Is free-will ever really an informed choice? IDK

[Saint Steven]

I don’t believe they truly knew the implications of "death" until after they had already disobeyed. God tells satan of his plan for salvation

That's my point, they were uninformed. If they understood the consequences, they would not have been deceived.

 

[Saint Steven]

How informed were you when you decided to give your heart to Jesus? Did you know all of the theology you know now?
Perhaps faith doesn't require all the information.

Exactly!
It seems that we are all driven more by emotion than knowledge. Omniscience is not a human characteristic. We have to trust God, even in all our poor (uninformed) decisions.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Adding on? A&E were informed? How so?

You added a question which had nothing to do with the question in your OP that I answered.

Did they know they were on the threshold of the Fall of humankind? That a perfect and sinless man would have to die to pay the penalty of death for them? Doubtful.

Adam and Eve didn't know the consequences of death, nor the fix for it, before the fall. You could say they were informed, but not "well-informed". everything in scripture is based on faith (trust) in what God says to be true, regardless if we know "why" or not. Kind of like an earthy father you don't question because you know he will just say "because I said so". And often, (if we have knowledgeable parents) we may choose to go against what they say and often find out the hard way they were correct and had good reason to warn us.

 

[Saint Steven]

You added a question which had nothing to do with the question in your OP that I answered.

What question did I add?
And why would you want to limit what questions I ask? As if I am somehow not playing fairly? - LOL

 

[YahuahSaves]

What question did I add?

The one I quoted that was not clarified in your OP?

Besides, I answered it anyway in my previous post.

 

[Saint Steven]

The one I quoted that was not clarified in your OP?

Besides, I answered it anyway in my previous post.

I think the thread of thought is getting lost in our banter.
And you seem evasive... or lazy - LOL

I still don't understand why you objected to my question, which was supposedly not a part of my OP.
But perhaps you weren't serious, or just want to move on here? (not the droids you were looking for?)

Yes, or no...
Is free-will ever really an informed choice? Yes, or no?

 

[Saint Steven]

That is revelation though, not conscience. But it certainly makes you regret your mistake when you do have such a request from God like Abraham and fail from lack of knowledge of the bible.

Here's my view.
All our choices are uniformed, but not all our choices are failures.

And I certainly don't rank our Hebrews Hall of Faith winner (Abraham) as a failure.

It's not about winning and losing. It's about our human condition of being forced to make uniformed decisions.
We do our best to attempt to be prepared to make our decisions, but ultimately, we are under-informed, and therefore uniformed completely.

I would say we always WANT to make an informed decision, but we can never be completely informed. God is omniscient, not us.
We need to trust Him and not our own knowledge, reasoning, information...

Romans 4:16 NIV
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's my view.
All our choices are uniformed, but not all our choices are failures.

Additionally...

Sometimes even the right choice can end in what might be viewed as a failure.

Imagine someone walking across a bridge and seeing a person in the water drowning.
Moral obligation (the respect for life) sends them plunging into the river to save the drowning person.
It would be hard to argue that this was the wrong decision, though it would always be uninformed, since we don't know the outcome.

Here's the outcome. Both drowned.

The end determines the story.
Saving the drowning person makes you a hero, both drowning makes you a fool. ???
Was the act right or wrong? Success or failure?

If we were informed of the outcome, would we jump?
I know, I know... we can't change the outcome with complete foreknowledge.
This may be a key thought here. Or rubbish... IDK (send help) - LOL

 

[YahuahSaves]

I think the thread of thought is getting lost in our banter.
And you seem evasive... or lazy - LOL

Possibly, but that doesn't mean I was lacking in my responses.


Here's a run down of my responses to your OP. You can go back and see what questions from your OP I answered.

Adam and Eve were both informed clearly of the consequences of eating from the tree.
Adam possibly informing Eve of the rule (the text doesn't say) it wasn't misinformation but an exaggeration. Perhaps Eve came up with the exaggeration herself since she knew how serious it was.

Theoretically yes. Often children will do what they're told not to in order to figure out for themselves if what you told them is true. And the saying goes, we learn from our mistakes (supposedly), although I don't think that's entirely true as we see in the bible, humanity and even ourselves, we can repeat the same mistakes over and over and not learn much.

Everyone has a conscience. It's a choice whether we listen to it or not.


Romans 2:14-15

14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

You then "added" a question after my responses that was not in your OP. Perhaps I assumed you meant I was expected to answer, or I didn't answer according to what you were after.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Did they know they were on the threshold of the Fall of humankind? That a perfect and sinless man would have to die to pay the penalty of death for them? Doubtful.

So I responded to the above quote below.

You're adding on here.
Adam and Eve were informed they would die if they ate of the fruit of the tree.
Why would anyone be informed of the fix for that mistake in advance? Makes no sense. We're dealing with conscience not foresight thousands of years into the future.

I don’t believe they truly knew the implications of "death" until after they had already disobeyed. God tells satan of his plan for salvation (in the presence of Adam and Eve perhaps?)

Genesis 3:14-15

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike[a] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Does this clear things up?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Yes, or no...
Is free-will ever really an informed choice? Yes, or no?

If you're talking about relying on our conscience, then yes. We know the difference instinctively between right and wrong. Whether we follow our conscience is another thing.

Here's my view.
All our choices are uniformed, but not all our choices are failures.

We may have little information to go on, but even our intuition of right and wrong can tell us a great deal, if we're listening.

Somanetimes even the right choice can end in what might be viewed as a failure.

How is death a failure if you died saving someone else's life? Firstly, God knows the time and place he takes us, if we die saving someone else, doesn't that mean a reward in heaven? Unless we're talking about non-believers here, I'm not sure, but there is still the judgement to think of in that case.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's a run down of my responses to your OP. You can go back and see what questions from your OP I answered.

Seriously?
No offense, but what's the point of this assignment?

 

[Saint Steven]

Does this clear things up?

Nope.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Seriously?
No offense, but what's the point of this assignment?

Well don't be what you presumed of me... it's why I added my detailed posts, to show you I was neither evasive or lazy.

And you seem evasive... or lazy - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

How is death a failure if you died saving someone else's life?

Ask the family who lost a father and husband, the primary breadwinner in that home.
Wasn't that father and husband responsible to care for the needs of his family above the needs of a complete stranger?
This is a lose/lose situation. Looks like a failure to me.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well don't be what you presumed of me... it's why I added my detailed posts, to show you I was neither evasive or lazy.

Perhaps you are unable to define the word evasive? Your post is evasive. Yes, the one quoted here above. /\ See it?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Seriously?
No offense, but what's the point of this assignment?

I'm just quoting your post above as a "ditto" to your below statements. It seems you are changing the goal posts every time you ask a question and it's answered, you "add-on" something you hadn't mentioned previously. See below 2 quotes regarding the same scenario.

Imagine someone walking across a bridge and seeing a person in the water drowning.

Ask the family who lost a father and husband, the primary breadwinner in that home.

Regardless of the imagined person in question and what their "responsibilities" are, God still has a set time for our death. So I stick by my initial response.

Perhaps you are unable to define the word evasive? Your post is evasive. Yes, the one quoted here above. /\ See it?

How was that post evasive? I added your quote of assuming I was being evasive and lazy. I told you to not be what you presumed of me by not reading my previous responses and the questions I answered in those posts. If you see it as an "assignment" then perhaps you shouldn't expect any responses but "evasive" or "lazy" ones?

Anyway, kinda said what I wanted to say to your OP overall, take it or leave it.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well don't be what you presumed of me...

Asking you to clarify what you wrote in your own forum post is not a pointless research project. IMHO
Can we get back on topic. please?

 

[David's Harp]

Since Eve hadn't been there for the "do not eat" discussion, Adam needed to misinform her.

Steve, I have a wee bit of a problem - sorry, issue - with this idea of Adam misinforming Eve. What are you really saying here? That he deliberately lied to Eve, or that he forgot to relay some very important information (seems unlikely)?

Of course, you could just go with: Adam was misinformed, so yada yada yada.
But you seem to be highlighting the differences in the verses and putting some blame onto Adam. Am I reading this incorrectly?

 

[Unqualified]

He told us all things that the Father had said. He doesn’t keep us in the dark like servants, but as friends He informed us. The Bible is enough to make informed choices. Plus the testimony of others. The quest is can you be sensitive enough to live and be righteous by what He said. I think what you are suggesting is that God make the word about us, our doubts, our fears, our argument. But He doesn’t do that. What he has done is enough.

Just like ‘a&e’ you know what sin will do. It is black and white. No grey for dabbling. It’s absolute.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Isn't a free-will choice like a shot in the dark?

Only God knows the end from the beginning of a thing.
How could we ever hope to make a right decision based on our human abilities to do so?

I know, I know... that's why we follow the teachings of the Bible. It's already figured out for us.
And we also have a God-given conscience to guide us. Not to mention the indwelling Spirit.

The most catastrophic example I can think of is Adam. (the first Adam)

In the Genesis account, God tells Adam not to eat of the tree, or he will certainly die.
What did that mean to Adam? Did he have any idea what death was?

After that discussion with God, Eve was taken out of Adam via his rib.
Since Eve hadn't been there for the "do not eat" discussion, Adam needed to misinform her.
Yes, misinform. Where did, "not even touch it" come from? Not from God.
According to the text, anyway.

So, how informed was Adam's free-will choice?

Is free-will ever really an informed choice?

Would you honor the misinformed free-will choice of your own child if you knew it would cause them harm?
What about the Father of all fathers? Better informed than any human father. What would he do?

God fully informed Adam. Not only did He tell Adam how to "tend" to the garden and be fruitful and multiply, which was" good knowledge", He also warned Adam not to go near the tree that exposed" evil knowlege" . Everything God made " was good" and Adam was fully aware of all the goodness. There was an obvious distinction that God made very clear to Adam between good and evil and overlooking that fact is a mistake.
Blessings.