Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Rajni]

The correct interpretation of the often misinterpreted verse by UR folk, I share here:

1 Corinthians 15:22
Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.

The translation you used above (which version is that, by the way?) is not true to the original language.

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

In the original Greek, it makes a direct comparison between all dying in Adam and all being made alive in Christ.

The Greek words for "even so" are "kai houtō(s)", and literally mean "and, also, even, indeed, but" and "in this manner, thus, so" respectively.

So the correct interpretation of that verse is that in the same manner all died in Adam, all (the same "all") will be made alive again in Christ. Both our dying in Adam and our being made alive again in Christ were decisions made at a higher level, without our vote on the matter.

Once again, man must step off the pedestal and let God have it. We are not as much in control of these things as we sometimes like to think



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[Rajni]

Its almost odd how people say are you just with Jesus to avoid hell? Because that is what got me saved, the rapture idea.

That's what motivated me to accept Christ as my Savior too, initially – the fear of eternal hell. The rapture idea came later for me, but I eventually became a die-hard pre-tribber for the longest time!

Of course not, but had I thought all are saved, I would not have accepted Jesus' offer of life.

I believe you would have eventually, just for different reasons. Ultimately, everyone will trust Jesus. Remember, the scriptural motivator for loving God is that He first loved us (1 John 4:19), and not because He threatened us to love Him or else.

yes, I could have rejected it, free will. But I didn't.

Free will is a myth. I have already addressed this in post #343. Did you see it?

On top of that, since faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9), it is not to our own merit that we are saved by it.

But the fact of hell wakes one up,makes one SEE that we were all going there because of sin, but Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection gives us a chance NOT to.
Can anyone who images there is no hell understand that?

Yep, I can. I used to believe it. Fear of hell drove me to Christ, but love for Him is what keeps me with Him. I no longer fear what was a mythical place to begin with, because "perfect love casts out fear." (1 John 4:18)

 

[Rajni]

IcedTea - you don't have to imagine a future hell to recognize when you bes in a present one that won't get any better without Him ...

 

[Rajni]

See jewish leaders of Jesus time. What was it they said to him? Oh yes "your father is the devil". Boy does that sound familiar where have I hear that?

Yes, even Jesus Himself was accused of being of the devil, a heretic, etc. And He is living proof that being called such -- by the "righteous" members of God's own "fan club" no less! -- doesn't mean He was!



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[enoch son]

Mmm-hmm! Exactly.
Let's keep this one in mind:
Matthew 5:
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

The religious "authorities" in Jesus' day -- who believed their theology and understanding of Scripture to be 100% correct and themselves to be following the one true God rightly -- called Him a blasphemer, a madman, and even demon-possessed. They claimed He got His power from Beelzebub. :o

I'm reading this and the Spirit speaks to me and say's. "Just think of the glory thats waiting to be shown to you when the principles of mans doctrine which are wrong fall by the way side." My inner man leaps at the joy of what is ahead.

 

[enoch son]

Does Paul think all men are "in Messiah"? No. What does Paul think it means to be "in Messiah"? He tips us off in the very next verse:

15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.


Always read in context. Does Paul think all men are "in Messiah" and that all men belong to Messiah? Nope.

So you were born outside of Adam? I think it's say's thats not true. As one had no choose in that matter why would God give you a choose in the other? You point makes no sense. It only states a lie "I'm a man and I'm in control. Sounds anti-christ to me. You have little or no understanding of the term order.

 

[Yekcidmij]

So you were born outside of Adam? I think it's say's thats not true. As one had no choose in that matter why would God give you a choose in the other? You point makes no sense.

Paul's overall theology, and point here, is that Christ is the last Adam so just as all men died in the first Adam, so all men that are in the last Adam, in Christ, are made alive.

No doubt I predict you will dispute this especially since I see tension in your worldview where you haven't tried to reconcile Paul with Paul. So go ahead:

[insert you next ridiculous insult here]

It only states a lie "I'm a man and I'm in control. Sounds anti-christ to me. You have little or no understanding of the term order.

Yea. That's what it was. I'm the antichrist. I'm lying to you. I have the understand of men. I have the wisdom of the world. I have manmade doctrine. I have traditions of the world. [insert next cliche' here]

 

[brinny]

If? LOL!!

The correct interpretation of the often misinterpreted verse by UR folk, I share here:

1 Corinthians 15:22
Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.

Just checked this out in my PC Study Bible, pulling the first commentary on the list, Barnes' Notes:

"If this passage means, that in Adam, or by him, all people became sinners, then the correspondent declaration 'all shall be made alive' must have reference to the words 'all die,' and must affirm the co-relative and opposite fact. If the phrase 'all die' there means all become sinners, then the phrase 'all be made alive' must mean all shall be made holy, or be recovered from their spiritual death; and thus an obvious argument is furnished for the doctrine of universal salvation, which it is difficult, if not impossible, to meet. It is not a sufficientanswer to this to say that the word 'all,' in the latter part of the sentence, means all the elect, or all the righteous; for its most natural and obvious meaning is, that is is co-extensive with the word 'all' in the former part of the verse."

Are you aware that God does know who will accept His only begotten Son and those that will not, no matter what? An example of this is the parable about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was in torment and oh so thirsty. He implored that someone be sent back to warn his kin of their coming doom...and He was told that if his kin did not believe the prophets, what makes him think they'd believe a new messenger?

Here's the bottom line. God is aware that there are those that will never seek His face, seek His heart, and not be motivated by a heart that cries out to Him and therefore does not respond to the provision that Jesus Christ provided. He knows that there are those who will attempt to use Him, as a means to an end, but have no love for Him whatsoever in their heart. It is to them these words are for: "Depart from me for I never knew you."

He is extending every opportunity for those that seek Him because somewhere deep inside they are drawn to Him and seek His heart...to find Him through Jesus the Christ. That is the reason He tells us He is long-suffering....to bring His lost ones home, to Him, to His arms.

There will come a day at His appointed time that His grace will no longer strive with man. The door will be closed. Just as in the days of Noah, and just as with Sodom and Gomorrah, destruction will have its say. It is hungry and being held back by God's grace, and only that. Satan is not going down without taking someone with him. The bottom line here is that there are those that love this world and will continue to love this world till their dying breath leaves their body and they return to the dust from whence they came. Grace has ended for them.

I wrote a piece on what eternal seperation from God must be like...i'll try to find it....but in the meantime, i believe that there is an unquenchable regret, and the excruciating pain of remembering God, Abba, and Who He really is...and remember that He once sang over us with singing....and if you've ever been homesick, multiply that by a trillion, and the part where we see now as through a glass darkly? That is removed...we see clear as a bell....and we see Who we have rejected...we remember Him....we see how we embraced sin and not Him...we see the wickedness in our own hearts.....we are incxonsolable...it is lost...we see the cost...we see that we have, in essence, condemned ourselves...

Fiery murmurings, skulls and bones
darkly moving shadowy groans
pits of bondage
howls of pain
haunting sorrows
gnawing shame
hope is gone
all is lost
what a pity
what a cost
to cast aside the grace
that would've saved you
from this place

the above are what many of us would attempt to escape through suicide perhaps....

only thing, it doesn't work there
there is no escape

all that we have ever feared, been repulsed by or has caused us pain will be revisited there.

there is no forgetting
no fuzziness
no tuning out
nothing but
glaring
stark
cla-ri-ty
with
nothing
to
numb
all
that
claims
us
for-
ever-
and-
ever.

i'll try to find that piece i wrote.

be back.

 

[enoch son]

What happens to the dead once death is abolished?

Death to a man is one thing death to God is another. As long as one thinks of death in the mind of a man one will never see the true nature of God. Death to God is life. "Dead in your sins" but where you not walking around alive? Jesus said "today you will be in paradise" So the body has nothing to do with death it is but dust. So does one ever die? I must say NO. What happean comes down to what you think paradise is.

 

[Rajni]

Paul's overall theology, and point here, is that Christ is the last Adam so just as all men died in the first Adam, so all men that are in the last Adam, in Christ, are made alive.

A more accurate rendering of that verse can be found in post #423, where it explains what the original text was driving at.


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[brinny]

[/SIZE]

Not everyone is a sheep. Some are goats.




Then you are claiming to be on par with scripture. Your words, you claim, are scripture. Forgive me for not jumping on that boat right away.



Amen. God is a Warrior and a jealous lover.




That's not the orthodox teaching I'm aquainted with. That's unorthodox and quite frankly pagan. Pagans would be the ones to try to entice the gods into action by repeating some mantra. What matters is a changed heart and that is orthodoxy.



The thing is, if God is both omnipotent and omniscient, He could have known that if the person made it to the meeting, He wouldn't have believed anyway. Of course even this lies on the underlying attitude that we can question God's Sovreignty. God is Sovreign, He gives life and kills, He heals and wounds, and if He sees fit to bring someone to His court for judgment, that's His perogative as Sovreign.



You imply they didn't have mercy. They did have mercy but they chose justice instead. Mercy is God's to give as He sees fit. If God doesn't grant mercy, that's His perogative as Sovreign. You think that God is required to give mercy. That is not the case. It's merciful that God allows anyone forgiveness in the first place. God was well within His character to execute justice to everyone and consign everyone to the second death. How often we forget that.

And the imagery of demons poking people with pitchforks and laughing like a freak show is a relic of Dante and reflected in modern films and is not accurate.




There seems to be an underlying assumption here. You seem to think all the saints are to spend eternity as spirits in a place called heaven. That is not the case. Death is a curse according to the bible, not a blessing. The saints will be resurrected and live bodily on earth. The non-saints will not. That is a fundamental difference. Not everyone is raised from the dead. Those who are dead cannot choose Messiah simply because they are dead and unable to.

You also put God's Mercy over and above His Justice. In either/both instances, God is glorified and is righteous in His decision. He has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy on. That's His perogative as Sovreign. If He only wants to raise from the dead those that are in Christ, that is His perogative, and it is merciful that He even provides that in the first place.

God's original design for us was to reflect His image. Those who choose to worship something other than God choose to reflect the image of the object they worship. To be a true human is to bear the image of God as designed to. Those who do not want to reflect the image of God will cease to be truly human. Those who God has not renewed do not reflect His image and are not raised from the dead. The bible describes this as fire and brimstone, but let's not forget that is a description and imagery of those who are not raised from the dead. The ultimate hope for the Christian is to be raised from the dead as Christ was raised from the dead and given a new life to bear the image of God as we were originally designed to. Those who are not in the Messiah are not raised from the dead. There is no second chance simply because they are dead and not alive.

amen.

 

[brinny]

Does Paul think all men are "in Messiah"? No. What does Paul think it means to be "in Messiah"? He tips us off in the very next verse:

15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.


Always read in context. Does Paul think all men are "in Messiah" and that all men belong to Messiah? Nope.

Amen.

 

[brinny]

*IF LUCIFER (KJ GOT THIS WORD FROM THE LATIN VULGATE), OR SATAN IS A MAN, HE WILL BE SAVED. IN ADAM ALL DIE, IN CHRIST ALL ARE MADE ALIVE.

come again? you did not answer the question. Please expound on who or what Lucifer/Satan is/was.

Thank you.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
You do realize the Great Reconciler is Jesus the Christ Himself, don't you?

What are you saying then that reconciliation and salvation are the same thing? One needs to be careful here and watch ones foot.

not following you enoch son

 

[Rajni]

So you were born outside of Adam? I think it's say's thats not true. As one had no choose in that matter why would God give you a choose in the other?

Good point. If, in 1 Cor 15:22, the 2nd "all" (those made alive in Christ) is to be understood as meaning only "some", then what's to stop one from concluding that perhaps the first "all" (those who died in Adam) likewise means only "some"?

And, if that were the case, then *PRESTO*! We now have the foundation for a doctrine that teaches that there are people running around out there who didn't die in Adam, and who therefore aren't sinners!

Boy, wouldn't I love to get their autographs, LOL!




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[brinny]

Originally Posted by Floatingaxe
You have to step down from that throne and place Jesus on that throne of your life. He is never there without invitation.

So you are saying your the king of your throne? Funny I think the word say's Jesus is the KING OF KINGS. So where do you fit?

enoch son, where did your response come from? Forgive me, it is confusing. She is not saying she's the king of her throne..she's saying Jesus the Christ is.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

STOP Fighting.

 

[brinny]

STOP Fighting.

hello Moriah....tried to PM you...

tough subject, this is everybody going to heaven...seems like it's a mini-drama on this thread of the spiritual battle that is taking place, allbeit it an unseen one, in the heavenlies....i have something in my blog that touches on it..i may post it here...

*on another note, could you give me an update? thanks

 

[icedtea]

We'll find out in the future.

 

[brinny]

just a poem...

God will...

yes He will...

uh-huh,

God will

shine His Light

right smack

in the middle

of

darkness...

His Light delights me.....

His Light makes the dark ones squirm...

for in His Light...

darkness cannot hide....


There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; But the end thereof are the ways of death." Prov. 14:12

"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; ... I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him;..." Deut. 30:15, 19

"Thus saith Jehovah: Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death." Jer. 21:8

"For Jehovah knoweth the way of the righteous; But the way of the wicked shall perish." Psalm 1:6

"And Elijah came near unto all the people, and said, How long go ye limping between the two sides? if Jehovah be God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him..." I Kings 18:21

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served ... but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah." Josh. 24:15


the battle rages on:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EMPEt6B2w4


and on:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkZEt4pM-MM

indeed.