Is God just choosing one over the another?????????

[JLB777]

Hate CAN mean hate... context is the key of course.

Do you believe God "hated" Pharaoh?

 

[Ken Rank]

Do you believe God "hated" Pharaoh?

No, and in fact, the Hebrew gives a better picture of God's use of him. Where we read "hardened Pharaoh's heart" it should read "strengthen," as in "an already existing condition." So no, definitely not hate.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you believe God "hated" Pharaoh?

For looking into later , maybe: would you hate anyone who had power over and contiually and routinely caused pain, sorrow and suffering, hunger and thirst, and unjust conditions
to your family , children friends and all the people you know in life ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No God does not give faith in Christ to believe to all men. If what you say was true all would believe , but they do not believe cause they were not granted to come to Christ. John 6 clearly says this.

Where does that verse say God gives some faith and withholds faith from others? It says he grants some to come to Christ. On what basis? Ever thought about that? What if it’s not arbitrary (nothing He does is arbitrary.)

 

[FredVB]

Is God just choosing one over another?

No. Scriptures show one who will look, as I do, this is not the case.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is for us to come to repentance with which there is restoration in faith, through Christ.

For looking into later, maybe: would you hate anyone who had power over and continually and routinely caused pain, sorrow and suffering, hunger and thirst, and unjust conditions to your family, children, friends and all the people you know in life?

We are in a cursed world, which is so from ongoing sin, which is shown to be rebellion against Yahweh God, which we all have been taking part in. These sufferings are consequences of that. It is not God choosing that for us, but allows such in the light of ongoing rebellion. The real deliverance is in everlasting life with promise of what comes after, available to all but only through that repentance with which there is restoration in faith, through Christ. This is for us to choose, those who resist will become hardened to that.

 

[sdowney717]

Is God just choosing one over another?

No. Scriptures show one who will look, as I do, this is not the case.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is for us to come to repentance with which there is restoration in faith, through Christ.



We are in a cursed world, which is so from ongoing sin, which is shown to be rebellion against Yahweh God, which we all have been taking part in. These sufferings are consequences of that. It is not God choosing that for us, but allows such in the light of ongoing rebellion. The real deliverance is in everlasting life with promise of what comes after, available to all but only through that repentance with which there is restoration in faith, through Christ. This is for us to choose, those who resist will become hardened to that.

Being born again is not your personal choice to make.
https://www.the-highway.com/Born-Againism_Ochs.html

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Being born again is not your personal choice to make.
https://www.the-highway.com/Born-Againism_Ochs.html

So does this mean you think it is passive? Something that happens to one whether one will or not?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Being born again is not your personal choice to make.
https://www.the-highway.com/Born-Againism_Ochs.html

Sure it is.

I like this site:

https://soteriology101.com/2015/07/14/whose-soteriology-is-really-man-centered-and-humanistic/

How about sticking to BIBLICAL scripture and verses instead of going to what MEN believe?

Here are the steps to being born again:

1. We must realize God exists and that we are sinners in need of knowing God in order to be saved.
Romand 3:10

2. Jesus has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
Titus 2:11

3. If we believe in Jesus, we enter into His earthly Kingdom and then His heavenly Kingdom.
Acts 16:31

So, understand that we are sinners.
Know that we need to be saved.
Jesus is our salvation...
If we believe in Him.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Sure it is.

I like this site:

https://soteriology101.com/2015/07/14/whose-soteriology-is-really-man-centered-and-humanistic/

How about sticking to BIBLICAL scripture and verses instead of going to what MEN believe?

Here are the steps to being born again:

1. We must realize God exists and that we are sinners in need of knowing God in order to be saved.
Romand 3:10

2. Jesus has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
Titus 2:11

3. If we believe in Jesus, we enter into His earthly Kingdom and then His heavenly Kingdom.
Acts 16:31

So, understand that we are sinners.
Know that we need to be saved.
Jesus is our salvation...
If we believe in Him.

Of coarse it is our choice. We(not God) make the choice of heaven or hell. His part is to understand us as to what we really believe. Our words may say one thing when the truth may be something quite different. Saying we believe in Christ does not guarentee it is truth. God knows who truly believes as Je also knows our prayers (or our lack of prayers).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Of coarse it is our choice. We(not God) make the choice of heaven or hell. His part is to understand us as to what we really believe. Our words may say one thing when the truth may be something quite different. Saying we believe in Christ does not guarentee it is truth. God knows who truly believes as Je also knows our prayers (or our lack of prayers).

Of course.
But John Calvin taught that GOD chooses,,,thus totally changing the character of God. As if God would create humans just to sent them to hell. He also lived in 1,500 AD.

And also more modern movements, as if God could change His mind.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Of course.
But John Calvin taught that GOD chooses,,,thus totally changing the character of God. As if God would create humans just to sent them to hell. He also lived in 1,500 AD.

And also more modern movements, as if God could change His mind.

So it would seem Rev. Calvin served a God who made many m

Of course.
But John Calvin taught that GOD chooses,,,thus totally changing the character of God. As if God would create humans just to sent them to hell. He also lived in 1,500 AD.

And also more modern movements, as if God could change His mind.

Rev. Calvin kinda has a very odd view of God. A God who creates some men just to send them to hell. It makes a bit of a mockery of John 3:16. While I do understand that God knows the future, I do not believe He made any man to spend eternity in the lake of fire. I mean He gave the life of His only begotten Son that no man need perish. God leaves our destination as a choice to us. Sadly many choose eternal damnation by making themself as thier god.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So it would seem Rev. Calvin served a God who made many m

Rev. Calvin kinda has a very odd view of God. A God who creates some men just to send them to hell. It makes a bit of a mockery of John 3:16. While I do understand that God knows the future, I do not believe He made any man to spend eternity in the lake of fire. I mean He gave the life of His only begotten Son that no man need perish. God leaves our destination as a choice to us. Sadly many choose eternal damnation by making themself as thier god.

Amen to that....
Which is exactly what a loving and just God would do.

 

[FredVB]

Is God just choosing one over another?

No. Scriptures show one who will look, as I do, this is not the case.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is for us to come to repentance with which there is restoration in faith, through Christ.

We are in a cursed world, which is so from ongoing sin, which is shown to be rebellion against Yahweh God, which we all have been taking part in. These sufferings are consequences of that. It is not God choosing that for us, but allows such in the light of ongoing rebellion. The real deliverance is in everlasting life with promise of what comes after, available to all but only through that repentance with which there is restoration in faith, through Christ. This is for us to choose, those who resist will become hardened to that.

Being born again is not your personal choice to make.
"Born-Againism" by Richard Ochs

I didn't go off site to find out. Since we were talking about what is said in the Bible, I use that, and any further insight you would have me know from that site, on what is said in the Bible, you could just share yourself, without going off site being needed for that. Links can be useful, in a way for being like footnotes, with sources and backup information to be shown for that. But not so for discussing what we have the Bible for. Say it yourself.

You say we have no choice. I say your Calvinist statement is wrong. Yahweh does choose us, but not without our responsibility to choose. This choosing is shown all through the Bible, Yahweh is just, but there isn't justice in condemning any without them ever having any choice.

You necessarily disregard 2 Peter 3:9,
The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[BBAS 64]

I didn't go off site to find out. Since we were talking about what is said in the Bible, I use that, and any further insight you would have me know from that site, on what is said in the Bible, you could just share yourself, without going off site being needed for that. Links can be useful, in a way for being like footnotes, with sources and backup information to be shown for that. But not so for discussing what we have the Bible for. Say it yourself.

You say we have no choice. I say your Calvinist statement is wrong. Yahweh does choose us, but not without our responsibility to choose. This choosing is shown all through the Bible, Yahweh is just, but there isn't justice in condemning any without them ever having any choice.

You necessarily disregard 2 Peter 3:9,
The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Good Day, Fred

No disregard here

The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Couple of question if I may on your understanding of the verse, kind of hard with out the fuller context.

But none the less... What is his promise?
The "us" and the "any" are both pronouns to what noun do they refer?
what does the "some count slowness" mean or represent?


Here is a fuller context:

2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In Him,

Bill

 

[FredVB]

You say we have no choice. I say your Calvinist statement is wrong. Yahweh does choose us, but not without our responsibility to choose. This choosing is shown all through the Bible, Yahweh is just, but there isn't justice in condemning any without them ever having any choice.

You necessarily disregard 2 Peter 3:9,
The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Couple of question if I may on your understanding of the verse, kind of hard with out the fuller context.

But none the less... What is his promise?
The "us" and the "any" are both pronouns to what noun do they refer?
what does the "some count slowness" mean or represent?


Here is a fuller context:

2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Why is Yahweh so patient and longsuffering, as history with troubles drag on? This question is the context. The elect as you understand them are saved anyway. Those any that Yahweh gives opportunity not with desire that any perish are not defined and limited with the term us previous to it. Any who come to such repentance, with the essential faith, join with us in Christ. The only justification in the context is for all people. So all people do have some opportunity, though we should help others have more opportunity. Your Calvinist position gets in the way of you doing things for that.

 

[FredVB]

ESV study bible notes
Rom. 9:14–15 Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

To take this position that there was no basis would be with thinking that Yahweh does not already know what resulting future there is. It would have Yahweh time bound, and not omniscient, which the Bible reveals Yahweh is, as well as it being logically conclusive that necessary being, the self existent one, with having knowledge that precedes the creation with clearly knowledge possible in it, has no limit whatsover of knowledge, as there is no limit to what one is necessarily existing, in anything that is characteristic of this existence.

So justice and fairness that we understand has their basis in the true justice and fairness of this Creator, which the Creator does not violate, remaining perfect. Any mercy of the Creator would not have arbitrary limit either.

For these things, with those in this created world in rebellion with the fall to sin, Christ came, for us, it was needed.

 

[BBAS 64]

Why is Yahweh so patient and longsuffering, as history with troubles drag on? This question is the context. The elect as you understand them are saved anyway. Those any that Yahweh gives opportunity not with desire that any perish are not defined and limited with the term us previous to it. Any who come to such repentance, with the essential faith, join with us in Christ. The only justification in the context is for all people. So all people do have some opportunity, though we should help others have more opportunity. Your Calvinist position gets in the way of you doing things for that.

Good Day, Fred

do you have an honest intention of dealing with the text and the questions I asked? I am clearly not disregarding the text.

Lets remember repentance is also granted, much like Faith... not granted repentance is not possible

2 Ti 2:25 God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gr8Grace]

Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

What is asinine is born-again believers FORCING these verses to mean eternal salvation.

He sure is just in choosing one believer over the other for SERVICE. He would be unjust if He was choosing one sinner over another sinner to ETERNALLY SAVE.

Whosoever can believe and be saved. Whosoever chooses to advance in his plan after salvation will be elected or chose to serve. Loser believers are not chose or elected to service.

 

[Stormy]

op I have not read any of your replies and responses. Fact is that you begin with a false premise. You think that God could possibly be flawed and not know the future of a man.
but... If God were choosing one over another ... so BE IT!
who are you to NEED an explanation.
Take all your freaking question marks and ram them

 

[FredVB]

Why is Yahweh so patient and longsuffering, as history with troubles drag on? This question is the context. The elect as you understand them are saved anyway. Those any that Yahweh gives opportunity not with desire that any perish are not defined and limited with the term us previous to it. Any who come to such repentance, with the essential faith, join with us in Christ. The only justification in the context is for all people. So all people do have some opportunity, though we should help others have more opportunity. Your Calvinist position gets in the way of you doing things for that.

Good Day, Fred, do you have an honest intention of dealing with the text and the questions I asked? I am clearly not disregarding the text.

Lets remember repentance is also granted, much like Faith... not granted repentance is not possible
2 Ti 2:25 God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

Well, Bill, I am sure I was dealing with the text. And in 2 Titus 2:25 there is acknowledgement that there is still possibility for some to come to repentance, and they are not just excluded from the elect. But as you don't seem to follow, I will try to break it down for showing it.

2 Peter 3

"This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires."

There were prophecies in the old testament scriptures besides what Jesus said that show what would yet come. But there are scoffers that dismiss prophecies of scripture with their skeptic thinking of disbelief. I would not accuse other believers of this, hopefully you are not doing that either.

"They will say, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.' "

That Jesus Christ who rose from the dead and has life forevermore will return is not desirable to such and with saying all things continue as they were, they have their way. The uniformitarian approach in sciences accommodated them for this, and so it is widely accepted.

"For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

Catastrophism explains adequately what we find. And as the world before that catastrophe was under judgment from God and perished, as prophecies of the Bible and from Jesus show there is coming judgment, and Jesus is returning, which is certainty from prophetic scriptures. God would be right to destroy those who are involved with destructiveness to this world (Revelation 11:18).

"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

God takes the time, which is taken by people to be so slow, with some saying all things continue as they were, because of the longsuffering patience of God, that there will be people who won't just perish who would have, but will come to repentance as God is willing, for that, and such be saved.