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Maybe you can explain why you don’t think God is glorified in all that He does.
Friend, naturally as a Catholic I believe in Aquinas's Five Ways. The assertion was that everything has an affect on something else, not that everything that occurs was caused by something before it. The former is false, the latter is true (except in the case of God, who is eternal).Hammster said, in response to Zoidar's, "Ah, then I used it correctly. I don't believe God forordains everything.": "Then He foreordains nothing." Already we see here the relevance of Cause-and-Effect. Then when Zoidar responds, "why?", Hammster says: "...everything has an affect on something else. We may not understand how, but there’s always a connection." You still see no relevance to Cause-and-Effect? Every effect is caused, and there is only one First Cause.
How about this (@zoidar ):
He sees all things unfolded before Him.
He may whip out His microscope and examine every single crease...and zoom in even more and see all the particles that make up the creases.
But does He do this? Or does He just Speak on certain significant folds?
Like saying, "Look at this fold. It is important, because the weave of its fabric meets with this other fabric as they enfold."
Take the significant story about Jacob and Esau. Didn't the Creator state in advance that "The elder shall serve the younger"?
But does this mean that He orchestrated or even magnified every particular that Rebecca herself weaved into the narrative?
What if she simply heard the revelation of the fold (that the elder shall serve the younger) and took it upon herself to manifest it in the context of her own life?
And when this occurred did the Creator maybe decide that this would be an acceptable weave within the pattern He envisioned?
When you become an adult, you put aside your childish ways.
You may find many of us Reformed to be less rigidly encased in your notion of determinism than you realize. I can't speak for Hammster, but note: God even allows prayers to sway him, he put Moses in place for that very purpose. So Cause-and-effect, in which God is involved, is not necessarily time-sequence dependent, but cause dependent. Have you ever prayed concerning an outcome that you know has already happened, but you don't know what that outcome was? Do you think God is not swayed by such prayers too, and sometimes grants those prayers, from before they were prayed? To timeless God, is OUR "before and after" really relevant?Friend, naturally as a Catholic I believe in Aquinas's Five Ways. The assertion was that everything has an affect on something else, not that everything that occurs was caused by something before it. The former is false, the latter is true (except in the case of God, who is eternal).
I have no objections to any of this.You may find many of us Reformed to be less rigidly encased in your notion of determinism than you realize. I can't speak for Hammster, but note: God even allows prayers to sway him, he put Moses in place for that very purpose. So Cause-and-effect, in which God is involved, is not necessarily time-sequence dependent, but cause dependent. Have you ever prayed concerning an outcome that you know has already happened, but you don't know what that outcome was? Do you think God is not swayed by such prayers too, and sometimes grants those prayers, from before they were prayed? To timeless God, is OUR "before and after" really relevant?
God controls that which He wants to control.I studied this briefly in a theological course.
Yes, God is most likely omnipotent. However, even if He has the potential to do anything, it doesn't mean he would. The beauty of Creation is Free Will, and if God was to assert control over everything, humans wouldn't have the ability to choose their own paths.
If God had the ability to do anything, He would've prevented the original sin. The original sin is, as I see it, the ultimate first test of free will. Without free will, there would be no grounds for evil- as God is only good. If there is no evil, there is nothing to compare goodness to and there is no way for humans to live lives that improve and grow. There would be no ultimate incentive to learn goodness through God if everything was peachy.
This is a very big theological question with a lot of different stances, so I'd be interested in hearing what other people have to say.
Thanks for the question. I appreciate it! Maybe it was predestined for you to ask this question, to bring attention to the real matter. Who knows?
That's the point of the thread, not which is true, but that all Christians believe God is omnipotent. Many times have people "thrown in the card" (Swedish expression?) in discussion "I believe in an omnipotent God" implying I do not, because I believe in free will etc. That bothers me. I just want people to understand and accept that just because we see differently on matters like predestination, foreknowledge, free will, election doesn't mean we don't believe in an omnipotent God. So there you have the reason.
When Christ was on the cross, was He punished for His sins? No, of course not. He was punished for sins of others. Sin deserves punishment. It shows God’s justice. And God is glorified when He shows any of His attributes.
Maybe you can explain why you don’t think God is glorified in all that He does.
Thanks. First question: is God glorified when punishing sin?Ok here we go. God is NOT glorified by punishing Jesus! I say this again. God is NOT glorified by punishing Jesus! Jesus, the Son of God was innocent, sinless, and WILLINGLY he bore the sins of the world, our sins, which he didn't have to do, but in love and mercy chose to do. This gives God GLORY! The LOVE of God was manifested in one HOLY sacrifice, His only Son and He was resurrected for our salvation to the JOY of God and and His glory.
This is the GOSPEL, the GOOD news! And they are good news indeed!
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." /John 3:16-17
Thanks. First question: is God glorified when punishing sin?
Hmm. So you don’t think His anger at sin is justified?No!
God is glorified by saving people from damnation, not from "putting" people there.
Hmm. So you don’t think His anger at sin is justified?
So you don’t think the justice of God brings Him glory?Justified, not glorified.
So you don’t think the justice of God brings Him glory?
The punishment does, though. It shows God’s hatred for sin. The Son took our punishment as if He has sinned. If you study the cross, all of God’s attributes were on display. And all of His attributes bring Him glory. So Christ being punished for our sin brings Glory to the Father.It's kind of a tricky question. I would say, bringing about justice glorifies God. The punishment itself does not.
So Christ being punished for our sin brings Glory to the Father.
The punishment is God’s just action against sin.Yes, Jesus taking our punishment brings God glory, not the punishment.
As you’ve said, I do not agree. The problem is that most professing born again Christians are not yet born again. I know in my own life I thought I was born again around 1974. It was wasn’t until around 1990 that it actually happened. There is one truth and all who are in Christ must be taught directly from Him.I doubt you agree, but two born again Christians can understand scripture totally different. One reason we have all these churches and denominations.
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