Is faith compatible with apologetics?

royal priest

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Part of the Christian religion is based on faith, and another part on evidence & reason then?
Most Christian's give a defense for Christianity based on their faith. They try to convince others based on their own inner, private subjective experience. But this isn't the best way to defend the faith.
 
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Neogaia777

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Most Christian's give a defense for Christianity based on their faith. They try to convince others based on their own inner, private subjective experience. But this isn't the best way to defend the faith.
Even if and when you think those things should be considered, it's probably just not going to get you anywhere, "at that time", it may take things more objective at first...

God Bless!
 
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Chriliman

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Part of the Christian religion is based on faith, and another part on evidence & reason then?

It’s the evidence and reason that produce the faith that we then rely on to maintain our walk with God.
 
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Tree of Life

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Can faith be rationally defended? If one engages in rational defense, does it not mean that faith is insufficient?

Faith is very compatible with apologetics. There are three kinds of apologetics:

1. Proof. This consists in supplying a positive "reason for the hope we have" within us. The Bible itself tells us we ought to do this.

2. Defense. This consists in defending the Christian faith from unbelieving objections. This can be helpful to silence unbelievers but also to defend and strengthen the faith of believers.

3. Offense. This consists in showing the inadequacies of non-Christian thought. This can be helpful in persuading non-Christians to consider Christian faith and also to strengthen the faith of believers.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I have heard some Christians argue that if God made things too obvious then humans would be deprived of the opportunity to take a leap of faith and gamble on Christianity - as though that leap of faith is a way to please God or distinguish the elect from the non-elect or something.
Egads, Cloudy! Whoever would do such a horrid thing as that! :dontcare:

Now consider childhood indoctrination. A child subjected to indoctrination by parents and culture is made to think that Christianity is much more plausible and sensible than it would seem to outsiders. This deprives the child of the opportunity to take that leap of faith and gamble on Christianity in the same way.
This isn't quite an equitable analogy, really, Cloudy. The reason I say this is that, as a parent myself, I'll admit that I've wanted to raise my child with the best possible educational attainments I thought were possible in ALL aspects of life, including those of involving religious ideology.

The caveat is that even after everything has been said and done me attempts to train up my child to the best of my ability for his advancement and success, even in relation to helping him form his thoughts about religion (particularly Christianity), he still has to eventually decide to make the Kierkegaardian jump of faith and/or the Pascalian style Wager.

The trick here, too, is to realize that the philosophically decisive acts of recommended by Kierkegaard and Pascal are to be done AFTER one becomes aware of at least a reasonable modicum of information about life, ethics, competing religious frameworks, as well as of evaluations about the state of religious belief versus disbelief. Otherwise, one can't decide to jump or wager. Without the counterpoints, there would be little or nothing to spring against to make the "religious jump"; and there would be no alternative possibilities to come into play when making the Wager.

I was also thinking about the possibility that Christianity is true. What might have made a tiny bit of sense to a first century Jew doesn't resonate with modern people at all. If Christianity is actually true then I would have to say "is this the best you could do, God?"
.........I think we all think this today to various degrees, Cloudy. But then, we have to take into account that the Bible offered the Jewish people books of meaning that they continued to relate with, even well into the 1st century, books like Job and Ecclesiastes which express figures who suffered existential angst not unlike we do today.
 
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cloudyday2

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The trick here, too, is to realize that the philosophically decisive acts of recommended by Kierkegaard and Pascal are to be done AFTER one becomes aware of at least a reasonable modicum of information about life, ethics, competing religious frameworks, as well as of evaluations about the state of religious belief versus disbelief. Otherwise, one can't decide to jump or wager. Without the counterpoints, there would be little or nothing to spring against to make the "religious jump"; and there would be no alternative possibilities to come into play when making the Wager.
The problem I see is that very few children are educated sufficiently to balance the childhood indoctrination of sitting in a pew at a young age listening to sermons or singing hymns and being told that a cup of wine is now the blood of Christ. Children often believe in Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer simply because their parents tell them. Things we believe from childhood become a part of our psyche at a very deep level and are not easily changed. We learn our values from childhood mostly, and many of those values come from watching parents trying to be good Christians.

In atheist forums there is a category called "non-theist" which is a sub-category of "atheist". These are the people who were raised in atheist families and escaped indoctrination. Usually non-theists are much more tolerant of religion than atheist converts such as ex-Christians. So it DOES make a difference whether a person is exposed to religion as a child.

.........I think we all think this today to various degrees, Cloudy. But then, we have to take into account that the Bible offered the Jewish people books of meaning that they continued to relate with, even well into the 1st century, books like Job and Ecclesiastes which express figures who suffered existential angst not unlike we do today.
Yep, but I guess there are a lot of other sources of wisdom outside the Bible. A Christian might put these few Jewish wisdom books on a pedestal and neglect other books of wisdom. IDK
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The problem I see is that very few children are educated sufficiently to balance the childhood indoctrination of sitting in a pew at a young age listening to sermons or singing hymns and being told that a cup of wine is now the blood of Christ. Children often believe in Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer simply because their parents tell them. Things we believe from childhood become a part of our psyche at a very deep level and are not easily changed. We learn our values from childhood mostly, and many of those values come from watching parents trying to be good Christians.
... so, by the pedagogical formula you're intuiting here, it seems that something like teaching our children through rote lessons anything----even the concept of 1 + 1 = 2----without competing voices in the mix to tell them otherwise, isn't a good thing.

As for the Santa analogy, I think it fails for the simple reason that there is more than enough incursion from outside 'voices' who tell children to re-think the Santa Proposition, and if not early on, then at some later point in their lives. Moreover, it remains that the outside voices themselves don't always account for the full reality of that which they discount and dismiss, such as they do with Santa. For instance, in my own case, I believed in Santa for a long time as a child. I believed ardently in Santa because not only did my parents tell me that Santa was on his way each Christmas eve, but at the age of 3(?), I woke in the middle of the night, and while all was silent and still, I heard the faint jingle of a jingel-bell. And I looked out my window to see what was the matter, and what to my wondering eyes did appear, but a little red dot in the sky, flying along on a night that was distinctly clear ... But then several years later, my 5th grade friend, Chuck, told me on one crisp December morning, while we milled around during recess near the chain-link swings, ".... Nah, there's no Santa, that's just your parents putting those gifts out under the tree!" And I cried.

So, in my case, two things happened: 1) I perpetuated my belief in Santa because I thought I had additional corroborating evidence, and 2) an alternate voice told me about a competing FRAMEWORK by which I reinterpreted the entire Santa scheme. Even so, ironically, I found out later that both options (1) & (2) were both wrong and/or incomplete in their explanatory power .................................

In atheist forums there is a category called "non-theist" which is a sub-category of "atheist". These are the people who were raised in atheist families and escaped indoctrination. Usually non-theists are much more tolerant of religion than atheist converts such as ex-Christians. So it DOES make a difference whether a person is exposed to religion as a child.
Are you sure atheistic children who are raised in atheistic households are 'escaping' indoctrination altogether? Is this the case in China? Is this a 'good' thing? I don't see how it is.

Yep, but I guess there are a lot of other sources of wisdom outside the Bible. A Christian might put these few Jewish wisdom books on a pedestal and neglect other books of wisdom. IDK
I'm sure they could, but there is no guarantee that any Christian WILL ignore all of the other competing voices in the world.....................................and there's no guarantee that what the Jewish people have handed off to us in regard to Jesus ISN'T somehow the most cogent religious insight that exists. :rolleyes:
 
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cloudyday2

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... so, by the pedagogical formula you're intuiting here, it seems that something like teaching our children through rote lessons anything----even the concept of 1 + 1 = 2----without competing voices in the mix to tell them otherwise, isn't a good thing.
I'm sure you will agree that we have more confidence that 1+1=2 than we have that Jesus even existed. I would say there is a 90% chance that the historic Jesus of Nazareth existed (although probably not like portrayed in the gospels). Maybe I should reserve some tiny sliver of doubt about 1+1=2, but as a practical matter I don't have any doubt.

If I was a Christian parent I would restrict the indoctrination of my children to the more provable features of Christianity. For example, forgiving those who wrong us is demonstrably beneficial in many cases. Anger can be corrosive, and it is often helpful to lay that burden of anger down. I might tell my children the basics of Christian dogma, but I would ALWAYS remind them that he supernatural claims might be untrue.

I believed ardently in Santa because not only did my parents tell me that Santa was on his way each Christmas eve, but at the age of 3(?), I woke in the middle of the night, and while all was silent and still, I heard the faint jingle of a jingel-bell. And I looked out my window to see what was the matter, and what to my wondering eyes did appear, but a little red dot in the sky, flying along on a night that was distinctly clear
Proof not only of Santa but of Rudolph too ;)

Are you sure atheistic children who are raised in atheistic households are 'escaping' indoctrination altogether? Is this the case in China? Is this a 'good' thing? I don't see how it is.
No, they are only escaping religious indoctrination. I'm thinking of a Gilligan's Island episode where they made a musical Hamlet "Neither are borrower nor a lender be. Do not forget stay out of debt. Think twice and take this good advice from me..." Indoctrination is part of parenting.

Ideally I think children should be raised in state-run boarding schools away from their parents. In fact children should be custom-made in test tubes to satisfy the projected economic requirements of the state. Then the state could uniformly indoctrinate the children with the best possible values.

One step further would be to eliminate humans altogether. At some point we are going to be unnecessary dead weight and the machines will gradually reduce our population to a bare minimum - perhaps whatever is necessary to stock the zoos.

I am joking (sort of) ;)
 
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Dirk1540

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no. It just means that faith comes as a response to the confluence of all that God decides to provide to any one individual ...
Is your depleted bank account compatible with your immense apologetics & philosophy library lol?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Is your depleted bank account compatible with your immense apologetics & philosophy library lol?

^_^ That's a million dollar question, isn't it?
 
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ananda

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Ok. 2 Cor 5:7 plays into what I'm saying because in the context in which this verse is situated, we understand from what Paul says that while we are alive we do not have direct, physical access to Jesus without His special revelation, but we do have the ministry of the Holy Spirit who gives us 'insight' into the truth of the Gospel of Christ. So, there is both a verbal, textual component that informs us and by which we active our minds toward having faith ALONG WITH AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH the spiritual component (or enlightenment) that is provided by the Spirit.
If you've received that insight, then you had a personal experience that others might not have had. Therefore, isn't apologetics useless in trying to reach others, if they haven't had that same personal, insightful experience?
 
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ananda

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Faith is very compatible with apologetics. There are three kinds of apologetics:

1. Proof. This consists in supplying a positive "reason for the hope we have" within us. The Bible itself tells us we ought to do this.

2. Defense. This consists in defending the Christian faith from unbelieving objections. This can be helpful to silence unbelievers but also to defend and strengthen the faith of believers.

3. Offense. This consists in showing the inadequacies of non-Christian thought. This can be helpful in persuading non-Christians to consider Christian faith and also to strengthen the faith of believers.
What is proof for one, might only be evidence to others.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you've received that insight, then you had a personal experience that others might not have had.
...yes, that's a good point!

Therefore, isn't apologetics useless in trying to reach others, if they haven't had that same personal, insightful experience?
That's an excellent question, ananda!

Yes, apologetics can be quite "useless," particularly for those who don't want to hear from God and/or who have their own existential agenda which they'd very much like to see played out in their lives. Of course, really, this is why Christians aren't supposed to spend all of their time 'doing' apologetics; no, they're supposed to be "loving and serving---being salt in a dying world" and thus produce evidences by which others might be helped to see the light that is in Christ Jesus the Lord.

Honestly, I don't claim to be the best example of either of these goals, but nevertheless I've been influenced by the way that Myron Bradley Penner addresses these kinds of questions in his book, The End of Apologetics.
 
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Chriliman

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Does this statement suggest that everyone must accept the same degree of evidence and reason?

I don’t think so. Everyone has varying degrees of sufficient evidence to cause them to believe.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Is your depleted bank account compatible with your immense apologetics & philosophy library lol?

...actually, I buy a lot of used and discount books. So, there is that. In fact, one of my main books on epistemology I got off of a clearance table at the used book store for a whopping 25 cents! And a few books I bought more recently at the Christian book store for $1 to $3 a piece, probably because there are a lot of people who just don't buy PhD level books. So, there's that, too. Regardless, most of the time I try to be somewhat frugal ...
 
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juvenissun

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Can faith be rationally defended? If one engages in rational defense, does it not mean that faith is insufficient?

Apologist does not defend his faith. He defends the attack of faith. The attack is never as good as the faith. So it is a much easier job.
 
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Most Christian's give a defense for Christianity based on their faith. They try to convince others based on their own inner, private subjective experience. But this isn't the best way to defend the faith.
So what is the best way to defend the faith?
 
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