Is Evolution A Lie?

[Celtic D]

But what caused those laws to break down?

 

[Ar Cosc]

But what caused those laws to break down?

Well, things start to get awfully weird whenever you have a large concentration of matter and energy, like in a black hole. As for what caused the Big Bang, I don't know, nobody does. But I'll make a point again, one I've made in a few threads, 2000 years ago, people thought that lightning was a mystery that could only be explained with a God, others thought it was the sun, or the moon, 1000 years ago, it was disease, 200 years ago, it might have been electricity. As it turned out, none of these mysteries needed a god to exist in order to be explained, and I believe that the origin of life is no different.

 

[Celtic D]

I agree with what you say, up to your last point. In simple terms something had to "trigger" the "Big Bang" If universe was in equillibrium, nothing would happen - something had to "tip" that equillibrium to initiate the "Big Bang" - what tipped the equillibrium?

 

[artybloke]

Much as I'd love to say "it must have been God, mustn't it?" The answer "We don't yet know" is a better scientific answer than "let's just say it's God and stop asking question." People haven't actually been studying the early universe that long.

There is, by the way, quite a lot of work being done on the chemical history of how life may have started.

None of this means that God didn't create the world, whatever we mean by God, though it does rule out a literalist reading of Genesis pretty comprehensively.

 

[Celtic D]

If that was addressed to me artybloke, you are preaching to the converted, I am a scientist and a TE

One would hope that the little cross next to your name would define what you mean by "God" and the fact that this "God" was involved in the process

 

[welshman]

This always comes up. Man was thick but now in the present day we have evolved our understanding and are now the "enlightened" ones.

We still have no idea how the Egyptians made the great pyramid. While we can make skyscrapers, it is still a puzzle how they constructed such things when we think of them as a "primitive society"...

The Bible talks about the hydrological cycle, how the universe is expanding (only relatively recently discovered) etc...so I find any argument of ancient civilisations being scientifically inferior to us hard to take.

Well, things start to get awfully weird whenever you have a large concentration of matter and energy, like in a black hole. As for what caused the Big Bang, I don't know, nobody does. But I'll make a point again, one I've made in a few threads, 2000 years ago, people thought that lightning was a mystery that could only be explained with a God, others thought it was the sun, or the moon, 1000 years ago, it was disease, 200 years ago, it might have been electricity. As it turned out, none of these mysteries needed a god to exist in order to be explained, and I believe that the origin of life is no different.

 

[Ar Cosc]

I agree with what you say, up to your last point. In simple terms something had to "trigger" the "Big Bang" If universe was in equillibrium, nothing would happen - something had to "tip" that equillibrium to initiate the "Big Bang" - what tipped the equillibrium?

I don't know, but don't see the reason to believe it was Jehovah any more than I see a reason to believe it was Zeus or Odin.

This always comes up. Man was thick but now in the present day we have evolved our understanding and are now the "enlightened" ones.

We still have no idea how the Egyptians made the great pyramid. While we can make skyscrapers, it is still a puzzle how they constructed such things when we think of them as a "primitive society"...

The Bible talks about the hydrological cycle, how the universe is expanding (only relatively recently discovered) etc...so I find any argument of ancient civilisations being scientifically inferior to us hard to take.

That isn't exactly what I said. Man wasn't "thick", we just didn't have the cumulative scientific achievement of an extra few hundred years.

Just because we don't know how the Egyptians constructed the pyramids, doesn't mean they're some sort of miraculous mystery. There are several plausible theories as to how they could have built them using technology we know them to have had, just because we aren't sure exactly how they were put into effect doesn't make the Egyptians our technological equals.

And with the greatest of respect to your beliefs, I find that whenever someone says the Bible mentions certain scientific principles, it's generally based on reading certain verses selectively with a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

 

[welshman]

Here are a few off the top of my head...
There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor (Jonah 2:5-6). Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea.

Light can be divided (Job 38). Sir Isaac Newton studied light and discovered that white light is made of seven colors, which can be “parted” and then recombined. Science confirmed this four centuries ago – God declared this four thousand years ago.

The universe is expanding (Job 9; Isaiah 42; Jeremiah 52 (I think); Zech 12 all speak of this). Repeatedly God declares that He stretches out the heavens. During the early 20th century, most scientists (including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it should have collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929, astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were receding from the earth, and the further away they were, the faster they were moving. This discovery revolutionised the field of astronomy. Eisntein admitted his mistake, and today most astronomers agree with what the Bible told us thosands of years ago.

Make of that what you will. There are lots more that the Bible speaks about. I'll leave you to look them up yourself.

That isn't exactly what I said. Man wasn't "thick", we just didn't have the cumulative scientific achievement of an extra few hundred years.

Just because we don't know how the Egyptians constructed the pyramids, doesn't mean they're some sort of miraculous mystery. There are several plausible theories as to how they could have built them using technology we know them to have had, just because we aren't sure exactly how they were put into effect doesn't make the Egyptians our technological equals.

And with the greatest of respect to your beliefs, I find that whenever someone says the Bible mentions certain scientific principles, it's generally based on reading certain verses selectively with a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Here are a few off the top of my head...
There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor (Jonah 2:5-6). Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea.

It's a logical conclusion that the sea floor is not flat. Most people with any knowledge of the sea would have known that.

Light can be divided (Job 38). Sir Isaac Newton studied light and discovered that white light is made of seven colors, which can be “parted” and then recombined. Science confirmed this four centuries ago – God declared this four thousand years ago.

38:24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

Without speaking Ancient Hebrew, I wouldn't know the exact meaning of the original text, I think it is more likely that the original meaning is closer to "scattered", not divided.

The universe is expanding (Job 9; Isaiah 42; Jeremiah 52 (I think); Zech 12 all speak of this). Repeatedly God declares that He stretches out the heavens. During the early 20th century, most scientists (including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it should have collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929, astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were receding from the earth, and the further away they were, the faster they were moving. This discovery revolutionised the field of astronomy. Eisntein admitted his mistake, and today most astronomers agree with what the Bible told us thosands of years ago.

These verses generally refer to God "stretching the heavens", which are equally consistent with the belief (stated in other parts of the bible) that the sky is a "firmament", or canopy.


Not that these are necessarily the only, or right, explanations, but they are by no means conclusive proof that the ancient Israelites know anything we didn't.

 

[welshman]

Now who is the one using a "healthy dose of confirmation bias" ?
Don't mean it in an arrogant way at all...just pointing out it can work both ways

 

[Ar Cosc]

Now who is the one using a "healthy dose of confirmation bias" ?
Don't mean it in an arrogant way at all...just pointing out it can work both ways

I realise that, and I always try and keep an open mind

(And arrogant? This is probably the most polite a Bluebird has ever been to a Stoke supporter!!)

 

[artybloke]

Make of that what you will. There are lots more that the Bible speaks about. I'll leave you to look them up yourself.

Taking verses out of their context in ancient Hebrew poetry is just the kind of deceptive behaviour I'd expect from a member of the Creationist cult.

 

[welshman]

LOL comedy gold.

Taking verses out of their context in ancient Hebrew poetry is just the kind of deceptive behaviour I'd expect from a member of the Creationist cult.

 

[welshman]

Can't fault you my friend
As for you belittling the good and righteous name of my club (tongue in cheek)...We were actually voted "Family Club of the Year" for 2011 by the Football League. Yes...I am as amazed as you are! lol How times have changed (for the better I may add!)

I realise that, and I always try and keep an open mind

(And arrogant? This is probably the most polite a Bluebird has ever been to a Stoke supporter!!)

 

[Ar Cosc]

Can't fault you my friend
As for you belittling the good and righteous name of my club (tongue in cheek)...We were actually voted "Family Club of the Year" for 2011 by the Football League. Yes...I am as amazed as you are! lol How times have changed (for the better I may add!)

Only because Stoke are now in the Prem!

Don't worry, we'll stick a goal or six past Swansea for you

 

[uberd00b]

There is nothing like creationism for demonstrating the pitfalls of the vice of faith. If you're going to "just believe" something that does not appear to be true then in extremis you may start to believe something which is demonstrably untrue (and become convinced that this is a virtue).

 

[welshman]

Just six?! If we beat our little sisters down west by 10 it wouldn't be enough

Only because Stoke are now in the Prem!

Don't worry, we'll stick a goal or six past Swansea for you

 

[Celtic D]

There is nothing like creationism for demonstrating the pitfalls of the vice of faith. If you're going to "just believe" something that does not appear to be true then in extremis you may start to believe something which is demonstrably untrue (and become convinced that this is a virtue).

While there is no love lost between me and the fairytale that is creationism it does not demonstrate the pitfalls of the vice of faith. Faith is so much bigger than the mechanics of how the world started. The mechanics of creation is not a salvation issue - accepting Christ as your Lord and Saviour is.

I believe in a past life you chose to display a Christian icon uberd00b, what happened?

 

[Celtic D]

I don't know, but don't see the reason to believe it was Jehovah any more than I see a reason to believe it was Zeus or Odin.

So you believe that a "deity" of some description was involved?

 

[Ar Cosc]

So you believe that a "deity" of some description was involved?

I'm not ruling it out, because that would be dishonest. However, I don't think it's at all necessary for that deity, if it exists, to be even remotely concerned with mankind. And, of course, it needn't be all-powerful, or all-knowing, or relevant to the universe at all after the moment of creation.