Is God just choosing one over the another?????????

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Ok I see that but it is mentioned exactly once in the whole Bible. The verse defines it. We are justified by faith.

Remember (if it matters) that another verse in Romans 2 says those who DO TORAH and not just hear it are JUSTIFIED. Those who DO NOT TORAH, are NOT JUSTIFIED.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Remember (if it matters) that another verse in Romans 2 says those who DO TORAH and not just hear it are JUSTIFIED. Those who DO NOT TORAH, are NOT JUSTIFIED.

Yes I agree faith without obedience is dead. I’m not Jewish so while I know what Torah is, it doesn’t mean anything to me, nor does it have a hold on me.

The problem I have is the presentation that there kind of law that automatically functions. For me faith moves the personal hand of God.

 

[bcbsr]

13 As it is written, v“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? wIs there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17

ESV study bible notes
Rom. 9:14–15 Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

As I've studies those verses, I take into account their context. For details you can see my study guides
Rom 9
Rom 10
The point Paul is arguing is that God has the right to chose who he would be gracious to. Their works don't matter. Their works don't impact his choice. That's the point of the reference. He goes on to explain the basis of God's choice is not a person's works, but a person's faith.

Rom 9:30-32 "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."

And then in Romans 10 he emphasizes the justification by faith idea.

 

[bcbsr]

Remember (if it matters) that another verse in Romans 2 says those who DO TORAH and not just hear it are JUSTIFIED. Those who DO NOT TORAH, are NOT JUSTIFIED.

But his conclusion is that no one is qualified to be justified by the law.
Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
... ... ...
Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law

will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision

but break the law.
Romans 2

The point Paul is arguing is that God has the right to chose who he would be gracious to.

But his conclusion is that no one is qualified to be justified by the law.
Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

 

[sdowney717]

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
... ... ...
Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law

will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision

but break the law.
Romans 2

Doers of the law will be justified, by what law is anyone justified as no one can keep the law, not even devout jews were able to keep the law.
A person would have to keep the whole without a single failure to be justified, and only Christ did that.
And there is no salvation outside of Christ, no one comes to God except through Christ.
Romans 2 goes on and says they will be judged by Jesus Christ's gospel.

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

No one can excuse themselves before God as the whole world is guilty of sin, except for Christ who lived a sinless life.
They may try to excuse their behavior to God just like Adam did putting his failure on God and not accept blame for what he did.

Acts 15:23-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You seem very mixed up.

Your post I mean, doesn't make sense and is non-sequitur. Doesn't follow from the quote/topic, and doesn't provide anything edifying or helpful.

Doers of the law will be justified, by what law is anyone justified as no one can keep the law, not even devout jews were able to keep the law.
A person would have to keep the whole without a single failure to be justified, and only Christ did that.
And there is no salvation outside of Christ, no one comes to God except through Christ.
Romans 2 goes on and says they will be judged by Jesus Christ's gospel.

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

No one can excuse themselves before God as the whole world is guilty of sin, except for Christ who lived a sinless life.
They may try to excuse their behavior to God just like Adam did putting his failure on God and not accept blame for what he did.

Acts 15:23-25 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As I've studies those verses, I take into account their context. For details you can see my study guides
Rom 9
Rom 10
The point Paul is arguing is that God has the right to chose who he would be gracious to. Their works don't matter. Their works don't impact his choice. That's the point of the reference. He goes on to explain the basis of God's choice is not a person's works, but a person's faith.

Paul was saying no such thing. The man was a Pharisee and knew his OT. He knew that the choice of Jacob was solely for which would be the father of the nation God would give His law to and through which the Savior of the world would come. That’s it. Paul didn’t even think his own salvation was because God arbitrarily chooses some over others but gave a logical reason why Jesus appeared to him and he was shown his error.

Paul wrote that we will all stand before judgement and give an account of the works we did or failed to do. Works very much matter to God and the Bible is full of how God gives to men according to their works at times. Do you need the verses? If there is no outward appearance of faith as seen in our choices, the faith is dead or never was alive. Obedience to God (works) matter very much.

Rom 9:30-32 "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works."

And then in Romans 10 he emphasizes the justification by faith idea.

Justification is not all there is in the Kingdom of God, for one. And for two, clearly Jesus said if we don’t forgive others, God won’t justify/forgive us. Is forgiving others a work? No. It is necessary for forgiveness? Yes, absolutely.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, God sovereignly chooses whom He will, according to the counsel of His own autonomous free will whom He elects to salvation. God is sovereign, not man. Man's natural position is condemnation for his sins against the holy and perfectly righteous God. It is not that God rightfully condemns people to Hell for their sins against Him, but that He saves anyone at all. That is why grace is amazing!

It is only that God then unjustly refuses to implant saving Grace in this theology that is odious. You can try to sweep that obvious truth under the rug of “hey, let’s just look at those he saves instead of those He unjustly condemns” but you have to commit intellectual suicide shutting down the mind to embrace it. Reminds me of the brutal tyrants daughter who said of her father, “but he was always kind and gentle to me” as if that makes the cruelty OK.

 

[bcbsr]

Paul was saying no such thing. The man was a Pharisee and knew his OT. He knew that the choice of Jacob was solely for which would be the father of the nation God would give His law to and through which the Savior of the world would come. That’s it. Paul didn’t even think his own salvation was because God arbitrarily chooses some over others but gave a logical reason why Jesus appeared to him and he was shown his error.

Paul wrote that we will all stand before judgement and give an account of the works we did or failed to do. Works very much matter to God and the Bible is full of how God gives to men according to their works at times. Do you need the verses? If there is no outward appearance of faith as seen in our choices, the faith is dead or never was alive. Obedience to God (works) matter very much.


Justification is not all there is in the Kingdom of God, for one. And for two, clearly Jesus said if we don’t forgive others, God won’t justify/forgive us. Is forgiving others a work? No. It is necessary for forgiveness? Yes, absolutely.

Rom 10:9-12 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Rom 4:4-8 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Rom 10:9-12 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Rom 4:4-8 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Believe means you think what Jesus said not what you want to be true. “If you don’t forgive those who sin against you, neither will you be forgiven.” If you’re not forgiven, you’re not justified.

Believing you’re justified no matter what is not believing in Jesus. What he said is all that matters.

 

[JLB777]

Rom 10:9-12 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Rom 4:4-8 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[JLB777]

Rom 4:4-8 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
What then shall we say that Abraham our has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. Romans 4:1-12


First of all, Paul is showing the righteousness of faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is the context that is carried over from the previous chapter. The point being that Gentiles are included in the New Covenant, and are justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law of Moses.

• that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

So when he says, What then shall we say that Abraham our has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, Paul by context is showing that Gentiles are justified by faith the same way as Abraham, which was apart from the works of the law, since the law came 430 years later.


The "works" Paul is referring to in verse 1 is the works of the law.


The obedience of faith, of course is not the "works" of the law, which Paul declared at the beginning and end of Romans, as "bookends" that bracket the entire book of Romans, and establish the foundation of it's context.

All throughout Romans you will find this principle expounded upon by Paul.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


The principle or "law" of faith, which is obedience, is actually the very context of Romans 4.



So here's the question, that is based in this verse here in Romans 4 -

• And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also...

If Abraham disobeyed God about His command to him, that he and all of his household were to be circumcised as a sign of the righteousness of faith, would he have still been declared righteous?


23 So Abraham took Ishmael his son, all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very same day, as God had said to him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 That very same day Abraham was circumcised, and his son Ishmael; all the men of his house, born in the house or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. Genesis 17:23-26



Faith, without the action of obedience is dead, and will not produce the intended divine result, which in this case was justification by faith; Being declared right with God.



JLB

 

[JoeP222w]

It is only that God then unjustly refuses to implant saving Grace in this theology that is odious.

God is not obligated to save a single soul, yet He does. And God does not act unjustly ever.

You can try to sweep that obvious truth under the rug of “hey, let’s just look at those he saves instead of those He unjustly condemns”

God never unjustly condemns. There is no one who is innocent, no one who is neutral. Man, in his natural state, is a rebel sinner to God. Man is not a neutral player.

you have to commit intellectual suicide shutting down the mind to embrace it.

No. God never calls or commands blind faith, especially to a misrepresentation of His truth that you present.

You have to read the Bible. Romans 9 especially.

Reminds me of the brutal tyrants daughter who said of her father, “but he was always kind and gentle to me” as if that makes the cruelty OK.

Complete misrepresentation of Biblical truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God is not obligated to save a single soul, yet He does. And God does not act unjustly ever.

”Shall not the God of the earth do justly? Will you sweep away the righteous with the unrighteous?” God is very much obligated to be just to all men. If He sovereignty chooses some for salvation for no just reason, He is a tyrant. He is certainly obligated to be the same to all men unless there is a just reason to have favorites. Abraham knew he was so obligated.

God never unjustly condemns. There is no one who is innocent, no one who is neutral. Man, in his natural state, is a rebel sinner to God. Man is not a neutral player.

Since he is dependent upon God to save him, God is obligated to offer salvation to all or none as far as his part goes. Whether men do their part is not his responsibility, although He persuades.

No. God never calls or commands blind faith, especially to a misrepresentation of His truth that you present.

It actually happened. A tyrants daughter said her father was always kind and gentle to her. That is like the Calvinists who point to how their god is kind to save some ignoring the cruelty to others.

That, btw, is not the real God. He loves all men and wants all to repent and come to a knowledge of the truth.

You have to read the Bible. Romans 9 especially.

You need to read the rest of the Bible, especially the teachings of Jesus.

 

[JoeP222w]

.

 

[Petros2015]

"I Loved Jacob, but Esau I Hated"

Possibly God was speaking not in present tense directly and specifically towards Esau but towards the lineage he knew Esau would produce which would attack and war against Israel. In this sense, he hated what came of Esau, not necessarily Esau himself. And he would know what would come of both Israel and Esau.

"The LORD will war against Amalek from generation to generation.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek

Amalek (Hebrew: עֲמָלֵק‬, Modern Amalek, Tiberian ʻĂmālēq, Arabic: عماليق‎) is a nation described in the Old Testament of the Hebrew Bible. The name "Amalek" can refer to the nation's founder, a grandson of Esau; his descendents, the Amalekites; or the territories of Amalek which they inhabited.

The Defeat of the Amalekites Exodus 17:8-15

8After this, the Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. 9So Moses said to Joshua, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on the hilltop with the staff of God in my hand.”

10Joshua did as Moses had instructed him and fought against the Amalekites, while Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

11As long as Moses held up his hands, Israel prevailed; but when he lowered them, Amalek prevailed. 12When Moses’ hands grew heavy, they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it. Then Aaron and Hur held his hands up, one on each side, so that his hands remained steady until the sun went down.

13So Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his army with the sword.

14Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as a reminder and recite it to Joshua, because I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

15And Moses built an altar and named it The LORD Is My Banner. 16“Indeed,” he said, “a hand was lifted up toward the throne of the LORD. The LORD will war against Amalek from generation to generation.”

 

[Ken Rank]

Can you validate that from the text and context? That it means God "loved less"?

Sure... first of all does God "hate" people? No, He gave us all life and sent His son to save us, He so loved us ALL to do that. So on that alone He can't hate. Second, did Jacob "hate" Leah and if so, why he did he keep returning to bed with her? She did give him 7 children... to the point that Rachel began to feel forsaken. So when it says Leah was unloved to the point that God opened her womb... does that mean by miracle she gave birth? No, Jacob still had to lay with her... he didn't hate her, he just loved Rachel more. The idea of "___ I love and ___ I hate" in that culture and time is simply idiomatic.

Remember, Messiah teaches us to love even our enemy but then says, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." How can this be seeing "love your mother and father" is one of the 10 commandments? How can we love enemy but hate mom? We can't... it doesn't mean "hate" in this case he is saying, "If anyone comes to me and does not love his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life LESS THAN HE LOVES ME- then such a person cannot be my disciple."

 

[JLB777]

No, Jacob still had to lay with her... he didn't hate her, he just loved Rachel more. The idea of "___ I love and ___ I hate" in that culture and time is simply idiomatic.

Absolutely true.


Are we to "hate" our father and mother?

No, of course not, we are to honor our father and our mother.


However if it comes down to it, we are to prefer Jesus, and to love Him more that our father and mother.


Hate = love less


“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26




JLB

 

[Ken Rank]

Absolutely true.


Are we to "hate" our father and mother?

No, of course not, we are to honor our father and our mother.


However if it comes down to it, we are to prefer Jesus, and to love Him more that our father and mother.


Hate = love less


“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26




JLB

Hate CAN mean hate... context is the key of course.