Is God doubt-tolerant?

[Tom 1]

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

I would say questioning is positively encouraged. Job tackles the most profound questions in a pretty no-holds barred way, and there are plenty of other examples.

 

[Hmm]

In the end i bumped into Jesus the doubter i was and died with a scream of horror realising i brought my own misery into me doubting Him, i have never doubted Him again after that,

Wow, powerful story. By "died" do you mean that you died to your old self and had a born-again experience? And your scream of horror because of a realisation that it was you who had been keeping yourself from God all along by doubting - what was it you were doubting, His existence or that He loves you or something else?

 

[Joyous Song]

Mother Teresa was said to be plagued by doubt while she lived. Ar9ound her she watched children dying, women abused and men die of hunger. Life outside her walls in Calcutta showed disrepair and little evidence of G-d mercy and love. Yet because of these feeling she was motivated to save as many as she could, bring as many as she could to faith, and do all this through her example alone. That was a clear act of faith!

Holy Doubt, is really the root of the Dark Night of the Soul. G-d seems far away, yet in truth He near, yet to find true holiness, you need to reach that beggar kind of faith for Christ told us, "Blessed are the poor in Spirit, for their is the kingdom of God." The Greek word for poor means "to beg". This in turn to us suggests Holy Doubt.

 

[Kenny'sID]

A few thoughts only.

Complete lack of doubt in this case would equate to perfect faith. Some may claim it but I seriously doubt anyone has perfect faith.

Meaning God has to have some type of tolerance there.

Remember Peter as he walked on the water, then began to doubt, began to sink and Christ saved him from sinking? I'd call that tolerance, and I doubt christ loved him any less because of it.

With faith as a mustard seed we can move mountains...have any one of us been able to move a mountain with faith only, no? And I seriously doubt God holds that against us.

 

[Gary K]

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

What does God say about your question? Did you know He addresses it in the Bible? And He does so in the Old Testament. You know where many Christians say God was nasty and mean.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

I would say God has been completely misrepresented. One other point of reference. The God speaking throughout the Old Testament is the same God who died for you on Calvary.

I would advise you to take your doubts to God in prayer. He's the one who can truly answer them for you. It's what He wants you to do as He wants a personal relationship with you. Doing that is doing what He asked us to do in Isaiah 1:18. God is not unreasonable. It's the devil who has painted that picture of God.

 

[Joyous Song]

Kenny's: On your thoughts.

Kenny's: Complete lack of doubt in this case would equate to perfect faith. Some may claim it but I seriously doubt anyone has perfect faith.

This is where Holy Doubt comes in. Those who embrace the The Dark Night, or a walk though the Beatitudes, may, though its unlikely, but may reach a near perfect faith, but of course, even if they did they would likely say they are a sinner still. That fact is the closer you come to true faith, the dirtier you feel.

Kenny's: Meaning God has to have some type of tolerance there.

Without which would anyone be saved?

Kenny's: Remember Peter as he walked on the water, then began to doubt, began to sink and Christ saved him from sinking? I'd call that tolerance, and I doubt Christ's loved him any less because of it.

Also the last page of John, Peter could only Philo love Christ even though Christ kept asking him if he Agape loved Him. Philo is a strong feeling, Agape is active love or love in action. Still the last time Christ asked, "Somon, son of Bajona, Do you love Me?" he used Philo, thus here too He moved to Peters level. That because Christ has Agape love!

Kenny's: With faith as a mustard seed we can move mountains...have any one of us been able to move a mountain with faith only, no? And I seriously doubt God holds that against us.

Amen!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

As a Christian no matter what flesh driven state we are in , there is always a kernal of faith. Remember even Jesus Christ of Nazareth fell to the weakness of the flesh . " My God , My, God, why have you forsaken me"? Our faith is like a mustard seed. It grows as we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us as long as we do not quench Him. Doubt , if not addressed, could lead to apostasy so lean on the power of the Holy Spirit to stay on the narrow road that leads to the narrow gate , the Kingdom of God. Be blessed.

 

[CyberPaladin]

Also if you are having doubts I'd say the first thing you need to do focus on what it is your having doubts about is it a tradition, something loosely based on scripture or something directly from the Bible. While we all have doubts in faith from time to time we also live in a fallen world and those leading the Church aren't perfect so some doubts will turned out to be justified.

 

[dqhall]

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

The Bible is part fact and part fiction, yet I believe God is real and can instruct people. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. With Jesus the murder rate went down.

In Matthew 5:21 (WEB) You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ Exodus 20:13 and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.”

From Matthew 5:38 (WEB) “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21 39 But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

 

[Hmm]

While we all have doubts in faith from time to time we also live in a fallen world and those leading the Church aren't perfect so some doubts will turned out to be justified.

I do think that's a big reason to doubt. Why doesn't the church reflect Jesus more than it does? Of course, I include myself in that. The Christians I know don't seem to live any differently than my secular friends. They're probably better in the more visible ways such as drinking less, but not always!, but in less obvious ways such as being judgemental about others and hypocrisy I would say they are usually worse.

 

[BobRyan]

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand.

The Bible condemns doubt - but it does not condemn asking questions. You are equivocating between "Asking Questions" and doubt. Doubt in its worst form takes a closed-minded position opposing the Word of God...

Asking questions is an open-minded act of wanting to know more ... wanting to know how something works, wanting to know what exactly is the more full definition of something... how it applies in example-a or example-b. Some forms of doubt are of this category where it just means "lack of certainty" but when you contrast asking questions with doubt .. then doubt is the more definite position of opposing what has been said and raising reasons for objecting to it.

The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Amplified Bible says
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

At a point when Thomas had not yet seen the risen Christ but the other 10 disciples had seen him... we see this

John 20
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

As you point out - Christianity would have been dead in the water - no good news of salvation gone to anyone beyond the first century disciples -- if everyone took the position - " “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

Sinners in a lost world - need to "survive" need to be "survivors" need to take the gospel-ship of escape from the doomed island (planet Earth... lake of fire).

Survivors get on board - those who choose not to get on board don't survive.

===================
How then are any unbelievers ever convinced at all? how as Christianity grown to over 2 billion?

"The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16. So that mens a real life event, real life "experience" is being encountered even by unbelievers.

I heard a program over the radio 3 years ago where the guest being interviewed was an atheist with a "Ministry" hotline helpline of helping Christians choose atheism and exit Christianity. She said that by far the number one call for help from atheists of all stripes no matter how long they had been atheist was an "inexplicable intense fear of hell". That's the Holy Spirit warning them to not leap off the cliff.

 

[Hmm]

It grows as we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us as long as we do not quench Him.

Yes, I believe God wants us to live a full life. I think it's easy to think the opposite though and that we're in for a half-life or three-quarters life if we become a Christian.

Be blessed.

Thanks. You too.

 

[BobRyan]

I do think that's a big reason to doubt. Why doesn't the church reflect Jesus more than it does? Of course, I include myself in that.

How much time do you spend with him each day?

In my case - my family and I are going through this 830+ page detailed uplifting commentary on the life of Christ - for about 20 minutes in evening worship each day in addition to reading our Bibles and spending time in prayer.
free online - The Desire of Ages — Ellen G. White Writings

God values free will. Your choices matter. God does not robot-zap-you each day.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

Be a survivor - act, take determined action.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN" -- God took the initiative God acted.
John 1:11 "and His OWN received him not" -- they chose not to act.

When the lion comes - when the lion roars... some animals take immediate action and flee -- others freeze in place paralyzed with questions, fear, inaction.

I love to ask questions and find answers - that is how I make progress.. but not to the point of taking no action remaining paralyzed and indecisive.

 

[lsume]

I don't think "doubt-tolerant" is an actual word but it's a word writer Philip Yancey used in an interview I've just read that he gave on the subject of faith and doubt.

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations and how he has respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible.

My first experience of church was that asking questions was tantamount to a sin and I was basically told just to believe. I left in a state of some disgrace and this put me off church for some years until I decided to try a different church where I had a better experience.

I wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith. So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

Suppose that you absolutely knew The Truth about The GodHead and The Sacrifice of Christ? Do you think you would be able to live sin free? There is fundamental Truth in God’s Word and Christ will only tell you the Truth. Man’s impact on trying to understand Christianity has ended in a mess because Christ wasn’t doing The Teaching. There is absolute Truth in God’s Word and I very much believe that if you seek It you will find It.

 

[Blade]

Doubt is not of God. Christ in a town could do no mighty work only lay hands a few and teach. And He marveled because of their unbelief. The word also says "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;" Doubt will always stop God.

"Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin." This is a great example.

Just talking about doubt. There are so many times we wonder.. ask questions. To please the Father it has to be by faith and faith alone. To trust no matter what we see hear feel. Walk by what He said.. knowing He will keep His word. If we doubt. nothing will happen.

 

[Tolworth John]

wonder what you think about doubt. Do you regard it as a weakness or even a strength? It seems to me that doubt and faith go hand-in-hand. The apostles and people who witnessed the risen Christ are the only people who know for certain that Jesus rose again (or didn't and it's all a hoax) but the rest of us are simply not in this privileged position. We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt.

There is nothing wrong with having doubts or questions about Christianity.
We are told to be always be ready to give a reason for our faith.
That means knowing the what and why one believes.

As for Jesus's resurrection, as Paul wrote, if there was no resurrection then there is no Christianity.

May I suggest you check out Dr Greg Habermass and his minimal facts of the resurrection. Or you can check out what atheist historians like Bart Rehman believe about the historical accuracy of the resurrection.

 

[Jok]

In the interview he said that he often challenges students to find a single argument against God in the older agnostics (Bertrand Russell, Voltaire, David Hume) or the newer ones (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris) that is not already included in books like Psalms, Job, Habakkuk, and Lamentations

Interesting

Edited to note that Christopher Hitchens died in 2011

Time really flies I can’t believe it was 9 years ago.

 

[April_Rose]

I've said this before but I think that doubt and unbelief are two entirely different things. As a Christian I really want to believe, but sometimes I question my faith. However, an unbeliever usually rejects Christ and doesn't want to have anything to do with Him and a Christian can never do that. Just like a Christian can never commit the unpardonable sin.

 

[zippy2006]

Interesting thread. I don't think doubt per se is a good thing, but I know many people think about this question.

We can only have faith that He did but this does seem to imply a level of doubt. If we were certain, we would not need faith.

I wouldn't define faith as an uncertain belief. Faith is not like a truth that is known directly, so we can't have the kind of certitude there that we can by seeing that 2+2=4. On the other hand, it isn't an opinion, supposition, or probabilistic inkling. Faith is a sort of trust or assurance arrived at by other means than, say, scientific proof.

So it doesn't seem warranted to feel guilty about having doubt and perhaps it's even a good and healthy thing to acknowledge it.

Just because doubt is not desirable does not mean that you should feel guilty about having doubts or not acknowledge legitimate doubts you are having. Pain is similar. If you have a deep gash in your calf you shouldn't feel guilty about it or ignore it and pretend it isn't there, but that doesn't mean that it is a good thing.

That's encouraging. I wonder as well if doubt has a positive aspect to it as well and so isn't something we should try to eradicate or get rid of totally. I have a feeling that if I went around being 100% sure I knew the truth and had God completely sussed, I wouldn't be very tolerant or someone anyone would like to have a pint with!

Acknowledging that you are ignorant about some matter does not mean that you are in doubt about it. Ignorance is certainly the sort of thing that ought to be acknowledged so that we might move beyond it, and sometimes this is the case with doubt too. Other doubts ought to remain. For example, if a source is truly unreliable then we ought to doubt the things that source says. Doubting your own capacity to understand very difficult matters is also a necessary kind of doubt, including your understanding of God or God's plan.

 

[Beanieboy]

Thomas had one of the strongest faiths of the disciples because he questioned, he doubted. I find that most people who don't doubt don't think that much about spiritual matters. If something is true, one should be able to question without the truth changing.

I would rather doubt a little than just believe anything I'm told from my church. After a while, your doubts are answered.

What baffles me are Christians that want others to doubt their salvation. I understand not wanting one to be complacent, but it is quite another thing to imply there is an elect chosen by God, and nothing you can do about it, to say that you are saved but Christ's Salvation may be rescinded if you lose God's favor, etc.

I read How to quit church without quitting God, and the author jokes that despite going to church and believing in God since he was a kid, he asked Jesus into his heart at age 7, just in case. Then again at 9, and then at 12, just incase the first two times Jesus was busy, or it "didn't take."

He mentions this because a congregation should be giving you faith in your salvation. Any correction should be done in love and for edification, but God's love for us is so powerful that even death can't separate us from it.

We focus on sin, so that a Christian will wonder if he has been good enough. I don't demand perfection from friends because I am not perfect, and while we both strive to be the best versions of ourselves that we can be, we also ask forgiveness when we have wronged another, and grant it in kind. The focus should be less about "thou shalt not" and more on how you can actively love your neighbor, and that allows the love of Christ to come through you, and ripple out to others. That is what is asked. Comfort who mourn. Offer to go shopping for an elderly neighbor. And don't keep a tally, but do it as a way to thank the father for loving you.

Soon, it becomes your nature. You begin to live in a state of love, and the Kingdom is Within You.