Is God infinitely ancient?

[Ken Rank]

True.......
but that breath of life that YHWH breathed into Adam and Eve may have had more to it than we might at first imagine........

You may find the quotation here intriguing:

Is God infinitely ancient?

That is possible but then you would be speculating Dennis. While we are free to do that, we can't build doctrine on speculation because we aren't always correct when we speculate. All we have, in your example, is "and God breathed the breath of life into him and Adam became a living soul." (paraphrased) So that is ALL we have, and anything beyond that is speculation that may or may not be correct.

Bottom line is that God exists outside of time, period. We don't, Satan does not, but God does and therefore by definition is on a plain of existence we, in this fallen - corporeal state we are in, lack the means to 'fully' grasp His being. We can grasp His character, reputation, authority, power... but not His being.

 

[SBC]

I agree......
but there could well be even more to this because a powerful case can be presented
that God.... has probably invented duplicates of you and I who exist in multiple time lines each of which
are a significant fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 37.

I strongly suspect that God is leading more and more and more and more of the unsaved to salvation..... in non-linear time.

Duplicates of me? No, I don't agree with that probability.

Different kinds of death for the WHOLE of me, yes.

My body, my soul, my natural spirit, all have experienced a kind of death, that is separation from God.

My body, is still in it's death state, yet cleansed, sanctified, justified to be kept with Christ, and justified to be claimed, redeemed, raised and change to a glorious body, BY Gods Spirit.

My soul, has already been restored, to eternal Life, By Gods Spirit.

My spirit, has already been quickened to eternal Life, By Gods Spirit.

My separation experience from God ( which is a death ) has already been accomplished, thus, if my body physically dies, or doesn't, no matter, it will know nothing, feel nothing, and is already justified to be redeemed.

All of this, was known to God, Before my natural birth. And what He Knew, He authored. And what He Knew, He spoke. And what He speaks always comes to pass, so that we may also see the fruition of it.

IOW - God has His own books and records of His accounting, which are His own Truths. I simply TRUST to believe Him, and He keeps me in faithfulness to Him forever and always. I simply wait, to see, what I trust will transpire.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[DennisTate]

That is possible but then you would be speculating Dennis. While we are free to do that, we can't build doctrine on speculation because we aren't always correct when we speculate. All we have, in your example, is "and God breathed the breath of life into him and Adam became a living soul." (paraphrased) So that is ALL we have, and anything beyond that is speculation that may or may not be correct.

Bottom line is that God exists outside of time, period. We don't, Satan does not, but God does and therefore by definition is on a plain of existence we, in this fallen - corporeal state we are in, lack the means to 'fully' grasp His being. We can grasp His character, reputation, authority, power... but not His being.

All true......
but my goal is to see an increase in understanding that can lead to a variation of Intelligent Design that can be taught in universities and schools and before that can happen it could be helpful if God's own people are not overly fearful of some good explanations for what happened over infinite time in the past.

These paragraphs are written by a former Atheist......
but they fit so well with chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe entitled The Anthropic Principle that we could have here the seeds
of a whole new way of thinking..... that could defeat the dogmatic
and overly simplistic skepticism that is so common in higher learning at this time.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

Mellen Benedict: "It took me years after I returned from my near-death experience to assimilate any words at all for the Void experience. I can tell you this now: the Void is less than nothing, yet more than everything that is! The Void is absolute zero; chaos forming all possibilities. It is Absolute Consciousness; much more than even Universal Intelligence. The Void is the vacuum or nothingness between all physical manifestations. The SPACE between atoms and their components. Modern science has begun to study this space between everything. They call it Zero point. Whenever they try to measure it, their instruments go off the scale, or to infinity, so to speak. They have no way, as of yet, to measure infinity accurately. There is more of the zero space in your own body and the Universe than anything else!

What mystics call the Void is not a void. It is so full of energy, a different kind of energy that has created everything that we are. Everything since the Big Bang is vibration, from the first Word, which is the first vibration. The biblical "I am" really has a question mark after it. "I am -- What am I?" So creation is God exploring God’s Self through every way imaginable, in an ongoing, infinite exploration through every one of us. I began to see during my near-death experience that everything that is, is the Self, literally, your Self, my Self. Everything is the great Self. That is why God knows even when a leaf falls. That is possible because wherever you are is the center of the universe. Wherever any atom is, that is the center of the universe. There is God in that, and God in the Void.

As I was exploring the Void during my life after death experience and all the Yugas or creations, I was completely out of time and space as we know it. In this expanded state, I discovered that creation is about Absolute Pure Consciousness, or God, coming into the Experience of Life as we know it. The Void itself is devoid of experience. It is pre life, before the first vibration. Godhead is about more than Life and Death. Therefore there is even more than Life and Death to experience in the Universe!" (Mellen Benedict, near-death .com)

 

[DennisTate]

Duplicates of me? No, I don't agree with that probability.

Different kinds of death for the WHOLE of me, yes.

My body, my soul, my natural spirit, all have experienced a kind of death, that is separation from God.

My body, is still in it's death state, yet cleansed, sanctified, justified to be kept with Christ, and justified to be claimed, redeemed, raised and change to a glorious body, BY Gods Spirit.

My soul, has already been restored, to eternal Life, By Gods Spirit.

My spirit, has already been quickened to eternal Life, By Gods Spirit.

My separation experience from God ( which is a death ) has already been accomplished, thus, if my body physically dies, or doesn't, no matter, it will know nothing, feel nothing, and is already justified to be redeemed.

All of this, was known to God, Before my natural birth. And what He Knew, He authored. And what He Knew, He spoke. And what He speaks always comes to pass, so that we may also see the fruition of it.

IOW - God has His own books and records of His accounting, which are His own Truths. I simply TRUST to believe Him, and He keeps me in faithfulness to Him forever and always. I simply wait, to see, what I trust will transpire.

God Bless,
SBC

I don't blame you for being uncomfortable with that idea......
but it would be necessary for that to happen if... non linear time is one of the major ways that God
is setting out to save a high percentage of those who are lost at this time and in this time line.

Romans 11:1 (KJV)

Romans 11:26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Duplicates of me? No, I don't agree with that probability.

Different kinds of death for the WHOLE of me, yes.

My body, my soul, my natural spirit, all have experienced a kind of death, that is separation from God.

My body, is still in it's death state, yet cleansed, sanctified, justified to be kept with Christ, and justified to be claimed, redeemed, raised and change to a glorious body, BY Gods Spirit.

My soul, has already been restored, to eternal Life, By Gods Spirit.

My spirit, has already been quickened to eternal Life, By Gods Spirit.

My separation experience from God ( which is a death ) has already been accomplished, thus, if my body physically dies, or doesn't, no matter, it will know nothing, feel nothing, and is already justified to be redeemed.

All of this, was known to God, Before my natural birth. And what He Knew, He authored. And what He Knew, He spoke. And what He speaks always comes to pass, so that we may also see the fruition of it.

IOW - God has His own books and records of His accounting, which are His own Truths. I simply TRUST to believe Him, and He keeps me in faithfulness to Him forever and always. I simply wait, to see, what I trust will transpire.

God Bless,
SBC

Psalm 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

"Nothing in God's word suggests we should think of Creation as inifinitely valuable."
Agreed that a man should not think more of himself than he ought, but God thought of man enough to breathe life into his nostrils; and loved the world enough to send Yeshua to die for it. God gives us eternal life. How long is eternal?
To say that God's Word does not speak of the Value He places on it is at best inaccurate.

We start out this journey of soul perceiving with the five senses, setting two eyes on Christ, as something separate/outside of us until (by process taking place within) it is narrowed down to ONE (single of eye and ONE as in Jesus prayer of John 17), the mystery being revealed hidden...

"Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory." That image being revealed in the mirror comes into full Light..."And have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator."...as in the beginning, our end is full circle (back)...reconciled..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"...And...It is the Spirit giving life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life." We eat of our 'own' mind's perception or the mind of Christ which is the same truth of the tree in the midst of a garden and "Hast thou eaten..." ....God's Truth or our own imaginations/thought...

The duality within (Galatians 5) is like two trees in a garden...and eating...One brings LIFE, the other spiritual death and serpents in the garden... the end of our faith take us full circle (back) to the beginning...first and last Adam...Alpha and Omega...

God is impartial and loves each and everyone...some remain asleep in the dust, some have wakened to eternal life...perception is everything...but all in the Father's timing.

 

[Monk Brendan]

You two do understand that economy is Greek for 'House management' right? Why wouldn't God be involved in managing the household...which by the way involves finances...there's a difference between loving money and managing it properly.

Oh, I understand that. I was simply answering the OP, who mentioned economy, as if God can make your bank account grow without you working at it, to keep it growing. While God can, He won't.

 

[Monk Brendan]

One of the reasons why I proposed the printing up of church currencies several years
ago is that I knew even then that the metaphorical Bride of Messiah, the Holy Spirit led
church of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus was in a position to place a much different valuation on
each human life........ than political leaders could legitimately do.

Dennis, who is going to fund such currency, and who, besides yourself, is going to accept it for payment? Churches will never be able to print up money, because only governments can make money legal. The time when Church authority will be able to print up money is when it is the Anti-Christ's Church, and I'm pretty sure you DON'T want to be a member.

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis, who is going to fund such currency, and who, besides yourself, is going to accept it for payment? Churches will never be able to print up money, because only governments can make money legal. The time when Church authority will be able to print up money is when it is the Anti-Christ's Church, and I'm pretty sure you DON'T want to be a member.

Good point......
but a time based currency..... backed by one hour of volunteerism could
be extremely helpful in organizing all the activities that will take place as the
Holy Spirit is poured out more and more and more.

True..... not everybody will accept it......

Most large churches could have a lot more active people than one town in the State of New York though:

Ithaca Hours - Wikipedia

 

[DennisTate]

You two do understand that economy is Greek for 'House management' right? Why wouldn't God be involved in managing the household...which by the way involves finances...there's a difference between loving money and managing it properly.

I believe that we will soon see some really unusual things happening as the Great Awakening goes to another level entirely.

The Great Tsunami by Rick Joyner | MorningStar Prophetic Bulletins 2011

We will see events like hundreds of thousands of people gathering spontaneously for prayer and worship, becoming the biggest news stories of the day. News teams will be following apostolic teams and evangelists like they do politicians and business leaders now. Much more is happening now than most are aware of, or that is making the news, but when the Lord "suddenly comes into His temple," it will be the news, and the whole world will be aware of it.

There will be individual newscasts from secular networks that will cause more to come to Christ than Christian networks have in their entire existence. This is not to negate what has been accomplished by Christian networks but rather to stress the impact that this revival will have. We will go through a period when the news of the great things God is doing will crowd out just about all other news around the world.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Good point......
but a time based currency..... backed by one hour of volunteerism could
be extremely helpful in organizing all the activities that will take place as the
Holy Spirit is poured out more and more and more.

True..... not everybody will accept it......

Most large churches could have a lot more active people than one town in the State of New York though:

Dennis, how many people have the time, strength, energy, ability, and income to spend time volunteering? I can't. I am disabled, and I can barely walk a quarter of a mile. I am also a fall risk, so like as not, while walking that far, I would very probably fall. And there are a great many more people like me than in the good health and prosperity you seem to be enjoying.

As a matter of fact, I am writing this in my wheelchair.

BTW, the Mormons proposed doing something like what you are suggesting, and it didn't work for them, either.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All true......
but my goal is to see an increase in understanding that can lead to a variation of Intelligent Design that can be taught in universities and schools and before that can happen it could be helpful if God's own people are not overly fearful of some good explanations for what happened over infinite time in the past.

These paragraphs are written by a former Atheist......
but they fit so well with chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe entitled The Anthropic Principle that we could have here the seeds
of a whole new way of thinking..... that could defeat the dogmatic
and overly simplistic skepticism that is so common in higher learning at this time.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

You are looking for a variation of intelligent design that can be taught at universities.

That’s not happening nor should Christians move one inch towards these unbiblical theories based on near death experiences that you seem to believe and base your faith in.

The bible leg talks about trees whose branches sway any way the wind blows when they are not grounded.

I pray you spend time in God’s Word.

 

[DennisTate]

You are looking for a variation of intelligent design that can be taught at universities.

That’s not happening nor should Christians move one inch towards these unbiblical theories based on near death experiences that you seem to believe and base your faith in.

The bible leg talks about trees whose branches sway any way the wind blows when they are not grounded.

I pray you spend time in God’s Word.

I was a Christian for close to twenty years before I began to read near death experience accounts....... but I was ignorant of the scriptures and NDE accounts made me change my emphasis away from the verses that seemed to indicate Soul Sleep over to a more traditional way of viewing the state of the dead.

 

[DennisTate]

Dennis, how many people have the time, strength, energy, ability, and income to spend time volunteering? I can't. I am disabled, and I can barely walk a quarter of a mile. I am also a fall risk, so like as not, while walking that far, I would very probably fall. And there are a great many more people like me than in the good health and prosperity you seem to be enjoying.

As a matter of fact, I am writing this in my wheelchair.

BTW, the Mormons proposed doing something like what you are suggesting, and it didn't work for them, either.

This is helpful information, I had suspected that Latter Day Saints would be one group that could really do a lot with that idea. Especially because they control the State of Utah.

Frankly though Monk Brendan, you may be shocked at how much you are accomplishing by writing through these forums.

This is a massive open door.... and although I am reasonably healthy I feel that it is worth it to put perhaps a thousand hours per year into these forums.

By volunteering your time here you are fulfilling this verse:

Revelation 3:8

“I know your works. See, I have set before you an opendoor, and no one can shut it;[fn] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was a Christian for close to twenty years before I began to read near death experience accounts....... but I was ignorant of the scriptures and NDE accounts made me change my emphasis away from the verses that seemed to indicate Soul Sleep over to a more traditional way of viewing the state of the dead.

What is your point?

I studied NDE s many years ago a lot and it is a twisted road. When I realized that we ‘choose’ which NDE s we see as valid based on our own desires, I saw how much we have in God’s Word, not experiences of those who don’t stay dead.

There is a big difference between actually being dead and going through whatever happens and people in a death limbo state.

 

[DennisTate]

What is your point?

I studied NDE s many years ago a lot and it is a twisted road. When I realized that we ‘choose’ which NDE s we see as valid based on our own desires, I saw how much we have in God’s Word, not experiences of those who don’t stay dead.

There is a big difference between actually being dead and going through whatever happens and people in a death limbo state.

Whether or not a near death experiencer has a Life Review is a critical point in determining the calibre of an NDE.

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus promises to judge us when we die..... and I believe that the Life Review is at least a big part of that process..... but a mere out of the body experience can get somebody in contact with a far different type of spiritual being.

For instance... Matthew 4 may have taken place in the out of the body state. Fasting for forty days can induce an OOBE. Even Messiah Yeshua - Jesus met the Tempter / Satan in that experience.


Hebrews 9:27

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

John 5:22

“For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Baruch Chapter 6

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Whether or not a near death experiencer has a Life Review is a critical point in determining the calibre of an NDE.

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus promises to judge us when we die..... and I believe that the Life Review is at least a big part of that process..... but a mere out of the body experience can get somebody in contact with a far different type of spiritual being.

For instance... Matthew 4 may have taken place in the out of the body state. Fasting for forty days can induce an OOBE. Even Messiah Yeshua - Jesus met the Tempter / Satan in that experience.


Hebrews 9:27

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

John 5:22

“For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Baruch Chapter 6

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls.

So your position is that the Bible has NDE s?

So what if some contain a life review. Without a final judgement it isn’t Biblical

 

[Ken Rank]

All true......
but my goal is to see an increase in understanding that can lead to a variation of Intelligent Design that can be taught in universities and schools and before that can happen it could be helpful if God's own people are not overly fearful of some good explanations for what happened over infinite time in the past.

These paragraphs are written by a former Atheist......
but they fit so well with chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe entitled The Anthropic Principle that we could have here the seeds
of a whole new way of thinking..... that could defeat the dogmatic
and overly simplistic skepticism that is so common in higher learning at this time.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

Why would an increasingly secular and unrighteous culture accept the idea of intelligent design being taught in state funded institutions? They won't... they will turn further and further from God until Yeshua comes. This is all written, man isn't the answer. What we need to do is find where God uses us in His plan and walk in that calling.

 

[DennisTate]

Why would an increasingly secular and unrighteous culture accept the idea of intelligent design being taught in state funded institutions? They won't... they will turn further and further from God until Yeshua comes. This is all written, man isn't the answer. What we need to do is find where God uses us in His plan and walk in that calling.

This is an excellent question.......
and perhaps I am incorrect but I believe that just as G-d raised up the Prophet Moses, General Joshua/ Yeshua and later on King David and King Solomon.......
and later on King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon...... . King Cyrus the Great of the Medo - Persian Empire and King Alexander the Great of the Greco- Macedonian Empire so also..........
......
it is my belief that at this time G-d is raising up two more beasts.......
one out of the oceans and one out of the land.......

I personally regard a prediction for the future by a Pastor Rick Joyner as at minimum.... having artistic value.... but frankly..... I suspect that the time will come when we realize that his predictions had more value than merely artistic.

I do believe that President Donald J. TRump has some sort of "Cyrus" calling, destiny, gifting, mantle on his life...... and I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus wishes to bless President Donald Trump beyond his wildest imagination..........
but somewhat like how King Solomon was astonishingly blessed by G-d?!

 

[DennisTate]

So your position is that the Bible has NDE s?

So what if some contain a life review. Without a final judgement it isn’t Biblical

Prophets are allowed to be human and flawed........
The Prophet Daniel admitted clearly and plainly that he did NOT
fully understand the visions and dreams that he had been given......
so he prayed and asked for clarification.

Yes...... I do believe that Prophets had near death experiences or at the least
out of body experiences..... but of course...... this is a conclusion that I arrived at
after years of study....... and even after years of study..... I have arrived at conclusions that were terribly flawed and in error.

After reading the Bible perhaps fifty times while I was a teenager and into my twenties, I was a firm believer in the "Soul Sleep" doctrine that I now am 99.9% certain is terribly in error.

Here is an example of a verse in the Jewish Bible that sure seems to fit with some aspects of II Corinthians 12:2-4........

2Kings 6:12

'And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.'

It seems to me that if.......
Messiah Yeshua / Jesus did indeed have either a near death experience or at least an out of the body experience while fasting for forty days.... then......
as is reported by other near death experiencers..... once one has their first OOBE or two or three.....
controlling the OOBE becomes possible and you may be able to make statements like:


John 1:48

¶
Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.