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Is Everything That Happens God’s Will?

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justinstout

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Bill777 said:
I re-edited my post. Please re-read. I wrote about God's work in Africa as well as an example of scriptural suffering.

Scriptural suffering comes as a result of preaching the Gospel.
That's the only suffering that's talked about, in the New Testament, that glorifies God.

Yet people are claiming other suffering as "glorifying God".
Sickness and disease does not glorify God.
 
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WAB

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So... if everything that happens is because God willed it so, then all of the sins that Moses, David, Peter et. al. committed (will not take the space to list them here, but they are well known and presented in detail in the Scriptures) were predestined by the God who unequivocally forbade those very sins. Duh...
WAB
 
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JimfromOhio

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justinstout said:
Scriptural suffering comes as a result of preaching the Gospel.
That's the only suffering that's talked about, in the New Testament, that glorifies God.

Yet people are claiming other suffering as "glorifying God".
Sickness and disease does not glorify God.

After reading many of your posts, I really can see that you are following the teachings of Word of Faith which they typically are very selective in scriptures and doctrines.

We cannot deny that God allows suffering and pain to continue in our world. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9) God does answer our prayers, but not always in the way that we would have liked. God’s plan for our lives is to form us more and more into the image of his Son.

Through out my Christian life, I ask myself: "How does God want me to respond to this suffering?" The Bible clearly teaches that contentment does not require comfort. Our society and some practices teaches us that the only way to contentment is through comfort, convenience, and being pain free. Therefore I am content with weaknesses, disabilties and illnesses for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10 ) "I know what it is to have little, and I know what it is to have plenty. In any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of being well-fed and of going hungry, of having plenty and of being in need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me." (Philippians 4:12-13)

My faith and my life, I am very realistic about my life. That I understand my role as a Christian. I like this quote by Paul Little "Faith recognizes the fact that God is in control of my life. Whether I believe it or not, it's a fact that God is in control of the world. If I don't believe it, I'm just robbing myself of the enjoyment of the fact."

This is my last post to any of your posts. I getting tired of this. Have a good night.
 
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justinstout

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JimfromOhio said:
After reading many of your posts, I really can see that you are following the teachings of Word of Faith which they typically are very selective in scriptures and doctrines.

We cannot deny that God allows suffering and pain to continue in our world.
God "allows" many things to continue in this world that I can promise you are not His will. People are murdered every single day, against God's perfect plan for their lives. Unborn babies are slaughtered every single day, against God's will for their lives. Strife and division exist within the Body of Christ, against the will of God. People are caught up in unbiblical doctrines of men and false concepts of God, absolutely against His will. He doesn't stop these things from taking place, simply because He gave mankind the authority on this earth. We have a free will and we have the power to choose how we are going to live our lives. If God simply chooses how everyone is going to live their lives, then we are nothing but mere worthless robots or puppets on strings. Nothing could be further from the truth. That's nothing but a slap in God's face.

JimfromOhio said:
"My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9) God does answer our prayers, but not always in the way that we would have liked. God’s plan for our lives is to form us more and more into the image of his Son.

Through out my Christian life, I ask myself: "How does God want me to respond to this suffering?" The Bible clearly teaches that contentment does not require comfort. Our society and some practices teaches us that the only way to contentment is through comfort, convenience, and being pain free. Therefore I am content with weaknesses, disabilties and illnesses for the sake of Christ; for whenever I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10 ) "I know what it is to have little, and I know what it is to have plenty. In any and all circumstances I have learned the secret of being well-fed and of going hungry, of having plenty and of being in need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me." (Philippians 4:12-13)

My faith and my life, I am very realistic about my life. That I understand my role as a Christian. I like this quote by Paul Little "Faith recognizes the fact that God is in control of my life. Whether I believe it or not, it's a fact that God is in control of the world. If I don't believe it, I'm just robbing myself of the enjoyment of the fact."

This is my last post to any of your posts. I getting tired of this. Have a good night.

After reading many of your posts I can tell that you have been sucked into the false doctrine of unscriptural suffering. You hold God responsible for your problems and pain, rather than holding yourself and the fall of man responsible. Your ridiculous concepts of God turn people away from God, not to God.

You have accepted the work of the devil and the products of a fallen world in your life as "God's will". Nothing could be further from the truth.

May you somehow find the truth and be set free by the power (grace) of God.
 
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linssue55

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justinstout said:
Although Job knew that the calamity that had befallen him was not due to sin in his life, he did not understand why God (the only possible source of his suffering based on his understanding of life) had afflicted him. Throughout the Book of Job, he continues to ask God, “Why me?” and often does so very angrily.

Does God answer Job’s questions? Not in Job’s lifetime, nor throughout the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Christ, however, taught truths that do answer Job’s questions. Kushner has some excellent insight on the record of Job:





To try to understand the book and its answer, let us take note of three statements which everyone in the book, and most of the readers, would like to be able to believe:




A. God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.

B. God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

C. Job is a good person.

As long as Job is healthy and wealthy, we can believe all three of those statements at the same time with no difficulty. When Job suffers, when he loses his possessions, his family and his health, we have a problem. We can no longer make sense of all three propositions together. We can now affirm any two only by denying the third.

If God is both just and powerful, then Job must be a sinner who deserves what is happening to him. If Job is good but God causes his suffering anyway, then God is not just. If Job deserved better and God did not send his suffering, then God is not all-powerful. We can see the argument of the Book of Job as an argument over which of the three statements we are prepared to sacrifice, so that we can keep on believing in the other two.

Job’s friends are prepared to stop believing in (C), the assertion that Job is a good person. They want to believe in God as they have been taught to. They want to believe that God is good and that God is in control of things. And the only way they can do that is to convince themselves that Job deserves what is happening to him.

Job, for his part, is unwilling to hold the world together theologically by admitting that he is a villain. He knows a lot of things intellectually, but he knows one thing more deeply. Job is absolutely sure that he is not a bad person. He may not be perfect, but he is not so much worse than others, by any intelligible moral standard, that he should deserve to lose his home, his children, his wealth and health while other people get to keep all those things. And he is not prepared to lie to save God’s reputation.

Job’s solution is to reject proposition (B), the affirmation of God’s goodness. Job is in fact a good man, but God is so powerful that He is not limited by considerations of fairness and justice.




Kushner correctly states that Job considered himself an innocent victim and that Job thought that God afflicts both the righteous and unrighteous. Often Job attested to his own innocence. He said, “I had not denied the words of the Holy One” (Job 6:10b); “Show me where I have been wrong” (Job 6:24); “I am blameless” (Job 9:21); “You [God] know that I am not guilty” (Job 10:7); “Can anyone bring charges against me? If so, I will be silent and die” (Job 13:19); “As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice” (Job 27:2); and “Let God weigh me in honest scales and He will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6). Job made his case that God does whatever He pleases and afflicts both the innocent and the guilty: “...I say, He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:22).




Under this assumption, Job wished there were a mediator or an umpire that could help him out. “If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both” (Job 9:33). Of course, no umpire or mediator appears. What does appear is a storm, and God Himself speaking from it (Job 38:1). What did God say to Job in answer to his pleading questions? Well, one thing is clear— God did not give Job any reason for the problems besetting him.

Many theologians and Bible teachers rightly point out that God never gave Job an answer to the question of [why he was suffering]: “...God never answers question one about Job’s predicament...” “With all due respect to the many capable and godly preachers and writers who have taught that the major question as addressed in Job is why do the righteous suffer, we note that if this is the question, it is never answered in the Book of Job.”

Why not? Because the truth about the Devil as the source of human suffering was not revealed in the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ who first openly revealed the true source of mankind’s suffering.

Interestingly enough, Rabbi Kushner comes to the same conclusion we do, that proposition (A) is the proposition that is in error — “God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.” We do not, however, agree with his overall understanding of the book of Job, by which he arrives at this conclusion. We arrive at our conclusion from the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Nonetheless, we applaud Kushner’s insight about people’s reaction to this conclusion. He states:





There may be a sense of loss at coming to this conclusion. In a way, it was comforting to believe in an all-wise, all-powerful God who guaranteed fair treatment and happy endings, who reassured us that everything happened for a reason, even as life was easier for us when we could believe that our parents were wise enough to know what to do and strong enough to make everything turn out right. But it was comforting the way the religion of Job’s friends was comforting: it worked only as long as we did not take the problems of innocent victims seriously. When we have met Job, when we have been Job, we cannot believe in that sort of God any longer without giving up our own right to feel angry, to feel that we have been treated badly by life.







The New Testament makes it crystal clear that not everything that happens is God’s will. For example, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God’s will would be done on earth (Matthew 6:10). If everything that happens is God’s will, such prayer is superfluous. In Romans 1:10, Paul said he prayed for “a prosperous journey in the will of God” to see the believers there. Another meaningless prayer? No. The will of God for an individual, whether revealed in the written Word of God or by direct revelation, generally comes to pass only when that person understands it and, by his own , acts accordingly.




Rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we must make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it. God’s will, for example, is that people do not steal, but rather that they work to earn what they need (Ephesians 4:28). Very simple. We just do what He says. But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience. What a travesty of logic!

Going a step further then, if it is so easy for us humans to disobey God, what about the Devil and his spirit army? Can humans sin by choice while evil spirits cannot? Obviously spirit beings can sin, since sin was the reason the Devil and his hosts were thrown out of God’s presence to begin with. Via Adam’s sin, the Devil was legally given authority over the earth. The Devil did not and does not obey God. The Devil has been sinning for a long time (1 John 3:8). The Devil is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and a thief (John 10:10).

Justinandout...............


This is the same OP as your last one....apparently you didn't listen to all the sound doctrine in your last OP on the same subject. You are in denial on the plan of God for all our lives, and I honestly don't think you even like God, for you CANNOT accept Him as He truly is. "His will be done". Period.... I think you just like to argue the same topic over and over. Now if this was me, and I was so POSITIVE, as you state you are on "It's not God's will",....well I certainly wouldn't constanly be putting it out there for discussion and debate over and over again......either you must have doubt's of your beliefs, OR you just like to argue, over, and over.

People are giving you pearls here, but you are so negative to sound doctrine, and the verses presented to you here, you find fault in all of it. God is trying to open your eyes, through HIS word, and you have of your own free will closed your eyes to it, stiffened your neck, and refuse to let it in. This is to your own peril I assure you, from the word of God, "Those who seek the work's of the flesh (emotion, denial, self serving prophesies) instead of sound doctrine, will not recieve rewards in eternity". This is an old and dead subject. I am out of here. :wave:
 
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cg1970

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justinstout said:
Claiming that everything that happens is God's will is holding God ultimately responsible for every wicked and evil thing that has ever taken place. Claiming that God's will automatically comes to pass is ultimately blaming God for every sin, perversion, sickness, disease, and calamity that has ever taken place.

Justin, you have GREAT WISDOM!

 
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justinstout

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cg1970 said:
Justin, you have GREAT WISDOM!

Thank you so much, cg1970.


It's about time someone says something nice about a guy who is simply defending God's love and goodness. Everyone seems to bash me simply because I do not hold God responsible for evil, sin, and suffering.

Some people say, "How can you trust a God who doesn't control everything that happens?" And I say, "How can you trust a God that does?"
How can someone trust a God that supposedly sends demons and cancer to "teach His children a lesson" ?



You are blessed!
 
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justinstout said:
Thank you so much, cg1970.


It's about time someone says something nice about a guy who is simply defending God's love and goodness. Everyone seems to bash me simply because I do not hold God responsible for evil, sin, and suffering.

Some people say, "How can you trust a God who doesn't control everything that happens?" And I say, "How can you trust a God that does?"
How can someone trust a God that supposedly sends demons and cancer to "teach His children a lesson" ?



You are blessed!

All I can say is that some folks worship a completely different God than you and I do.

They must believe that God wills all the millions of abortions that have happened over the past 40 some years.

I will stick with my God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit who gives us all a free will.

The only thing I can do without God is sin.

Keep on running the good race on this one, Brother.
 
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Dragons87

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I wanna say. I wanna say.

I wanna say that while the evil doings may not be God's active doing, He passively allows them to happen. It's simple logic: no resistance, no growth. He allows these things to happen because they are supposed to benefit the Christian life.
 
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justinstout

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Dragons87 said:
I wanna say. I wanna say.

I wanna say that while the evil doings may not be God's active doing, He passively allows them to happen. It's simple logic: no resistance, no growth. He allows these things to happen because they are supposed to benefit the Christian life.

lol

^_^
 
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GenemZ

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justinstout said:
Thank you so much, cg1970.


It's about time someone says something nice about a guy who is simply defending God's love and goodness. Everyone seems to bash me simply because I do not hold God responsible for evil, sin, and suffering.

Some people say, "How can you trust a God who doesn't control everything that happens?" And I say, "How can you trust a God that does?"
How can someone trust a God that supposedly sends demons and cancer to "teach His children a lesson" ?

You really have a very simple minded concept of a being who is infinitely more complex than you will ever be. That's the problem. God has a purpose in all that happens. Even war. He is not the "good fairy" like you want us to see him as being.

Satan and demons can do NOTHING without God's permission!

Satan did not go to Heaven looking to go after Job. Satan was not even considering Job.

It was God who instigated Satan's testing of Job!

Job 1:7-9 (New International Version)
"The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."





Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."



"Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied."



Satan was going around Job. Avoiding him. It was the Lord who got Satan to concentrate on Job. Not only that, God did it again!



Job 2:2-4 (New International Version)

"And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."


Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
"Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life."

Satan can do nothing without God's permission!

Luke 22:31-32 (New International Version)
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you all as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Even the demons possessing Legion could not go into the swine without the Lord's permission!

Matthew 8:30-32 (New International Version)
"Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water."


The demonic realm can do no evil to man or animal without God's permission.
God is good. There is no evil in God. Yet, in your simple minded outlook you can only see God being evil if he allows for such things. God wants you to snap out of the 'good fairy' (white witch) concept that you have of Him. He has a purpose in all the bad things that happen. You are just limiting God by your limited (and stubborn) desire to see God through your own version of rose colored glasses. We are to fear God (respect). Not use him as an object to attach euphoric human emotions in association with. Which is what you appear to be desiring to do. Not even a simple sparrow perishes without God allowing it.

Matthew 10:29 niv
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father."

Nothing happens outside of God's will. Now is the time of testing men's hearts. Hearts need to be exposed now, not later.

Now? Maybe you'll go back and read my two posts that explain this?
Messages #4, and #12? The ones you have completely ignored?

It was God who instigated that Satan go after Job. It was not Satan first asking God to go after Job. God set the restrictions on what Satan could do to Job. But, the Lord knew very well what would happen when he pointed out Job to Satan.

Hoping I am making you think.....


Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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justinstout

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God "allows" a lot of stuff... so what's your point?

He "allowed" Adam to sin in the Garden.. but I can promise you that it was NOT His will in any way, shape, or form. This word "allow" really means nothing to me in the light of Scripture.

God "allowed" Hitler to kill millions of innocent people, does that mean God had some great purpose in the death of millions of people (many of whom may have gone straight to hell) ??? I say absolutely not! God was 100% diametrically opposed to Hitler doing what he did.. the same way that He is 100% diametrically opposed to people going to hell. God's will does not automatically come to pass just because it's His will.

We simply cannot say that just because God "allows" something that He somehow had a purpose in it. That's ridiculous circumstance theology. That leaves us with absolutely no responsiblity as humans and it puts all the blame and responsibility off on God. Under that false doctrine, we can pray for someone to be healed and if they aren't healed, then hey, we can throw it off on God and just assume that He wanted their body to be eaten up with cancer and not healed. How ridiculous is that?!

Saying that everything that happens is God's will leaves us extremely passive as Christians and it strips away all authority that God gave to us as His creation. God told Adam to take dominion. He didn't say "Ok, Adam.. my goal for you as a human is to be dominated by everything that comes your way". Sadly, that's how most Christians live today. They submit to every problem that comes their way, thinking that God is going to "use it to teach them a lesson and develop their faith". They passively wait for God to heal them, rather than receiving what Jesus Christ has already done for them. That's no different than a person sitting back saying "Well God, if you want to save me I know you will". No, the Bible says YOU confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead and you shall be saved.


For those of you who disagree with me on all of this, how can you??
If God didn't want me to say all of this, it couldn't have happened! It had to be His will for me to share these truths with you! :)
Right???
 
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Sabertooth

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If you want to continue to believe that God doesn't use sinful situations or people to CHASTISE His people, be careful you don't read the book of Judges and many of the Prophets...
 
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justinstout

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Sabertooth said:
If you want to continue to believe that God doesn't use sinful situations or people to CHASTISE His people, be careful you don't read the book of Judges and many of the Prophets...

Ok. Thanks for the info. I'll stick with Jesus. I don't make doctrine out of the Old Covenant. My doctrine comes from the life of Jesus and the teaching under the New Covenant. God doesn't have to use sin, disease, and problems to "chasten" me. He uses His Word to do so. Any earthly father who would beat his children, give them cancer, or make them a homosexual to "chastise" them is a wicked beast. Same goes to any god who would do such a thing. I thank my God that the chastisement of my peace was upon Jesus!!!!!
 
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Sabertooth

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justinstout said:
Ok. Thanks for the info. I'll stick with Jesus. I don't make doctrine out of the Old Covenant. My doctrine comes from the life of Jesus and the teaching under the New Covenant. God doesn't have to use sin, disease, and problems to "chasten" me. He uses His Word to do so. Any earthly father who would beat his children, give them cancer, or make them a homosexual to "chastise" them is a wicked beast. Same goes to any god who would do such a thing. I thank my God that the chastisement of my peace was upon Jesus!!!!!

[Repartee]That should make your Bible a whole lot lighter... [/Repartee]
 
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justinstout said:
Although Job knew that the calamity that had befallen him was not due to sin in his life, he did not understand why God (the only possible source of his suffering based on his understanding of life) had afflicted him. Throughout the Book of Job, he continues to ask God, “Why me?” and often does so very angrily.

Does God answer Job’s questions? Not in Job’s lifetime, nor throughout the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Christ, however, taught truths that do answer Job’s questions. Kushner has some excellent insight on the record of Job:





To try to understand the book and its answer, let us take note of three statements which everyone in the book, and most of the readers, would like to be able to believe:




A. God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.

B. God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

C. Job is a good person.

As long as Job is healthy and wealthy, we can believe all three of those statements at the same time with no difficulty. When Job suffers, when he loses his possessions, his family and his health, we have a problem. We can no longer make sense of all three propositions together. We can now affirm any two only by denying the third.

If God is both just and powerful, then Job must be a sinner who deserves what is happening to him. If Job is good but God causes his suffering anyway, then God is not just. If Job deserved better and God did not send his suffering, then God is not all-powerful. We can see the argument of the Book of Job as an argument over which of the three statements we are prepared to sacrifice, so that we can keep on believing in the other two.

Job’s friends are prepared to stop believing in (C), the assertion that Job is a good person. They want to believe in God as they have been taught to. They want to believe that God is good and that God is in control of things. And the only way they can do that is to convince themselves that Job deserves what is happening to him.

Job, for his part, is unwilling to hold the world together theologically by admitting that he is a villain. He knows a lot of things intellectually, but he knows one thing more deeply. Job is absolutely sure that he is not a bad person. He may not be perfect, but he is not so much worse than others, by any intelligible moral standard, that he should deserve to lose his home, his children, his wealth and health while other people get to keep all those things. And he is not prepared to lie to save God’s reputation.

Job’s solution is to reject proposition (B), the affirmation of God’s goodness. Job is in fact a good man, but God is so powerful that He is not limited by considerations of fairness and justice.




Kushner correctly states that Job considered himself an innocent victim and that Job thought that God afflicts both the righteous and unrighteous. Often Job attested to his own innocence. He said, “I had not denied the words of the Holy One” (Job 6:10b); “Show me where I have been wrong” (Job 6:24); “I am blameless” (Job 9:21); “You [God] know that I am not guilty” (Job 10:7); “Can anyone bring charges against me? If so, I will be silent and die” (Job 13:19); “As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice” (Job 27:2); and “Let God weigh me in honest scales and He will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6). Job made his case that God does whatever He pleases and afflicts both the innocent and the guilty: “...I say, He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:22).




Under this assumption, Job wished there were a mediator or an umpire that could help him out. “If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both” (Job 9:33). Of course, no umpire or mediator appears. What does appear is a storm, and God Himself speaking from it (Job 38:1). What did God say to Job in answer to his pleading questions? Well, one thing is clear— God did not give Job any reason for the problems besetting him.

Many theologians and Bible teachers rightly point out that God never gave Job an answer to the question of [why he was suffering]: “...God never answers question one about Job’s predicament...” “With all due respect to the many capable and godly preachers and writers who have taught that the major question as addressed in Job is why do the righteous suffer, we note that if this is the question, it is never answered in the Book of Job.”

Why not? Because the truth about the Devil as the source of human suffering was not revealed in the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ who first openly revealed the true source of mankind’s suffering.

Interestingly enough, Rabbi Kushner comes to the same conclusion we do, that proposition (A) is the proposition that is in error — “God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.” We do not, however, agree with his overall understanding of the book of Job, by which he arrives at this conclusion. We arrive at our conclusion from the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Nonetheless, we applaud Kushner’s insight about people’s reaction to this conclusion. He states:





There may be a sense of loss at coming to this conclusion. In a way, it was comforting to believe in an all-wise, all-powerful God who guaranteed fair treatment and happy endings, who reassured us that everything happened for a reason, even as life was easier for us when we could believe that our parents were wise enough to know what to do and strong enough to make everything turn out right. But it was comforting the way the religion of Job’s friends was comforting: it worked only as long as we did not take the problems of innocent victims seriously. When we have met Job, when we have been Job, we cannot believe in that sort of God any longer without giving up our own right to feel angry, to feel that we have been treated badly by life.







The New Testament makes it crystal clear that not everything that happens is God’s will. For example, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God’s will would be done on earth (Matthew 6:10). If everything that happens is God’s will, such prayer is superfluous. In Romans 1:10, Paul said he prayed for “a prosperous journey in the will of God” to see the believers there. Another meaningless prayer? No. The will of God for an individual, whether revealed in the written Word of God or by direct revelation, generally comes to pass only when that person understands it and, by his own , acts accordingly.




Rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we must make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it. God’s will, for example, is that people do not steal, but rather that they work to earn what they need (Ephesians 4:28). Very simple. We just do what He says. But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience. What a travesty of logic!

Going a step further then, if it is so easy for us humans to disobey God, what about the Devil and his spirit army? Can humans sin by choice while evil spirits cannot? Obviously spirit beings can sin, since sin was the reason the Devil and his hosts were thrown out of God’s presence to begin with. Via Adam’s sin, the Devil was legally given authority over the earth. The Devil did not and does not obey God. The Devil has been sinning for a long time (1 John 3:8). The Devil is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and a thief (John 10:10).

Interesting. I note that the entire perspective of this sermon is entirely human. On that basis it is deduced that God is not Omnipotent. This is not a conclusion I share.

Proposition a) "God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it" is only true in an indirect sense. Yes, God is Omnipotent, and on that basis he alone both created (Gen.1,2) and sustains (Col.1:16-17) the entire Creation. In this sense (that of facilitation) 'God causes everything that happens in the world and nothing happens without His willing it'.

However, he is absolutely not the author of sin. He facilitates the ability of his creatures to sin but he himself does not sin and neither does he cause his creatures to sin (this is how and why he is then able to hold us morally accountable (and then go on to judge us) on the Day of Judgment.

Proposition b) "God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished." God is both just and fair, but to say that he stands for 'people getting what they deserve' is to focus on God's Justice alone whilst simultaneously ignoring the very basis of that Justice which is Love (1Jn.4:8,16) which is why God, on the basis of Justice alone, didn't just repeatedly annihilate Adam and Eve and keep starting again until they (and we) finally got it right?! God is Love and this is the foundational basis of each and every one of his other attributes.

Proposition c) "Job is a good person." Isn't true either. Since the Fall, no person (with the exception of the Messiah) is good, though we are lead to believe that Job was not guilty of any sin which might have precipitated his predicament.

I believe that the message of the book of Job is that there is more to life than anthropo-centricity and that not everything that happens is the result (or consequence) of either good or bad actions on the part of human beings. The book of Job tells us that God was extoling Job's faith and virtuous life to the Evil One when the Evil One challenged the authenticity of that faith and virtue by denouncing it as 'cupboard love' (love that is conditional on being rewarded). God therefore allowed the Evil One to 'prove' Job in order to determine the genuine nature of Job's love for God (and to discredit the Evil One's false accusations against Job).

Simonline.
 
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Peaceful Dove

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Sabertooth said:
It just depends on how you spin it, doesn't it?

Many of us have been saying God ALLOWS..., but all you have "heard" us say is God CAUSES...

If you all are really only saying God ALLOWS and not that it is part of Gods plan and he causes it to happen, you are saying the same thing we are. He gave us a totally free will and allows us to make choices.

That is solid Christian Doctrine.

I refuse to buy anything other than this.

It would mean original sin was part of Gods plan, all sin, including millions of abortions of the innocent unborn were part of his plan and that it is also part of his plan that a portion of mankind be damned.

The Bible says, God is calling all men unto himself. He sent His son to Suffer, Die and Rise again for all mankind.
It is our choice to walk into His Presence or not.

You need to read the scripture where Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats and you will see that we all have a choice to live out the Sermon on the Mount or not.
 
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