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Celtic D
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So if you are not ruling out the possibility of a "deity" what is it that is stopping you from ruling out that possibility?
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I'm not ruling it out, I just think it's not likely, as it would probably have left some stronger evidence. With regard to the Bible, I rule it out as a reliable source because of two main arguments, the age of the earth, and the "suffering dilemma" (It has a proper name, but I'm not sure of it, essentially, if God is good, why does he allow so much suffering in the world. Either he's not powerful enough to stop it, or he isn't good enough to use his power to stop it. Either way, it contradicts the bible). And finally, there are so many creation myths out there, one has to do something pretty special in order for me to think it anything other than a myth. I've found nothing in the bible to elevate it above that level.
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Celtic D
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I don't know why God allows suffering - its a question I sometimes ask too - but it doesn't contradict the Bible per se 
Yes I agree that the creation story in the Bible is a myth (I am a Theistic Evolutionist), but it is allegorical. The Bible is NOT a scientific text book.
The Bible doesn't argue the age of the earth, in fact it doesn't argue anything. The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal God in the person of Christ (not to argue or prove His existance)
Yes I agree that the creation story in the Bible is a myth (I am a Theistic Evolutionist
), but it is allegorical. The Bible is NOT a scientific text book.The Bible doesn't argue the age of the earth, in fact it doesn't argue anything
. The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal God in the person of Christ (not to argue or prove His existance)
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ianb321red
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As a non-scientist I don't know enough about evolution to have strong opinion on whether it is a lie or not. Therefore, I usually stay well out of these types of discussions.
My real problem is with people who say that they do believe in evolution without knowing any of the details (..and I'm not saying anyone posting on this forum falls in to this category..). Plenty of people will quite happily embrace the whole concept of evolution, but when they are asked basic questions about evolution, they literally cannot answer them.
I'm not saying you need to be a scientist to understand the basics of evolution, but I have come across literally dozens of people who have quite simply accepted the theory of evolution on, erm....faith?
Which means they've not explored or understood the alternatives. Which means they haven't thought it through for themselves, and have simply embraced what can best be described as "common knowledge".
My own limited and non-scientific view is that I accept micro evolution as being biblical in the sense that we can observe and measure variation within certain limits. Now the scientific among you will cringe at my oversimplification - and that's fine, as I said I will freely admit that I am no expert on this subject.
Therefore, I don't think it is right to say that it is an outright lie because I believe there is certain truth within the theory that is compatible with Christian belief.
The perhaps more important question however, is to ask what affect the philosophy underpinning evolutionary thought has had on human behaviour over the past 150 years.....
My real problem is with people who say that they do believe in evolution without knowing any of the details (..and I'm not saying anyone posting on this forum falls in to this category..). Plenty of people will quite happily embrace the whole concept of evolution, but when they are asked basic questions about evolution, they literally cannot answer them.
I'm not saying you need to be a scientist to understand the basics of evolution, but I have come across literally dozens of people who have quite simply accepted the theory of evolution on, erm....faith?
Which means they've not explored or understood the alternatives. Which means they haven't thought it through for themselves, and have simply embraced what can best be described as "common knowledge".
My own limited and non-scientific view is that I accept micro evolution as being biblical in the sense that we can observe and measure variation within certain limits. Now the scientific among you will cringe at my oversimplification - and that's fine, as I said I will freely admit that I am no expert on this subject.
Therefore, I don't think it is right to say that it is an outright lie because I believe there is certain truth within the theory that is compatible with Christian belief.
The perhaps more important question however, is to ask what affect the philosophy underpinning evolutionary thought has had on human behaviour over the past 150 years.....
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ianb321red
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Yes, I realise that from a scientific point of view their is no qualitative difference between micro/ macro evolution. And I realise that micro evolution has been jumped on by young earth creationists (of which i am NOT one).
As a non-scientist, my acceptance of micro evolution however isn't based on any kind of scientific investigation - it's based what seems plausible to me intellectually i.e. I can see the many variations within species in front of my own eyes. Intellectually I cannot accept that humans have evolved from a singularity. There are too many unanswered questions to my mind......
Therefore, I will take the "risk" and reject evolution/ macro evolution in preference of a literal (but NOT young earth) account as described in Genesis. We are told enough in Genesis for us to know that the Lord created all life. Jesus also believed in this (see Mark 10:6). Rightly or wrongly, I don't personally want to have to start trawling through books on evolution and biology simply to justify my position on it.
We are NOT told enough enough in The Bible to know the finer details of how life began. It may well have been evolution, but we don't know this from the Bible.
So where does this literal belief in Genesis leave me as a Christian? It means that people who do believe in evolution think that I am an uneducated crank! That's fine, but as I've said before the truth is that the vast majority of people "believe" in evolution with probably less of an understanding than me - which is to say, very little!!
I'm not saying that evolution is an outright lie - there is probably some truth in it. But it's not the WHOLE truth. And it doesn't satisfy me intellectually in same way that not believing in God doesn't.
As a non-scientist, my acceptance of micro evolution however isn't based on any kind of scientific investigation - it's based what seems plausible to me intellectually i.e. I can see the many variations within species in front of my own eyes. Intellectually I cannot accept that humans have evolved from a singularity. There are too many unanswered questions to my mind......
Therefore, I will take the "risk" and reject evolution/ macro evolution in preference of a literal (but NOT young earth) account as described in Genesis. We are told enough in Genesis for us to know that the Lord created all life. Jesus also believed in this (see Mark 10:6). Rightly or wrongly, I don't personally want to have to start trawling through books on evolution and biology simply to justify my position on it.
We are NOT told enough enough in The Bible to know the finer details of how life began. It may well have been evolution, but we don't know this from the Bible.
So where does this literal belief in Genesis leave me as a Christian? It means that people who do believe in evolution think that I am an uneducated crank! That's fine, but as I've said before the truth is that the vast majority of people "believe" in evolution with probably less of an understanding than me - which is to say, very little!!
I'm not saying that evolution is an outright lie - there is probably some truth in it. But it's not the WHOLE truth. And it doesn't satisfy me intellectually in same way that not believing in God doesn't.
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Celtic D
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Hey Celtic...I know it's totally off the OP... but how is the accountability group going?
Well why did you not ask in that particular thread then?
I'm good thanks, I trust you are too
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ianb321red
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Tower Crane Driver
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How many people, when asked, would know details on the following:
Gravity
Relativity
Plate Tectonics
Volcanism
Computers
Mechanics
Etc, Etc...?
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Tower Crane Driver
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For arguments sake, if we accept that the universe is around 13 billion years old and the Earth is around 4.5 billion years old then evolution by natural selection has to be true.
No other hypothesis can possibly work.
If we accept that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and life originated around 3.5 billion years ago then Evolution by natural selection is the only proposition that answer all the questions and fills all the gaps.
1. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old and evolution is true
2. The Earth isn't that old, and therefore the argument should lie with geologists and theories of plate tectonics etc.
No other hypothesis can possibly work.
If we accept that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and life originated around 3.5 billion years ago then Evolution by natural selection is the only proposition that answer all the questions and fills all the gaps.
1. The Earth is 4.5 billion years old and evolution is true
2. The Earth isn't that old, and therefore the argument should lie with geologists and theories of plate tectonics etc.
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ianb321red
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Good point..but I feel that there is a difference!
Quite often the person(s) that I have conversed with on this subject more often that not use their acceptance of evolution as an alternative world view to differentiate themselves from a religious or more accurately, a Theist world view.
A typical conversation might go as follows:
Q - Do you believe in God?
A - No.
Q - Why not?
A - I don't need to!
Q - So how do you explain where we've come from then?
A - Evolution and science has all the answers to satisfy me..
And then when I ask something like "how did man breathe without fully developed lungs?" or "how did animals reproduce without fully developed sexual organs?"...the conversation tends to break down pretty quickly.
Now I wouldn't dare ask a scientist these types of questions because there is probably some neat, slick technical answer which would leave me speechless and embarrassed. However, it continues to prove my point that people accept and believe evolution on the basis of knowing very little about it.
Now the difference between an understanding of evolution and an understanding of computers/ volcanism / mechanics etc is that I feel that a belief in evolution is both an intellectual and a moral choice.
Evolution offers an answer to the age old philosophical questions man has been asking since he was aware of his own consciousness - namely why and how do I exist? And it offers, for many (but not all) a way of explaining their world view with the absence of a God.
Computers/ volcanism / mechanics - whilst interesting subjects I'm sure, do not really present us with this choice. I can ignore these subjects and not have to decide to "believe" in something else. There is no fundamental philosophical implication for not understanding volcanism. Evolution, I might suggest, tackles a far bigger issue....
But then if anything, I think your example shows that the secular world needs more faith at times than the religious world
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ianb321red
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Celtic D
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Some evolutionists are atheists, but I say again evolution DOES NOT EQUAL atheism!
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ianb321red
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I never actually said it did..
What I said was "And it offers, for many (but not all) a way of explaining their world view with the absence of a God."
And anyway there's another thread on that subject:
www christianforums com/t725547 (you'll have to fill in the dots as i don't have enough posts yet to post url's)
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