Is free-will ever really an informed choice? IDK

[Saint Steven]

Isn't a free-will choice like a shot in the dark?

Only God knows the end from the beginning of a thing.
How could we ever hope to make a right decision based on our human abilities to do so?

I know, I know... that's why we follow the teachings of the Bible. It's already figured out for us.
And we also have a God-given conscience to guide us. Not to mention the indwelling Spirit.

The most catastrophic example I can think of is Adam. (the first Adam)

In the Genesis account, God tells Adam not to eat of the tree, or he will certainly die.
What did that mean to Adam? Did he have any idea what death was?

After that discussion with God, Eve was taken out of Adam via his rib.
Since Eve hadn't been there for the "do not eat" discussion, Adam needed to misinform her.
Yes, misinform. Where did, "not even touch it" come from? Not from God.
According to the text, anyway.

So, how informed was Adam's free-will choice?

Is free-will ever really an informed choice?

Would you honor the misinformed free-will choice of your own child if you knew it would cause them harm?
What about the Father of all fathers? Better informed than any human father. What would he do?

 

[Unqualified]

By the spirit or in the flesh.

 

[Saint Steven]

By the spirit or in the flesh.

Either way, I suppose.

In the flesh we are ill-informed. And in the Spirit we are under-informed. In my experience, anyway.
God says, "Go talk to that person." I ask, "What should I say?" No reply. (sigh)

 

[sandman]

Either way, I suppose.

In the flesh we are ill-informed. And in the Spirit we are under-informed. In my experience, anyway.
God says, "Go talk to that person." I ask, "What should I say?" No reply. (sigh)

My experience (and this is reflecting on Abrahams walk) When God says "go talk to that person" you go ..."what to say" will be there when you act on the first command.

 

[public hermit]

Isn't a free-will choice like a shot in the dark?

Only God knows the end from the beginning of a thing.
How could we ever hope to make a right decision based on our human abilities to do so?

I know, I know... that's why we follow the teachings of the Bible. It's already figured out for us.
And we also have a God-given conscience to guide us. Not to mention the indwelling Spirit.

The most catastrophic example I can think of is Adam. (the first Adam)

In the Genesis account, God tells Adam not to eat of the tree, or he will certainly die.
What did that mean to Adam? Did he have any idea what death was?

After that discussion with God, Eve was taken out of Adam via his rib.
Since Eve hadn't been there for the "do not eat" discussion, Adam needed to misinform her.
Yes, misinform. Where did, "not even touch it" come from? Not from God.
According to the text, anyway.

So, how informed was Adam's free-will choice?

Is free-will ever really an informed choice?

Would you honor the misinformed free-will choice of your own child if you knew it would cause them harm?
What about the Father of all fathers? Better informed than any human father. What would he do?

This is such a good and important question, I think. It would seem that a truly free choice would be fully informed so that the choice I am making really is aimed at the good that I think it is. Obviously, a completely uninformed choice is simply an arbitrary choice since it has no reason, which is not free.

I think it's clear with a little self-reflection that most every choice we make is aimed at something good or something we perceive as good. We might be wrong for any number of reasons, but we are always seeking something good when we choose.

The fact that Eve was deceived into thinking her choice was good is telling. She was not making a fully informed choice because she truly believed the choice she was making was good, when in fact it worked against her own good. Likewise, Adam had no experience with the consequences of a wrong choice that led to death.

I think, on the face of it, the idea that they were freely choosing evil might seem to have some warrant, but on closer analysis, they had no idea what they were getting themselves into.

If we stick with the narrative of Genesis, had they truly known what they were doing they never would have done it. But, of course, they didn't know which is clear by their shame. They didn't even know they were naked! The Genesis account is excellent in presenting the experience of human sin, but it doesn't explain it. And for my own part, I do not think the usual free will defense that is used to somehow free God of any responsibility for the human condition works. Paul understood this and makes no bones about-God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that God may be merciful to all.

 

[Unqualified]

Either way, I suppose.

In the flesh we are ill-informed. And in the Spirit we are under-informed. In my experience, anyway.
God says, "Go talk to that person." I ask, "What should I say?" No reply. (sigh)

But we know right from wrong. If we know Gods word it narrows down the choices. But we always have a choice- it’s a test. Somewhat of intuition. If we are led of the spirit we will not do the works of the flesh’. I’m kind of in agreement, but we are not lost. He is always bringing scripture to mind. God will not let us be ignorant unless we choose not to study.

 

[zippy2006]

Isn't a free-will choice like a shot in the dark?

Only God knows the end from the beginning of a thing.
How could we ever hope to make a right decision based on our human abilities to do so?

I know, I know... that's why we follow the teachings of the Bible. It's already figured out for us.
And we also have a God-given conscience to guide us. Not to mention the indwelling Spirit.

The most catastrophic example I can think of is Adam. (the first Adam)

In the Genesis account, God tells Adam not to eat of the tree, or he will certainly die.
What did that mean to Adam? Did he have any idea what death was?

After that discussion with God, Eve was taken out of Adam via his rib.
Since Eve hadn't been there for the "do not eat" discussion, Adam needed to misinform her.
Yes, misinform. Where did, "not even touch it" come from? Not from God.
According to the text, anyway.

So, how informed was Adam's free-will choice?

Is free-will ever really an informed choice?

Would you honor the misinformed free-will choice of your own child if you knew it would cause them harm?
What about the Father of all fathers? Better informed than any human father. What would he do?

...This is how far the person who denies Christian orthodoxy will go to avoid the possibility of Hell. They will deny human responsibility. They will deny that humans can make free decisions. They will deny that humans can make decisions with knowledge. Their Heaven is literally full of those who have no freedom and no imago dei. Common sense tells us that humans make free, informed, responsible decisions all the time, but of course common sense must be cut off when it endangers the golden calf - when it prevents us from drawing the conclusion we wish to draw.

 

[Fervent]

I'm not sure being informed is a necessary ingredient for freedom, taking your example as a for instance. Adam didn't need to know what death was, all he needed to know was that God had told him. Adam knew God, spoke with Him face to face. So while he may not have known what death means, his rejection of God was still free and blameworthy.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Since Eve hadn't been there for the "do not eat" discussion, Adam needed to misinform her.
Yes, misinform. Where did, "not even touch it" come from? Not from God.
According to the text, anyway.

Adam and Eve were both informed clearly of the consequences of eating from the tree.
Adam possibly informing Eve of the rule (the text doesn't say) it wasn't misinformation but an exaggeration. Perhaps Eve came up with the exaggeration herself since she knew how serious it was.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Would you honor the misinformed free-will choice of your own child if you knew it would cause them harm?

Theoretically yes. Often children will do what they're told not to in order to figure out for themselves if what you told them is true. And the saying goes, we learn from our mistakes (supposedly), although I don't think that's entirely true as we see in the bible, humanity and even ourselves, we can repeat the same mistakes over and over and not learn much.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Is free-will ever really an informed choice?

Everyone has a conscience. It's a choice whether we listen to it or not.


Romans 2:14-15

14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.

 

[tturt]

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom 1:20

 

[Saint Steven]

But we know right from wrong. If we know Gods word it narrows down the choices. But we always have a choice- it’s a test. Somewhat of intuition. If we are led of the spirit we will not do the works of the flesh’. I’m kind of in agreement, but we are not lost. He is always bringing scripture to mind. God will not let us be ignorant unless we choose not to study.

Following the Bible, our God-given conscience, or the indwelling Spirit is always a good choice. But how informed are we?

I suppose this is where faith comes in.

Hebrews 11:8 NIV
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

 

[Saint Steven]

Adam and Eve were both informed clearly of the consequences of eating from the tree.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Did they know they were on the threshold of the Fall of humankind? That a perfect and sinless man would have to die to pay the penalty of death for them? Doubtful.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Following the Bible, our God-given conscience, or the indwelling Spirit is always a good choice. But how informed are we?

I suppose this is where faith comes in.

Hebrews 11:8 NIV
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

That is revelation though, not conscience. But it certainly makes you regret your mistake when you do have such a request from God like Abraham and fail from lack of knowledge of the bible.

 

[YahuahSaves]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

You're adding on here.
Adam and Eve were informed they would die if they ate of the fruit of the tree.
Why would anyone be informed of the fix for that mistake in advance? Makes no sense. We're dealing with conscience not foresight thousands of years into the future.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Did they know they were on the threshold of the Fall of humankind?

I don’t believe they truly knew the implications of "death" until after they had already disobeyed. God tells satan of his plan for salvation (in the presence of Adam and Eve perhaps?)

Genesis 3:14-15

14 Then the Lord God said to the serpent,

“Because you have done this, you are cursed
more than all animals, domestic and wild.
You will crawl on your belly,
groveling in the dust as long as you live.
15 And I will cause hostility between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He will strike[a] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

 

[David's Harp]

How informed were you when you decided to give your heart to Jesus? Did you know all of the theology you know now?
Perhaps faith doesn't require all the information.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is revelation though, not conscience. But it certainly makes you regret your mistake when you do have such a request from God like Abraham and fail from lack of knowledge of the bible.

You probably recall the story about Gideon's fleece. See the end of Judges chapter six.

 

[Saint Steven]

You're adding on here.
Adam and Eve were informed they would die if they ate of the fruit of the tree.
Why would anyone be informed of the fix for that mistake in advance? Makes no sense. We're dealing with conscience not foresight thousands of years into the future.

Adding on? A&E were informed? How so?