Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Tavita]

just a poem...

God will...

yes He will...

uh-huh,

God will

shine His Light

right smack

in the middle

of

darkness...

His Light delights me.....

His Light makes the dark ones squirm...

for in His Light...

darkness cannot hide....


There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; But the end thereof are the ways of death." Prov. 14:12

"See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; ... I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him;..." Deut. 30:15, 19

"Thus saith Jehovah: Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death." Jer. 21:8

"For Jehovah knoweth the way of the righteous; But the way of the wicked shall perish." Psalm 1:6

"And Elijah came near unto all the people, and said, How long go ye limping between the two sides? if Jehovah be God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him..." I Kings 18:21

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served ... but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah." Josh. 24:15

the battle rages on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EMPEt6B2w4

and on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkZEt4pM-MM

indeed.

Hmm.. great poem!

But I thought the battle had been won!?

 

[brinny]

Hmmm...that where you wanna stay with that Tavita?

 

[Rajni]

But I thought the battle had been won!?

1 Corinthians 15:57 – “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus the Messiah!”

2 Corinthians 2:14 - “But I thank God, who always leads us in victory because of Christ. Wherever we go, God uses us to make clear what it means to know Christ. It's like a fragrance that fills the air.”





.

 

[brinny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMZ8D6nTKhg&feature=related

and i say amen.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Tavita
But I thought the battle had been won!?

1 Corinthians 15:57 – “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus the Messiah!”

2 Corinthians 2:14 - “But I thank God, who always leads us in victory because of Christ. Wherever we go, God uses us to make clear what it means to know Christ. It's like a fragrance that fills the air.”





.

you do realize it is speaking of His children, those that are grafted into His family, those that love Him, His sheep. Don't you?

It is not speaking of goats who claim something that they have not been given legitimately, but are attempting to claim something from a holy God that is not theirs to claim, do you not realize this?

 

[Rajni]

you do realize it is speaking of His children, those that are grafted into His family, those that love Him, His sheep. Don't you?

It is not speaking of goats who claim something that they have not been given legitimately, but are attempting to claim something from a holy God that is not theirs to claim, do you not realize this?

Where do you see the word "sheep" in those verses?

.

.

 

[brinny]

who this be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=759wYZPIgII&feature=related

 

[Tavita]

It is not speaking of goats who claim something that they have not been given legitimately, but are attempting to claim something from a holy God that is not theirs to claim, do you not realize this?

sorry, getting myself in a tangle here...

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
It is not speaking of goats who claim something that they have not been given legitimately, but are attempting to claim something from a holy God that is not theirs to claim, do you not realize this?

Jesus was speaking to believers in these verses about the goats and sheep. The goats are believers too... not unbelievers as many try and proclaim.

That's why it is so vital to go on unto perfection, and to be an overcomer. Complacent, apathetic christians who are not serious in their relationship with Christ, who stay as 'carnal' and do not grow in maturity... are the goats. In fact, the Greek portrays them as 'kids'.. children in the faith.

you may want to examine what it is exactly goats believe in...it's akin to one of Jesus' disciples..Judas....he being a goat and because he was never intending to bow his will or his life to the Lordship of Christ, thereby, wanting nothing to do with God, and just tag along, he wath a goat. He did what all goats do...his own thang. Goats do not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Tavita]

you may want to examine what it is exactly goats believe in...it's akin to one of Jesus' disciples..Judas....he being a goat and because he was never intending to bow his will or his life to the Lordship of Christ, thereby, wanting nothing to do with God, and just tag along, he wath a goat. He did what all goats do...his own thang. Goats do not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I edited my post brinny...

 

[Tavita]

you may want to examine what it is exactly goats believe in...it's akin to one of Jesus' disciples..Judas....he being a goat and because he was never intending to bow his will or his life to the Lordship of Christ, thereby, wanting nothing to do with God, and just tag along, he wath a goat. He did what all goats do...his own thang. Goats do not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I often wonder why Jesus didn't give the example of a pig, rather than a goat. A pig was something totally unclean in the OT.. yet the goat was a clean animal and was used in sacrifices on the altar. Hmmm....

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
you may want to examine what it is exactly goats believe in...it's akin to one of Jesus' disciples..Judas....he being a goat and because he was never intending to bow his will or his life to the Lordship of Christ, thereby, wanting nothing to do with God, and just tag along, he wath a goat. He did what all goats do...his own thang. Goats do not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I edited my post brinny...

explain.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
you may want to examine what it is exactly goats believe in...it's akin to one of Jesus' disciples..Judas....he being a goat and because he was never intending to bow his will or his life to the Lordship of Christ, thereby, wanting nothing to do with God, and just tag along, he wath a goat. He did what all goats do...his own thang. Goats do not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I often wonder why Jesus didn't give the example of a pig, rather than a goat. A pig was something totally unclean in the OT.. yet the goat was a clean animal and was used in sacrifices on the altar. Hmmm....

yet He didn't. Apparently He was looking for something other than the outside appearance of filth.

 

[Yekcidmij]

The translation you used above (which version is that, by the way?) is not true to the original language.

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

In the original Greek, it makes a direct comparison between all dying in Adam and all being made alive in Christ.

The Greek words for "even so" are "kai houtō(s)", and literally mean "and, also, even, indeed, but" and "in this manner, thus, so" respectively.

So the correct interpretation of that verse is that in the same manner all died in Adam, all (the same "all") will be made alive again in Christ. Both our dying in Adam and our being made alive again in Christ were decisions made at a higher level, without our vote on the matter.

Actually my reading is perfectly in line with the Greek and my reading takes Paul into context much better. Just as all men die Adam so all men who are in Christ are made alive. Paul believes Jesus is the last Adam so that just as all men die in the first Adam so all men are made alive in the last Adam - Messiah - the true human. Now does Paul think all men are in Messiah? No, he doesn't. This is evident from the surrounding context:

15:18 Furthermore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished. 15:19 For if only in this life we have hope in Christ, we should be pitied more than anyone. 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

15:21 For since death came through a man,
the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.
15:22 For just as in Adam all die,
so also in Christ all will be made alive.

15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. 15:24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power.


Paul's point is that as death entered into the world through Adam, so resurrection comes through the last Adam, the true man, Jesus. Just as all those in Adam die (that's all of us) so all those who are in the last Adam, Christ, will be raised from the dead (that's not everyone). Vs. 23 even implies that there are people who don't belong to Christ. Those that are in Christ are the true humanity, just as Israel believed she was the true humanity, now Paul carries that thinking over and applies it to those who are in Messiah.


15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 15:46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 15:47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 15:48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly.


Paul draws a distinction between Messiah, the last Adam, and the first Adam. Paul clearly does not think that everyone is in the Messiah. He talks about those who are heavenly and those who belong to Christ implying that there is another category who isn't heavenly and who isn't in Christ. To die in Adam, you must be in Adam. We are all in Adam. To be raised from the dead, you must be in Christ. Not everyone is in Christ.

1 Cor 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

Paul seems to think that not everyone is being saved. Pauls other writings also reflect this:


Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The implication in vs. 1 is that there is condemnation to those who are not in Christ. Indeed, Christ's own words reflect this, "those who do not believe are condemned already".

And just in case Paul hasn't been clear enough:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness. 8:11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you.


Now does Paul think all belong to Christ? No. Does Paul think all have the Spirit? No.

It's simple:
Not everyone has the Spirit of Christ in them.
Those that do not have the Spirit do not belong to Him.
Those that do have the Spirit of Christ in them belong to Him.
Those that have the Spirit in them will be raised from the dead.
Those that do not have the Spirit will not be raised from the dead.

Adam brought death into the world.
So, all who are in the first Adam die
Christ, the last Adam, brought resurrection and life into the world
so, all who are in Christ will be made alive

Those that are in Christ are identified with Christ, the true human, not Adam.
Those that are not in Christ are identified with Adam, the sinful human, not Christ.


This is what Paul is driving at and mirrors Jesus' statement, "you must be born again".

Your reading of the text is not a "more accurate reading" because it simply removes Paul from Paul and places Chaela in Paul instead.

Prediction: I have a feeling you will still say you are reading the verse literally in the Greek. But, you are in fact not taking it in context. I am taking it in context and have no problem with the literal Greek. I don't know where people get the idea that Paul wrote one verse at a time, from disconnected thought to disconnected thought, and why people think Paul didn't have a worldview that he was writing from. Paul thinks Christ is the last Adam, as is evident from 1 Cor. alone. Paul believes those that are "in messiah" have the Spirit and are identified with messiah in life, death, and resurrection. Paul does not think that all people have the Spirit or that all people are in the messiah. Paul think those who are in messiah will be raised. Paul does not think all are raised from the dead since all are not in messiah. This is rather basic Paul theology.

 

[brinny]

Actually my reading is perfectly in line with the Greek and my reading takes Paul into context much better. Just as all men die Adam so all men who are in Christ are made alive. Paul believes Jesus is the last Adam so that just as all men die in the first Adam so all men are made alive in the last Adam - Messiah - the true human. Now does Paul think all men are in Messiah? No, he doesn't. This is evident from the surrounding context:

15:18 Furthermore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished. 15:19 For if only in this life we have hope in Christ, we should be pitied more than anyone. 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

15:21 For since death came through a man,
the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.
15:22 For just as in Adam all die,
so also in Christ all will be made alive.

15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. 15:24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power.


Paul's point is that as death entered into the world through Adam, so resurrection comes through the last Adam, the true man, Jesus. Just as all those in Adam die (that's all of us) so all those who are in the last Adam, Christ, will be raised from the dead (that's not everyone). Vs. 23 even implies that there are people who don't belong to Christ. Those that are in Christ are the true humanity, just as Israel believed she was the true humanity, now Paul carries that thinking over and applies it to those who are in Messiah.


15:45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living person”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 15:46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 15:47 The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 15:48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly.


Paul draws a distinction between Messiah, the last Adam, and the first Adam. Paul clearly does not think that everyone is in the Messiah. He talks about those who are heavenly and those who belong to Christ implying that there is another category who isn't heavenly and who isn't in Christ. To die in Adam, you must be in Adam. We are all in Adam. To be raised from the dead, you must be in Christ. Not everyone is in Christ.

1 Cor 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

Paul seems to think that not everyone is being saved. Pauls other writings also reflect this:


Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The implication in vs. 1 is that there is condemnation to those who are not in Christ. Indeed, Christ's own words reflect this, "those who do not believe are condemned already".

And just in case Paul hasn't been clear enough:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is your life because of righteousness. 8:11 Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you.


Now does Paul think all belong to Christ? No. Does Paul think all have the Spirit? No.

It's simple:
Not everyone has the Spirit of Christ in them.
Those that do not have the Spirit do not belong to Him.
Those that do have the Spirit of Christ in them belong to Him.
Those that have the Spirit in them will be raised from the dead.
Those that do not have the Spirit will not be raised from the dead.

Adam brought death into the world.
So, all who are in the first Adam die
Christ, the last Adam, brought resurrection and life into the world
so, all who are in Christ will be made alive

Those that are in Christ are identified with Christ, the true human, not Adam.
Those that are not in Christ are identified with Adam, the sinful human, not Christ.


This is what Paul is driving at and mirrors Jesus' statement, "you must be born again".

Your reading of the text is not a "more accurate reading" because it simply removes Paul from Paul and places Chaela in Paul instead.

Prediction: I have a feeling you will still say you are reading the verse literally in the Greek. But, you are in fact not taking it in context. I am taking it in context and have no problem with the literal Greek. I don't know where people get the idea that Paul wrote one verse at a time, from disconnected thought to disconnected though, and Paul didn't have a worldview that he was writing from. Paul thinks Christ is the last Adam, as is evident from 1 Cor. alone. Paul believes those that are "in messiah" have the Spirit and are identified with messiah in life, death, and resurrection. Paul does not think that all people have the Spirit or that all people are in the messiah. Paul does not think all are raised from the dead. This is rather basic Paul theology.

amen.

 

[Tavita]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Another thing concerning goats I find most interesting is the testimony of the Catacombs...

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Testimony of the Catacombs[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
An illuminating side-light is cast on the opinions of the early Christians by the inscriptions and emblems on the monuments in the Roman Catacombs.12 It is well known that from the end of the First to the end of the Fourth Century the early Christians buried their dead, probably with the knowledge and consent of the pagan authorities, in subterranean galleries excavated in the soft rock ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]tufa[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]) that underlies Rome. These ancient cemeteries were first uncovered A.D. 1578. Already sixty excavations have been made extending five hundred and eighty-seven miles. More than six, some estimates say eight, million bodies are known to have been buried between A.D. 72 and A.D. 410. Eleven thousand epitaphs and inscriptions have been found; few dates are between A.D. 72 and 100; the most are from A.D. 150 to A.D. 410. The galleries are from three to five feet wide and eight feet high, and the niches for bodies are five tiers deep, one above another, each silent tenant in a separate cell. At the entrance of each cell is a tile or slab of marble, once securely cemented and inscribed with name, epitaph, or emblem. 13 Haweis beautifully says in his "Conquering Cross:" "The public life of the early Christian was persecution above ground; his private life was prayer underground." The emblems and inscriptions are most suggestive. The principal device, scratched on slabs, carved on utensils and rings, and seen almost everywhere, is the Good Shepherd, surrounded by his flock and carrying a lamb. But most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at the early date regarded as the objects of the Savior's concern, after departing from this life.13

Matthew Arnold has preserved this truth in his immortal verse:14 "He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"

So rang Tertullian's sentence on the side
of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried,--
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave,
Whose sins once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant Church,--of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eyes suffused but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew
And on his shoulders not a lamb, a kid!

This picture is a "distinct protest" against the un-Christian sentiment then already creeping into the church from Paganism. Everywhere in the Catacombs is the anchor, emblem of that hope which separated Christianity from Paganism.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

​

 

[Tavita]

yet He didn't. Apparently He was looking for something other than the outside appearance of filth.

LOL!.. it none of it has to do with outside filth! The pig is one of the cleanest animals.. on the outside.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So you are saying your the king of your throne? Funny I think the word say's Jesus is the KING OF KINGS. So where do you fit?

Once again I say you must step down off the throne of your life and allow Jesus Christ His place on it.

Odd how this point is treated with mockery...I thought the Body of Christ was supposed to be united.

That's quite the poser...

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
yet He didn't. Apparently He was looking for something other than the outside appearance of filth.

LOL!.. it none of it has to do with outside filth! The pig is one of the cleanest animals.. on the outside.

hmmmm...you missed my point...Jesus found some reason to compare sheep and goats.....i was making the point about pigs because of your comment. The focus here from Jesus is on the heart and obedience. As Jesus says Himself, His sheep know His voice. Goats do not, for they never 'knew' Him. That is the tragedy.....they never knew Him.....they do their own thang, and know 'about' Him, using Him to a means to get what they want. He's not in their heart nor ever will be. God is aware of this.

The bottom line is.....it's our will that is the stickler...always has been. We inherited that trait from our enemy. It must be conquered by giving it to our Lord and Master, Jesus the Christ, and in our hearts our goal must be to run to Abba, reuniting with Him, once again.......there has been a homesickness of sorts...and He becomes our everything...

and thus in that vein, we pick up our swords....put on our armor....adjust our shield...and advance to battle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HQGN44SQSQ&feature=related

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
~Ephesians 6:12

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth,
and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith,
wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God:
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,
and watching thereunto with all perseverance
and supplication for all saints;
~Ephesians 6:13-18​

 

[Floatingaxe]

Just checked this out in my PC Study Bible, pulling the first commentary on the list, Barnes' Notes:

"If this passage means, that in Adam, or by him, all people became sinners, then the correspondent declaration 'all shall be made alive' must have reference to the words 'all die,' and must affirm the co-relative and opposite fact. If the phrase 'all die' there means all become sinners, then the phrase 'all be made alive' must mean all shall be made holy, or be recovered from their spiritual death; and thus an obvious argument is furnished for the doctrine of universal salvation, which it is difficult, if not impossible, to meet. It is not a sufficientanswer to this to say that the word 'all,' in the latter part of the sentence, means all the elect, or all the righteous; for its most natural and obvious meaning is, that is is co-extensive with the word 'all' in the former part of the verse."

Re:
1 Corinthians 15:22
Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.



All die, because they are of Adam's race. Therefore, all who are in Christ will live. Not all. Only ALL WHO ARE IN CHRIST.

You can get commentaries to say whatever you want. God's Word is clear and ALWAYS agrees with itself.