Is evolution a fact or theory?

[The Barbarian]

Somehow most people can't see that, they just take what ever they learned from books or told by so called authorities without doubt.

You, for example, believed some ICR writer when they told you that there are no observed cases of chromosome fusion.

All you had to do was search the literature, and you'd find them. Instead of taking the word of some self-proclaimed "authority", all you had to do was see for yourself.

 

[dcalling]

Let's take a look at one of the citations I left you:
One of the anomalies that affects fertility in cattle is called a Robertsonian translocation. This type of translocation was named after a person called Robertson from Scotland. Because cattle autosomes always have their centromere at the end, two chromosomes can fuse at the centromere and result in 1 larger bi-armed chromosome with a Robertsonian translocation. This also changes the chromosome number in cattle with this to 59 instead of 60. This fusion or Robertsonian translocation does not alter any genes, just alters the position of such genes. Therefore carriers of such translocations look perfectly normal.


The most common type of Robertsonian translocation in cattle is the t(1;29) which is a fusion of a chromosome 1 (the largest of the autosomes) with a chromosome 29 (the smallest of the chromosomes). This translocation has been shown to occur in most beef breeds which came from the European continent. It therefore is either very old or arose many times or most likely, both.


The second most common Robertsonian translocation in cattle is the t(14;20) which has primarily been seen only in Simmental cattle. It is very rare, occuring in less than 1% of Simmentals.

It's just a fact. There are more examples in the literature, but these are sufficient to debunk the ICR claims.


Read the links. I cut and pasted one here for you.

If you did read the icr article, http://www.icr.org/article/new-research-debunks-human-chromosome/, you will see that it talks about telomere to telomere binding on human chromsome 2, your article is talking about Robertsonian translocation, which is chromosomes fuse at centromere.

I am not sure if you are intentionally trying to muddle the water or you just don't understand the topic.

Now, what about my question "Do you have any repeatable, verifiable test that show in nature the same fusion can happen"?

 

[Saintly Sinner]

Is there are proof of either?

Evolution is probably true. Doesn't mean there wasn't an Eden or Adam

 

[The Barbarian]

(Goal posts shifted again)

So now the new line of defense is "O.K, chromosome fusions are a fact, but I want to see a telomere to telomere fusion."

O.K., let's see...

Nucleic Acids Res. 2013 Mar; 41(5): 3056–3067.
Spontaneous telomere to telomere fusions occur in unperturbed fission yeast cells

Looking forward to the next movement. Meantime, the evidence for this fusion in humans is overwhelming:

The first big discovery came in 1982, when scientists looked at the patterns of bands on human and ape chromosomes. Chromosomes have a distinctive structure in their middle, called acentromere, and their tips are calledtelomeres. The scientists reported that the banding pattern surrounding the centromere on human chromosome 2 bore a striking resemblance to the telomeres at the ends of two separate
shorter chromosomes in chimpanzees and gorillas. They proposed that in the hominid lineage, the ancestral forms of those two chromosomes had fused together to produce one chromosome. The chromosomes weren’t lost, just combined.

Other researchers followed up on this hypothesis with experiments of their own. In 1991, a team of scientists managedto sequence the genetic material in a small portion of the centromere region of chromosome 2. They found a distinctivestretches of DNA that is common in telomeres, supporting the fusion hypothesis. Since then, scientists have been able to study the chromosome in far more detail, and everything they’ve found supports the idea that the chromosomes fused.

In this 2002 paper, for example, scientists at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center reported discovering duplicates of DNA from around the fusion site in other chromosomes. Millions of years before
our chromosome 2 was born, portions of the ancestral chromosomes were accidentally duplicated and then relocated to other places in the genome of our ancestors. And this past April[2005], scientists published the entire sequence of chromosome 2 andwere able to pinpoint the vestiges of the centromeres of the ancestral chromosomes–which are similar, as predicted, to the centromeres of the corresponding chromosomes in chimpanzees.
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/ChromShuffle.pdf

 

[anx66]

Proof of either what?

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. It is a fact that existing life forms have evolved from ancestral life forms and share common ancestry. There is also a large body of theory that explains how and why evolution has occurred.

I guess how I understand it, evolution is a fact and a theory, but how God used evolution is up for debate. I'm not a materialist, so I don't believe that evolution is totally guided by natural selection/random mutations. I guess that there must have been some kind of God given guidance (excuse the alliteration). I don't go with the God created everything, like some omnipotent magician, but I'm open to discussion about that particular hypothesis.

One of the reasons that I think everything happened over a greater period of time than the YEC maintain, is not based on evolution at all, but comes from images like those taken by the Hubble space telescope. I see galaxies colliding and I think to myself, these events must take a massive amount of time to occur, and therefore God would be misleading astronomers, if they were actually instantly created.

 

[sfs]

I guess how I understand it, evolution is a fact and a theory, but how God used evolution is up for debate.

Sure. That question lies wholly outside the scope of science.

 

[GenemZ]

Sure. That question lies wholly outside the scope of science.

And, its seems..sad to say. Too often, science lies outside the scope of God.

Science is after all the study of God's creation. That creation is too awesome for certain scientists to admit how insignificant their intellects are in comparison to whomever designed and created what they study. So? They arrogantly push the artist out of the gallery in their desire to receive the praise for the work on display they claim is now in their possession, in seeking to satisfy their approbation lust by peer review presentations with their name tacked on it.

 

[The Barbarian]

And, its seems..sad to say. Too often, science lies outside the scope of God.

Science is after all the study of God's creation. That creation is too awesome for certain scientists to admit how insignificant their intellects are in comparison to whomever designed and created what they study.

If you think so, you don't know any scientists. They are much more aware than most other people, as to how little we actually know about the universe.

So? They arrogantly push the artist out of the gallery in their desire to receive the praise for the work on display they claim is now in their possession, in seeking to satisfy their approbation lust by peer review presentations with their name tacked on it.

You think they do it to impress others? Seriously? Have you never noticed how scientists dress?

 

[GenemZ]

When the serpent lost its legs in the Garden it was NOT evolution.

I have a doctrinal theory based upon what we can know concerning the Lord instantly transforming the serpent.

When the Lord scattered mankind away from the Tower of Babel by separating them with speaking new languages? God evidently did the same thing with men that he did when the serpent lost his legs... For the Lord also transformed men as they settled into different parts of the world to take on physical attributes that would enable them to acclimated to wherever they found themselves settling. Its why we see different skin types... different eyes...etc, that work perfectly for what became their native lands. It was not evolution. The serpent being transformed into crawling on his scuts (minus having once had legs) happened very quickly.

So much for the theory.

 

[The Barbarian]

When the serpent lost its legs in the Garden it was NOT evolution.

It wasn't even an event. The Bible doesn't say that the serpent ever had legs.

When the Lord scattered mankind away from the Tower of Babel by separating them with speaking new languages? God evidently did the same thing with men that he did when the serpent lost his legs... For the Lord also transformed men as they settled into different parts of the world to take on physical attributes that would enable them to acclimated to wherever they found themselves settling.

Turns out, the earliest known people in England had dark skins. Over time, they evolved fair skins. Your theory doesn't seem to work.

The serpent being transformed into crawling on his scuts (minus having once had legs) happened very quickly.

Again, the story doesn't say the serpent had legs at any time.

So much for your theory.

 

[dcalling]

(Goal posts shifted again)

So now the new line of defense is "O.K, chromosome fusions are a fact, but I want to see a telomere to telomere fusion."

O.K., let's see...

Nucleic Acids Res. 2013 Mar; 41(5): 3056–3067.
Spontaneous telomere to telomere fusions occur in unperturbed fission yeast cells

Looking forward to the next movement. Meantime, the evidence for this fusion in humans is overwhelming:

The first big discovery came in 1982, when scientists looked at the patterns of bands on human and ape chromosomes. Chromosomes have a distinctive structure in their middle, called acentromere, and their tips are calledtelomeres. The scientists reported that the banding pattern surrounding the centromere on human chromosome 2 bore a striking resemblance to the telomeres at the ends of two separate
shorter chromosomes in chimpanzees and gorillas. They proposed that in the hominid lineage, the ancestral forms of those two chromosomes had fused together to produce one chromosome. The chromosomes weren’t lost, just combined.

Other researchers followed up on this hypothesis with experiments of their own. In 1991, a team of scientists managedto sequence the genetic material in a small portion of the centromere region of chromosome 2. They found a distinctivestretches of DNA that is common in telomeres, supporting the fusion hypothesis. Since then, scientists have been able to study the chromosome in far more detail, and everything they’ve found supports the idea that the chromosomes fused.

In this 2002 paper, for example, scientists at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center reported discovering duplicates of DNA from around the fusion site in other chromosomes. Millions of years before
our chromosome 2 was born, portions of the ancestral chromosomes were accidentally duplicated and then relocated to other places in the genome of our ancestors. And this past April[2005], scientists published the entire sequence of chromosome 2 andwere able to pinpoint the vestiges of the centromeres of the ancestral chromosomes–which are similar, as predicted, to the centromeres of the corresponding chromosomes in chimpanzees.
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/ChromShuffle.pdf

Well, you failed to understand the original article (and so was the refutal from the 2 student pages you quoted), and that is why you think the goal post is shifting. If you read the original article, you will see clearly that it refers to telomer to telomere fusion, and the icr article is stating why such such fusions are unlikely in nature.

Now let's go back to your link. Your link actually serve as a great evidence for the icr article. Did you read your link? Did you see how many steps and how hard it is to create the fussion for the yeast cells? Is that even possible in nature (let alone the human DNA which is much more complex)? It is all proven that telomere to telomere fussion is next to impossible in nature, can only be archived in laboratory like conditions.

Edit: Here is the linked for how we engineered the yeast tel-tel fussion: https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/41/5/3056/2414609
Here is the original icr article:http://www.icr.org/article/new-research-debunks-human-chromosome/
Here is the article from phys.org showing how recent DNA research shows how thing might got created around the same time. https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html

It is quite amazing, the more we learn, the more we found the Bible is correct.

 

[dcalling]

Turns out, the earliest known people in England had dark skins. Over time, they evolved fair skins. Your theory doesn't seem to work.

I am going to answer this for @genez , If what you said is true, it just shows how we were all one people from tower of Babel, where it is hot and we all got dark skins. And as God designed us to be "configurable" like any other software, after people migrated to cooler places they either adjusted naturally or God helped them to adjust. Fits perfectly.

 

[The Barbarian]

I am going to answer this for @genez , If what you said is true, it just shows how we were all one people from tower of Babel,

Long before Babylon, humans had separated. Neanderrtals, for example, had light skins, and probably red hair, from the genetic information we have found.

where it is hot and we all got dark skins. And as God designed us to be "configurable" like any other software,

That's what evolution is, after all.

after people migrated to cooler places they either adjusted naturally

Nice try. But that early Englishman also had blue eyes. Sorry. As people migrated north, natural selection would favor lighter skins (because of vitamin D), but it's not a sure thing. Inuits live farther north than any other human population, but have dark skins, because their diet was traditionally rich in vitamin D. Natural selection didn't favor light skins for them.

[quote[or God helped them to adjust.[/quote]

That's why He created evolution.

Well, you failed to understand the original article

You first argued that we don't know of any chromosome fusions. As you just learned, chromosome fusions are well-known. After you then argued that only centromere fusions were known, I showed you examples of telomere fusions. When I showed you that, you shifted the story to "you don't understand."

and that is why you think the goal post is shifting.

Go figure.

If you read the original article, you will see clearly that it refers to telomer to telomere fusion, and the icr article is stating why such such fusions are unlikely in nature.

Chromosome fusions without health affects are not common, but as you learned, such telomere fusions are known to happen. Prezwalski's horse is such an example. The most common human chromosome fusion is trisomy 21, in which a telomere fusion occurs between chromosomes 14 and 21.

In over 200,000 generations, a fusion without health consequences seems to have happened once in humans. Rather rare, but they do happen.

Fits perfectly.

Yep.

 

[dcalling]

Long before Babylon, humans had separated. Neanderrtals, for example, had light skins, and probably red hair, from the genetic information we have found.



That's what evolution is, after all.



Nice try. But that early Englishman also had blue eyes. Sorry. As people migrated north, natural selection would favor lighter skins (because of vitamin D), but it's not a sure thing. Inuits live farther north than any other human population, but have dark skins, because their diet was traditionally rich in vitamin D. Natural selection didn't favor light skins for them.


That's why He created evolution.



You first argued that we don't know of any chromosome fusions. As you just learned, chromosome fusions are well-known. After you then argued that only centromere fusions were known, I showed you examples of telomere fusions. When I showed you that, you shifted the story to "you don't understand."



Go figure.



Chromosome fusions without health affects are not common, but as you learned, such telomere fusions are known to happen. Prezwalski's horse is such an example. The most common human chromosome fusion is trisomy 21, in which a telomere fusion occurs between chromosomes 14 and 21.

In over 200,000 generations, a fusion without health consequences seems to have happened once in humans. Rather rare, but they do happen.



Yep.

OK, I am quoting my original post here word for word and let's see who is goal shifting.

I have talked this with either you or Kom before, this 'fusion' is not as simple as you thought and it might hurt your case: http://www.icr.org/article/new-research-debunks-human-chromosome/ "In 2002, 614,000 bases of DNA surrounding the fusion site were fully sequenced, revealing that the alleged fusion sequence was in the middle of a gene originally classified as a pseudogene because there was not yet any known function for it.5,6 The research also showed that the genes surrounding the fusion site in the 614,000-base window did not exist on chimp chromosomes 2A or 2B—the supposed ape origins location. In genetics terminology, we call this discordant gene location a lack of synteny."

Do you have any repeatable, verifiable test that show in nature the same fusion can happen? In fact detailed study has shown this is not a fusion that we have seen, and it is in question if this can indeed happen in nature.

In my first paragraph I am quoting the article, which are talking about the human chromosome 2 fussion that you addressed earlier. And in my paragrah I said "same fusion can happen?", which clearly is talking about chromosome 2 fussion. Then you tried to move it to just chromsome fussion. I hope it is clear now.


Edit: Actualy after I went to find the original post, you were not talking about human chromsome 2 fussion, and I just assumed you were talking about it (since I discuss it a lot with others such as @KomatiiteBIF so I got automatically turned to it). But however if you read the icr article, you should see the icr article is talking about telomer to telomer fusion in human chromsome 2, and not just any fussion, and the 2 so called debunk article are totally moot.

 

[The Barbarian]

In my first paragraph I am quoting the article, which are talking about the human chromosome 2 fussion that you addressed earlier. And in my paragrah I said "same fusion can happen?", which clearly is talking about chromosome 2 fussion. Then you tried to move it to just chromsome fussion. I hope it is clear now.

Of course. As you now realize, any two chromosomes can fuse. I gave you a good number of examples of such fusion.

Originally, it was hypothesized that there was a fusion in humans, because one human chromosome looks almost exactly like two ape chromosomes fused together. Later on, examination of the chromosome revealed remains of telomeres right where they would be if chromosomes 2 and 14 had fused.

 

[GenemZ]

I am going to answer this for @genez , If what you said is true, it just shows how we were all one people from tower of Babel, where it is hot and we all got dark skins. And as God designed us to be "configurable" like any other software, after people migrated to cooler places they either adjusted naturally or God helped them to adjust. Fits perfectly.

If God did not do it quickly man would have died before he could evolve to his new environment. And, man would not want to be where the Lord was scattering them to unless he was instantly acclimated. God wants separate peoples at this time.

God wants separate nations to keep Satan's grimy hands off controlling the world. The price to pay for that need to protect man, sometimes comes out in racism.

Yet, in Christ? Those barriers are removed. For we all should know that what we see with our eyes when looking at another has been crucified with Christ. Our souls is what has been saved. To receive a new glorious everlasting body that will be of the same substance as His own glorious body.

Then he will look at His church and say...

" Now! This is bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh. "

We will be transformed into one type of male and female body. Just as Eve was the same body as Adam.

Keep in mind, in Genesis 1:27? It was the soul that God created in His image... not the body. For, the body for the soul was not provided for until later, after God had finished all His creating in Genesis One.

 

[pat34lee]

Of course, they are passed on. How would reproduction undo a chromosome fusion?

If you could change chromosomes in 99% of the cells in your body and didn't
change the gametes, those changes die with you. They are the only cells that
matter when it comes to reproduction and passing down genes.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is why chromosome fusions aren't more common. The only mutations that count for evolution are those that occur to sperm or eggs.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Evolution is probably true. Doesn't mean there wasn't an Eden or Adam

Evolution very clearly talks about Eden and Adam. Science (time magazine) uses these Bible words (Adam - Eden) for a VERY good reason. Eden for Science could be any of the many biodiverse ecosystems we read about in our Biology books. For science Eden was the ecosystem that Science Adam and Eve came from back in Africa before they came out of Africa around 43,000 years ago. The Eden we read about in our Bible has to do with the neolithic revolution where we find many many many beginnings 6,000 years ago. The beginning of domesticated plants and animals, the beginning of civilization and cities. The beginning of recorded history. Science Adam and Eve goes back a lot further. Still the basic principle is the same in the evolutionary theory of common ancestor.

For those who want to do the math each day is half the length of the day before. So we being with the break up of Pangea, we go 7 days and that takes us to the beginning of Humans. We then go another 7 days and takes us to when Humans came up out of Africa. The artifacts we find at the time (43,000 years ago) are fishing hooks, sowing needles and fishing nets. Man needed clothing to survive in the colder climate north of Africa. He must have stuck close to rivers and the water so he could live off of fish and also the animals they would eat stay close to the water.

I grew up close to the river here and the trails I walked on as a child have been there for at least 12,000 years. They were made by the animals and the humans that followed after the animals to hunt them for food. There was actually an elaborate set of trails along with caves and natural shelters where the hunter gathers could find a place with protection from the elements to set up their camp sites.

 

[GenemZ]

It is not .. "Is evolution a fact or theory?"

The real question not asked..... "The Word of God, truth or fiction?"

Those who have not had a genuine encounter with God's Spirit can not know.

So, they get their oar into the water as to not allow someone else have any control over their lives. They set up their own idol to their liking and worship it.

Of course, they would never call it worship. Because, they do not know what worship is. To worship God is to CONCENTRATE on God. Not to go through some ritual and follow some man-made religious protocol.