient beings with the freedom to choose.

We could also argue that perhaps God should intervene to prevent the greatest evils, and it's easy to make an emotional argument that God should prevent rape, genocide and the like. But that only raises the question of how much evil God should permit - if all of the most heinous crimes were eliminated because God prevented them we'd just be up in arms expecting God to prevent the things that just been moved up to the top of the "evil list". And before long we'd be right back with nobody having free will in case we did anything a little bit nasty to someone else.

Well if your God is omniscient and omnipotent, why would he create a Universe where anybody has to be killed, raped, starved, etc... knowing full well beforehand that it would happen? If God is omniscient and knows all that will happen beforehand, you have no free will. The two ideas are fundamentally incompatible. Sorry, but your argument is not logically cohesive at all although it is the standard fare used by Christians to address the problem of evil.

So ultimately it comes back to us. We can choose to do good, or we can choose to do evil, and either decision has consequences.

Peace,
-Evan Williams

 

[razeontherock]

Even, your own stance proves the fact you deny. Just because you can't fathom it doesn't make it false.

 

[EvanWilliams]

Razorback,

Normally I would reply to you with tact and civility, but given your baseless and insulting mode of "argument", if you can call that, that will not be the case.

Quite frankly, your reply is a shameless intellectual cop-out if I've ever heard one. What typically Christian arrogance on your part to assume an intellectual deficiency on my part and say that I am incapable of fathoming something simply because I see it as a system that makes no sense and pointed out the obvious flaws that you have blinded yourself to behind your lenses of faith. Furthermore, you provided nothing to back what you have said, only a bare assertion. Learn to debate, please.

Come back when you want to make an actual point and not make empty meaningless assertions laden with logical fallacies. I brought up logical points; you did not, resorting to baseless ad hominem attacks on my intellect. You lose. Thanks for playing.

Peace and love above all else,
-Evan Williams

 

[razeontherock]

Sorry but everything you wrote is just plain wrong. You profess your own lack of understanding when you post "if your God is omniscient and omnipotent, why would he create a Universe where anybody has to ..."

In your own words, you are stating you can't fathom it, as I said. That you conflate this with ad hominem on my part is rather disturbing. All in all, you display nothing i choose to debate, so I'll be denying your request to do so.

I made valid observations; you can continue to stop your ears and go "la la la I can't hear you" as long as you like. Or at least as long as you live.

 

[EvanWilliams]

Razorback,

Again, nothing to back your assertions, just meaningless drivel.

Asking a question of "why" is not a display of ignorance, but rather an attempt to probe and question your belief system. My question was a perfectly valid one that betrays no ignorance on my part, but rather a suggestion that the motives of God in creating things the way he did are pretty questionable. I understand your belief system quite well, thank you. I was born and raised in it, believed it for about eighteen years, and then decided that imaginary friends were not worth basing my life around. If God disapproves of my lifestyle, then he can come down here and tell me himself, but I will not base my life around a 2000+-year old tome full of fallacies and contradictions and believe in a magical sky-daddy for which there is no evidence and whose second coming is conveniently unknown.

Furthermore, your attempt to discredit my arguments by saying that I do not understand your belief system without saying anything else to back it up is an ad hominem. Not a malicious one I wager, but an arrogantly placed logical fallacy nonetheless. At the very least, you are making a very weak and laughable strawman argument against me by simply asserting that I do not understand.

Valid observations? That's a laugh. You made nothing of the sort. When you want to say something that has some substance and not simply say I don't understand, then I will be happy to entertain whatever you have to say. Until then, I am not convinced by, "blah blah blah you just don't understand" because that is a bloody cop-out.

My ears are not stopped; it's just that everything you have said to me so far is meaningless baseless tripe.

 

[bling]

Well probably because you're applying a supernatural entity smiting you for your own decisions when with out his smiting you would otherwise have gone on living. You didn't kill yourself by jumping off the bridge, you didn't electrocute yourself by sticking your fingers in. When you choose to "spill your seed" instead of impregnating the woman you're not choosing to be smited by god. Yet he did it anyways.

But god is able to judge when ever I suppose you will say. And the loving god will kill you outright for doing something he doesn't like. If you're content on believing such self protecting thought process then there's little I can do to persuade otherwise. (self protecting as in... Well why don't we die when we don't impreggers now? "God chooses not to, God chose to then." Yadda yadda. Just apply the God did it answer and all is safe.)

(just reread the post and the "you didn't kill yourself" parts may be confusing if you assuming I'm claiming you didn't kill yourself doing these acts. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that the act of spilling your seed and dieing was not self inflicted using free will as it was upon the idea of learning to fly off a bridge and trying to charge a battery using yourself as a makeshift wire.)

I have addressed this many times and can copy and paste a ton of answers that no one here has given yet.
First: Death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff.
God has power and is Love, but God quenches His own desires to provide the best opportunity for those that are just willing to fulfill their objective.
The objective is not to be sinless (we all sin so it is good that is not our objective). The objective is not to make this world heaven on earth, because it will never be that.
The objective is not to be “happy” this world is painfully tragic, but we can have joy in allowing God to work through us and share in His glory.
God is not trying to get something, but is just trying to give us the most powerful force in all universes, a power that even controls God (Godly type Love). This is no ordinary love, but a compelling, thought-out, decision type of Love.
Free will is not the gift or the great price, but just a little free will to make a very simple choice will enables us to obtain this huge power. So we do not have free will to do anything, but enough free will to mentally make the moral choice to accept God’s Love or reject His Love.
You ask and everyone else has asked at different times and in different ways: “why a most powerful Loving God would not put us all in a Garden of Eden type situation.” (You do not have to believe the Eden story literally). God addresses that question very early on with the Garden story.
The Garden type situation is a lousy place for humans to fulfill their objectives, while the tragic situation we are in today is the best.

 

[DwarfJuggler]

*passing torch off to evan if he so chooses*

Power knocked out via storm for almost 4 days. Lost urge to debate meaninglessly. Have fun! Your god ruined lots of food for 5000 people :'(. Wasteful.

 

[EvanWilliams]

*passing torch off to evan if he so chooses*

Power knocked out via storm for almost 4 days. Lost urge to debate meaninglessly. Have fun! Your god ruined lots of food for 5000 people :'(. Wasteful.

But he works in mysterious ways! It's all in his grand mastah plan that's totally flawless! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!?!? The ruining of food is TOTALLY necessary to bring about the end of t3h evilz!

 

[razeontherock]

But he works in mysterious ways!

Sorry but that's not in the Bible. So much for the all-knowing 21 year old's 18 years of mastery ...

"Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"

 

[EvanWilliams]

Sorry but that's not in the Bible. So much for the all-knowing 21 year old's 18 years of mastery ...

"Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"

I never professed myself to be all-knowing or wise; kindly cease putting words in my mouth so that you can twist what I say into some sort of weak self-reassuring confirmation of your scriptures. If all you're going to do is intentionally misrepresent what I say and attack a strawman, then this discussion is meaningless. You have yet to say anything of real substance; you just make bare assertions and quote Bible passages like a muppet. I said that I was raised as a Christian and studied the Bible extensively, and therefore do know what I am talking about to a reasonable extent so as to confer with others in a reasoned debate. I do not profess to have any "mastery" of any kind. Furthermore, the fact that you are older than I does not in itself, as I think you are implying, entitle you to any additional sagacity or intelligence.

I'm fully aware of that not being in the Bible; however, it is, at least in my dialogues with theists, the bread-and-butter response of Christians, that God has some nebulous mysterious plan that we cannot possibly understand, and that it only *looks* like his plan makes absolutely no sense because God is so complex. How convenient...

I was satirizing the intellectual dishonesty of such a statement, not referencing the Bible. I never said anything about that statement being in the Bible. It is quite obvious at this point that you have nothing reasoned or intelligent to say, so you are resorting to twisting my words, a tactic that betrays your intellectual cowardice. This is the third time I have trounced your baseless assertions and misrepresentations of my statements. Care to try again?

 

[razeontherock]

No, I haven't twisted your words, neither am I interested in any dialogue above the level of your sincerity. You do in fact repeatedly present yourself as some sort of expert, while you simultaneously betray a lack of even the most fundamental understanding, vis:

"If God is omniscient and knows all that will happen beforehand, you have no free will. The two ideas are fundamentally incompatible."


I could take the time to do more than point out the error and actually correct it, but I am commanded not to. See that's the real difference between us here; you're talking about things that exist only in your mind. I'm talking about One I know. Until you come to that realization there's nothing else meaningful I can do for you.

I'm fully aware of that not being in the Bible; however, it is, at least in my dialogues with theists, the bread-and-butter response of Christians,

I was satirizing the intellectual dishonesty of such a statement

This was but one of many blatant violation of the rules, which you could be reported for. I do agree w/ you that this particular train of thought is slanderous of G-d's character.

 

[EvanWilliams]

No, I haven't twisted your words, neither am I interested in any dialogue above the level of your sincerity. You do in fact repeatedly present yourself as some sort of expert, while you simultaneously betray a lack of even the most fundamental understanding, vis:

I never presented myself an expert; I made no claim of having any "expert" status on anything. You are again twisting my words in spite of your claims of "NUH UH" to make me appear conceited. I was simply saying that I have read your holy book and know what it has to say. I have in no way presented myself as an "expert".

"If God is omniscient and knows all that will happen beforehand, you have no free will. The two ideas are fundamentally incompatible."

Explain to me how those two ideas are even remotely compatible. If God created me knowing what my path would be ahead of time, then I don't really have a free will. My decisions are bound to the personality and traits that God gave me. If God knows the future, free will is illusory. It is you who displays a lack of fundamental understanding of logic.

I could take the time to do more than point out the error and actually correct it, but I am commanded not to. See that's the real difference between us here; you're talking about things that exist only in your mind. I'm talking about One I know. Until you come to that realization there's nothing else meaningful I can do for you.

I suppose we are at a stalemate then. My logical objections to your religion are what you perceive to only exist in my mind, a nonsensical statement and frankly pathetic defence mechanism (again a bare assertion on your part). And you claim to "know" of this One you speak of. Knowledge eliminates the need for faith. Are you saying that you have direct knowledge of God? Do you directly converse with him? If so, then why do you need faith? Knowledge and faith are fundamentally incompatible states of mind. You cannot positively know something and have faith in it (in the dictionary sense) at the same time.

Peace,
-Evan Williams

 

[razeontherock]

E: I was simply saying that I have read your holy book and know what it has to say. I have in no way presented myself as an "expert".

R: that IS to present yourself as an expert. Until you humble yourself to the point of recognition that you can read it's words while gleaning ZERO understanding, I think a strong case can be made for reading it possibly doing more harm than good. I think we all have a mixed bad in that one.

E: If God created me knowing what my path would be ahead of time, then I don't really have a free will. My decisions are bound to the personality and traits that God gave me.

R: At least you've opened up enough to be able to see your error. G-d's omniscience does not equate to your last statement here, not at all. This may be as simple as definition of terms, but I suspect a deeper understanding also comes to bear. Character is shaped by action. We can exercise self-discipline to do the right thing, and over time it becomes easer, for example.

E: My logical objections to your religion are what you perceive to only exist in my mind, a nonsensical statement and frankly pathetic defence mechanism

R: Evan, you consistently present yourself as an expert. Until you can see that and repent, you're just going to spin your wheels. What I'm saying is you're expressing your own thoughts, which is a direct counter to your claim of understanding Scripture.

E: And you claim to "know" of this One you speak of. Knowledge eliminates the need for faith. Are you saying that you have direct knowledge of God? Do you directly converse with him? If so, then why do you need faith? Knowledge and faith are fundamentally incompatible states of mind. You cannot positively know something and have faith in it (in the dictionary sense) at the same time.

R: Simple resolution: the dictionary definition is irrelevant. What's the Biblical definition of Faith, and how could you possibly consider using anything else in a discussion like this? Following that definition, your statement here is quite false, and again shows the depth of your lack of insight on this subject.

If you truly want to understand any of this, you'll have to humble yourself to become like a child, a babe in Christ, desiring the sincere milk of the Word as a starting point.

 

[EvanWilliams]

E: I was simply saying that I have read your holy book and know what it has to say. I have in no way presented myself as an "expert".

R: that IS to present yourself as an expert. Until you humble yourself to the point of recognition that you can read it's words while gleaning ZERO understanding, I think a strong case can be made for reading it possibly doing more harm than good. I think we all have a mixed bad in that one.

So you're basically saying that your God is capable of creating the cosmos, but seems incapable of generating a holy text that doesn't require a squad of theologians to interpret?

I read the Bible with an open mind alongside theological interpretations. It just didn't convince me; that is what I am saying. I have also genuinely prayed to God to guide me to him, but never felt his presence as many claim to. Finally, when I look at the world around me, events seem to be more governed by the will of man and random chance than the intervening hand of a loving God. That is why I do not believe. What about that sentiment belies a false sense of mastery?

E: If God created me knowing what my path would be ahead of time, then I don't really have a free will. My decisions are bound to the personality and traits that God gave me.

R: At least you've opened up enough to be able to see your error. G-d's omniscience does not equate to your last statement here, not at all. This may be as simple as definition of terms, but I suspect a deeper understanding also comes to bear. Character is shaped by action. We can exercise self-discipline to do the right thing, and over time it becomes easer, for example.

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other; here is what I am saying.

Let us assume for the sake of argument that God has direct knowledge of the future and is directly responsible for the creation of the universe. This means that God created the universe knowing full well beforehand that you and I would be having this conversation someday and that I would be an atheist. I am assuming that you would agree with these statements so far as most Christians believe God to be omniscient, having direct knowledge of all things past, present, and future.

I'm saying that although, yes, maybe I am in control of my own actions, those actions are still predetermined by the way God created the universe. So, really, it was destined all along under an omniscient God that I would come to be an atheist. He created the universe knowing beforehand that I would have the lack of belief that I do. So, the free will argument fails in this respect.

E: My logical objections to your religion are what you perceive to only exist in my mind, a nonsensical statement and frankly pathetic defence mechanism

R: Evan, you consistently present yourself as an expert. Until you can see that and repent, you're just going to spin your wheels.

You are engaging in question-begging by assuming the need for repentance in your argument.

What I'm saying is you're expressing your own thoughts, which is a direct counter to your claim of understanding Scripture.

Uh... well... yeah... I am expressing my thoughts regarding the scripture... y'know, that thing theologians and priests make a career out of?

Oh, wait... that's right, your God doesn't want anyone thinking for themselves, unless they happen agree with him of course... dangerous habit, that.

E: And you claim to "know" of this One you speak of. Knowledge eliminates the need for faith. Are you saying that you have direct knowledge of God? Do you directly converse with him? If so, then why do you need faith? Knowledge and faith are fundamentally incompatible states of mind. You cannot positively know something and have faith in it (in the dictionary sense) at the same time.

R: Simple resolution: the dictionary definition is irrelevant. What's the Biblical definition of Faith, and how could you possibly consider using anything else in a discussion like this? Following that definition, your statement here is quite false, and again shows the depth of your lack of insight on this subject.

How convenient that you are free to define faith however you choose. Cheekiness aside, are you saying that you know God to exist, but have faith in him more in a trust sense than regarding the question of his existence?

My understanding of faith is twofold:

1. Believing in a concept beyond what is warranted by existing evidence.

2. Putting trust in a person or deity.

I was taking issue with the coexistence of definition 1 and claiming to have direct interaction with God. Definition 2 admittedly is still compatible. If you have a different definition or feel that I am oversimplifying the concept, do share.

If you truly want to understand any of this, you'll have to humble yourself to become like a child, a babe in Christ, desiring the sincere milk of the Word as a starting point.

Children lack critical thinking skills and the ability to make rational inquiries. So, I suppose that statement makes sense. Like I said, if God wants non-believers to be persuaded by the Bible, perhaps he should have written it a little less cryptically and not filled it full of scientific, geographic, and historic inaccuracies.

Peace,
-Evan Williams

 

[razeontherock]

E: So you're basically saying that your God is capable of creating the cosmos, but seems incapable of generating a holy text that doesn't require a squad of theologians to interpret?

I read the Bible with an open mind alongside theological interpretations.

R: I didn't say that at all. "Theology" is a word you won't find in the Bible. Nix the squad of theologians and start over, with the open heart you profess. The Pharisees of religiosity are the exact opposite of an open heart, and a little leaven leavens the whole lump. You probably won't be able to read a word of it for years. Maybe take up skiing this winter? The worship environment blows away stained glass windows ...

Children do not AT ALL lack critical thinking skills nor the ability to make rational inquiries!

Definition of Faith, to someone who claims to know Scripture as you, is Hebrews 11:1. but just because you can read the words don't think you grasp their weight - -

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

That blows much of your argument out of the water, and your obvious need for repentance would take care of the rest. No assumptions necessary Evan!

 

[bling]

But he works in mysterious ways! It's all in his grand mastah plan that's totally flawless! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!?!? The ruining of food is TOTALLY necessary to bring about the end of t3h evilz!

You could address my post 30.