Is Everybody going to heaven?

DeborahsSong · Oct 25, 2008

bill16652 said:
As a latecomer to this am not sure what all has been posted but it would seem to me that when the Word says eternal it means exactly that. Revelation must just be a fairy tale if it ismt eternal. And while you look at hell and the lake of fire you should also look at outer darkness and explain to me how it is not eternal. Do we get a chance after death to acept Jesus? Is it once saved alwaus saved? All are saved in the end? I believe none of these but it is the path that is being tread.

Welcome to the thread! The problem is that the Word doesn't say eternal in regard to punishment or the lake of fire. It is a mistranslation of the Greek aionios. This error was started by Augustine who knew little Greek. Aionios is a temporal term. An aion has a beginning and an end. Young's Literal uses "age during" instead. Past posts on this thread go into more detail.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him. It's up to God to decide the time and place. For some it's this life, this place. For others it may be a different age and the lake of fire. His plan is for all men to be saved and for God the Father to be the All in All. (see past posts for scriptural references).

psalms 91 · Oct 25, 2008

DeborahsSong said:
Welcome to the thread! The problem is that the Word doesn't say eternal in regard to punishment or the lake of fire. It is a mistranslation of the Greek aionios. This error was started by Augustine who knew little Greek. Aionios is a temporal term. An aion has a beginning and an end. Young's Literal uses "age during" instead. Past posts on this thread go into more detail.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him. It's up to God to decide the time and place. For some it's this life, this place. For others it may be a different age and the lake of fire. His plan is for all men to be saved and for God the Father to be the All in All. (see past posts for scriptural references).

The fallacy I see with this lays in it is appointed unto men once to die and we know from Jesus teachings that after death it is to late to accept and recieve Him, we also know from scripture that there are wicked servants who are sent away ( in other words rthose that were saved and baptised with power)God doesnt change and the God of the Old is also the God of the New, there is nothing temporal at all about judgement. For we will all be judged, whether it is at the Judgement seat of Christ or the Great White Throne judgement is up to us.

Rajni · Oct 25, 2008

bill16652 said:
As a latecomer to this am not sure what all has been posted but it would seem to me that when the Word says eternal it means exactly that. Revelation must just be a fairy tale if it ismt eternal. And while you look at hell and the lake of fire you should also look at outer darkness and explain to me how it is not eternal. Do we get a chance after death to acept Jesus? Is it once saved alwaus saved? All are saved in the end? I believe none of these but it is the path that is being tread.

These issues have been addressed in this thread.

.

Svt4Him · Oct 25, 2008

DeborahsSong said:
Welcome to the thread! The problem is that the Word doesn't say eternal in regard to punishment or the lake of fire. It is a mistranslation of the Greek aionios. This error was started by Augustine who knew little Greek. Aionios is a temporal term. An aion has a beginning and an end. Young's Literal uses "age during" instead. Past posts on this thread go into more detail.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him. It's up to God to decide the time and place. For some it's this life, this place. For others it may be a different age and the lake of fire. His plan is for all men to be saved and for God the Father to be the All in All. (see past posts for scriptural references).

As already shown, this line of reasoning is not entirely accurate, as God's goodness and glory is not temporal, yet use the same Greek terms. So if you say aion has a beginning and an end, can you tell me when God's glory started and when it will end?

DeborahsSong · Oct 25, 2008

bill16652 said:
The fallacy I see with this lays in it is appointed unto men once to die and we know from Jesus teachings that after death it is to late to accept and recieve Him, we also know from scripture that there are wicked servants who are sent away ( in other words rthose that were saved and baptised with power)God doesnt change and the God of the Old is also the God of the New, there is nothing temporal at all about judgement. For we will all be judged, whether it is at the Judgement seat of Christ or the Great White Throne judgement is up to us.

NO ONE IS DENYING THAT THERE IS JUDGEMENT. ADAM AND CAIN WERE JUDGED, BUT GOD DIDN'T STOP DEALING WITH THEM.

PLEASE PROVIDE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT THAT AFTER DEATH IT IS TOO LATE TO ACCEPT AND RECEIVE HIM. WE'VE HAD THIS CHALLENGE THROUGHOUT THE THREAD, BUT SO FAR, NO TAKERS.

WE BELIEVE GOD IS THE SAME IN THE OT AND NT AND THIS THREAD CONTAINS NUMBEROUS OT SCRIPTURES THAT DEMONSTRATE THE TEMPORAL ASPECT OF HIS PUNISHMENTS AND JUDGEMENTS. WOULD YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES THAT SHOW HE PUNISHES FOREVER? THESE WOULD BE SCRIPTURES NOT BASED ON AION OR IT'S COGNATES.

Easyrider · Oct 25, 2008

DeborahsSong said:
NO ONE IS DENYING THAT THERE IS JUDGEMENT. ADAM AND CAIN WERE JUDGED, BUT GOD DIDN'T STOP DEALING WITH THEM.

PLEASE PROVIDE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT THAT AFTER DEATH IT IS TOO LATE TO ACCEPT AND RECEIVE HIM. WE'VE HAD THIS CHALLENGE THROUGHOUT THE THREAD, BUT SO FAR, NO TAKERS.

WE BELIEVE GOD IS THE SAME IN THE OT AND NT AND THIS THREAD CONTAINS NUMBEROUS OT SCRIPTURES THAT DEMONSTRATE THE TEMPORAL ASPECT OF HIS PUNISHMENTS AND JUDGEMENTS. WOULD YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES THAT SHOW HE PUNISHES FOREVER? THESE WOULD BE SCRIPTURES NOT BASED ON AION OR IT'S COGNATES.

Matthew 25:46-NLT
They will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Revelation 14:9-12-NLT . . .
They will have no relief day or night,
for they have worshiped the beast
and his statue and have accepted
the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:15-NLT . . .
Anyone whose Name was Not Found
Recorded in the Book of Life
was Thrown into the Lake of Fire.

John 11:25-NLT . . .
I am the Resurrection and the Life.
Those who Believe in Me, even
though they die like everyone else,
Will Live Again.

Isaiah 25:8-NLT . . .
HE will swallow up death forever!

Matthew 10:28 . . .
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill you.
They can only kill your body;
they cannot touch your Soul.”

Romans 6:23 . . .
The wages of sin is Death,
but the Free Gift of GOD is Eternal Life
Through JESUS CHRIST Our LORD!!

Romans 2:5-6-NLT
But no, you won’t listen. So you are
storing up terrible punishment for yourself
because of your stubbornness in refusing
to turn from your sin. For there is going
to come a day of judgment when God,
the just judge of all the world, will judge
all people according to what they have done.

DeborahsSong · Oct 25, 2008

Svt4Him said:
As already shown, this line of reasoning is not entirely accurate, as God's goodness and glory is not temporal, yet use the same Greek terms. So if you say aion has a beginning and an end, can you tell me when God's glory started and when it will end?

WHAT POST ARE YOU REFERENCING? IN CHECKING SCRIPTURE THAT INCLUDES GLORY AND AIONIOS (KJV), I'M JUST COMING UP WITH THOSE THAT MENTION CHRIST JESUS. WHILE CHRIST IS THE 2ND PERSON OF THE GODHEAD AND WITHOUT BEGINNING, HIS INCARNATION AS JESUS DEFINITELY HAD A BEGINNING, AND THE GLORY THAT ACCRUES TO GOD FROM THOSE WHO ARE NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST JESUS HAS A BEGINNING. WOULD YOU PROVIDE THE SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE(S) YOU HAVE IN MIND?

HERE ARE SOME EXCERPTS FROM MARVIN VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES ON AION AND ITS COGNATES.

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series."

" Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated." (VINCENT DISCUSSES THIS POINT IN GREAT DETAIL)

"There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it." (ALAS, WE ARE THE VICTIMS OF THIS LATER THEOLOGICAL THOUGHT)

I RECOMMEND YOU CHECK OUT THE ENTIRE PASSAGE. IT IS EXCELLENT!AND VINCENT IS THE BEST OF THE BEST WHEN IT COMES TO BIBLICAL GREEK SCHOLARS.

DeborahsSong · Oct 25, 2008

Easyrider said:
Matthew 25:46-NLT
They will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous will go into eternal life.

AIONIOS DOES NOT MEAN ETERNAL. SEE MY PREVIOUS POST WITH EXCERPTS FROM MARVIN VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES. (ALSO THE THREAD HAS DISCUSSED THIS VERSE AD NAUSEAM, INCLUDING THAT THE GREEK WORD USED FOR PUNISHMENT IS KOLASIS, MEANING REMEDIAL, NOT RETRIBUTIVE PUNISHMENT.)

ON SECOND THOUGHT, I HAVE VINCENT'S ON ANOTHER WINDOW, SO WILL INCLUDE HIS REMARKS ON THIS VERSE:

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking." (JESUS SUPPORTS THIS IDEA WHEN HE SAID IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN THAT ETERNAL (AGE DURING) LIFE IS KNOWING GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM HE HAS SENT, CLEARLY REFERRING TO QUALITY, NOT QUANTITY)

Revelation 14:9-12-NLT . . .
They will have no relief day or night,
for they have worshiped the beast
and his statue and have accepted
the mark of his name.

WE ARE NOT CLAIMING THAT THE LAKE OF FIRE IS A CAKEWALK.

Revelation 20:15-NLT . . .
Anyone whose Name was Not Found
Recorded in the Book of Life
was Thrown into the Lake of Fire.

WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS VERSE. HOWEVER, IT'S NOT AN ARGUMENT FOR ETERNAL TORMENT.

John 11:25-NLT . . .
I am the Resurrection and the Life.
Those who Believe in Me, even
though they die like everyone else,
Will Live Again.

WE AGREE WITH THIS GREAT VERSE, BUT IT'S NO ARGUMENT FOR ETERNAL TORMENT.

Isaiah 25:8-NLT . . .
HE will swallow up death forever!

YES, HE WILL. AND THAT INCLUDES THE SECOND DEATH!

Matthew 10:28 . . .
Dont be afraid of those who want to kill you.
They can only kill your body;
they cannot touch your Soul.

HOW IS THIS AN ARGUMENT FOR ETERNAL TORMENT?

Romans 6:23 . . .
The wages of sin is Death,
but the Free Gift of GOD is Eternal Life
Through JESUS CHRIST Our LORD!!

HOW IS THIS AN ARGUMENT FOR ETERNAL TORMENT?

Romans 2:5-6-NLT
But no, you wont listen. So you are
storing up terrible punishment for yourself
because of your stubbornness in refusing
to turn from your sin. For there is going
to come a day of judgment when God,
the just judge of all the world, will judge
all people according to what they have done.

THERE IS PUNISHMENT. THERE IS JUDGMENT. THIS VERSE DOES NOT SUPPORT THE ARGUMENT THAT PUNISHMENT IS ETERNAL.

I HOPE THIS HELPS. IT'S HARD TO TRUDGE THROUGHG 70+ PAGES!

Svt4Him · Oct 25, 2008

DeborahsSong said:
WHAT POST ARE YOU REFERENCING? IN CHECKING SCRIPTURE THAT INCLUDES GLORY AND AIONIOS (KJV), I'M JUST COMING UP WITH THOSE THAT MENTION CHRIST JESUS. WHILE CHRIST IS THE 2ND PERSON OF THE GODHEAD AND WITHOUT BEGINNING, HIS INCARNATION AS JESUS DEFINITELY HAD A BEGINNING, AND THE GLORY THAT ACCRUES TO GOD FROM THOSE WHO ARE NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST JESUS HAS A BEGINNING. WOULD YOU PROVIDE THE SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE(S) YOU HAVE IN MIND?

HERE ARE SOME EXCERPTS FROM MARVIN VINCENT'S WORD STUDIES ON AION AND ITS COGNATES.

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series."

" Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated." (VINCENT DISCUSSES THIS POINT IN GREAT DETAIL)

"There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded. That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it." (ALAS, WE ARE THE VICTIMS OF THIS LATER THEOLOGICAL THOUGHT)

I RECOMMEND YOU CHECK OUT THE ENTIRE PASSAGE. IT IS EXCELLENT!AND VINCENT IS THE BEST OF THE BEST WHEN IT COMES TO BIBLICAL GREEK SCHOLARS.

Why do you type in caps, does it give more authority?

I will now quote various passages of Scripture to shew aion or aionios has the definite meaning of "for ever," or "eternal," in English. No one who has examined its use in Greek questions that it is used for life, or the whole period of a man's existence till he breathes his last; nor that it may be used for ages or periods, looked at as a whole. The question is, Does it not properly mean eternal or for ever, and that where age and age-long would have no sense? Thus Matthew 21: 19, of the fig-tree: Let no fruit grow on thee eis ton aiona. "For the age" has no sense. It never was to grow. So Mark 11: 14. That eternity is not grasped by man as a definite idea is true, because definite is finite, and man, being finite, cannot grasp what is in-finite. It is known only as that which is absolutely; or negatively as that to which end is denied.

Again, Mark 3: 29, oik echei aphesin eis ton aiona. What age? It is not in the age, as some have fraudulently translated it, but "has not ever forgiveness." It is not any particular age; the eis allows no such sense, and the ton would require some particular age, which even so would leave no sense to eis. It can only mean here "for ever." There was a present age and age to come, o aion outos, and o aion o mellon, and well known to the Jews, the olem hazeh, and the olem havo; and an increased measure of forgiveness was looked for in Messiah's age. This sin could be forgiven in neither; no additional increase of forgiveness was looked for beyond Messiah; and each measure belonged to its own age; it was not a prolonged process, but what occurred in each as proper to it. But eis ton aiona, can only mean "for ever," though "for ever" may be used metaphorically when there is no withdrawal of the gift or promise, and the effect cannot last longer than that to which it applies. The gift has no limit (it is, as Aristotle says, apeiria), the existence of that to which it applies may. I do not lend it, I give it for ever; yet what I give, or the person to whom it is given, may cease to exist; but the gift is for ever, without repentance, out and out.

128 So John 4: 14, shall not thirst "for the age": is that the meaning? or never? John 6: 51, 58, "live for ever"; John 10: 28, not perish "to the age": is that the sense? John 13: 8, thou shalt not wash my feet "to the age!" A multitude more may be quoted to the same effect; some with the modified sense I have spoken of above of absolute gift and calling never to be retracted. But eis ton aiona never means "to the age" in any case.

Take 1 Peter 1: 23, 25, logou zontos theou kai menontos eis ton aiona. Does it last only "to the age" (applying it to the logon, not to theou as some do)? So verse 25, rema menei eis ton aiona. So 2 John 2, the truth shall be with us "to the age!" So Jude 13, wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness eis ton aiona. Here again "to the age" has no sense.

Quoted from http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/DOCTRINE/31003E.html

The other verses were addressed in this thread already.

Studious One · Oct 26, 2008

Scripture tells us that hell is only temporary. One day, hell will deliver up her dead to be judged.

Those who are judged before the Great White Throne will be judged and then cast into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

But Death and Hell will be cast into that lake first. There is a reason they must be cast into the lake.

And the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

After death is destroyed in that lake of fire, all those who refused to place their faith in Christ will be cast into the lake of fire.

They cannot ever die, because death has been destroyed.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast or his image, or whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Svt4Him · Oct 26, 2008

They will be, but when they are, it will be eternal, along with all those who chose to go with it. Hell was not made for man, but for angels that rejected God. There is no salvation for them, or for those who follow them.

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2008

DeborahsSong said:
NO ONE IS DENYING THAT THERE IS JUDGEMENT. ADAM AND CAIN WERE JUDGED, BUT GOD DIDN'T STOP DEALING WITH THEM.

PLEASE PROVIDE SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE STATEMENT THAT AFTER DEATH IT IS TOO LATE TO ACCEPT AND RECEIVE HIM. WE'VE HAD THIS CHALLENGE THROUGHOUT THE THREAD, BUT SO FAR, NO TAKERS.

WE BELIEVE GOD IS THE SAME IN THE OT AND NT AND THIS THREAD CONTAINS NUMBEROUS OT SCRIPTURES THAT DEMONSTRATE THE TEMPORAL ASPECT OF HIS PUNISHMENTS AND JUDGEMENTS. WOULD YOU PROVIDE SCRIPTURES THAT SHOW HE PUNISHES FOREVER? THESE WOULD BE SCRIPTURES NOT BASED ON AION OR IT'S COGNATES.

The story of Lazurus and the rich man comes instantly to mind and the gulf that could not be bridged. Also what about Jesus descending into hell, who left? It was the righeous side or paradise, not the demons or others that are in hell. If there is a second chance then why are there demons and angels chained innhell that will be cast into the lake of fire rather than when Jesus went there there would be those brought out.

Studious One · Oct 26, 2008

Paradise cannot be part of hell. Paradise is in the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Consider this also

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The tree of life is in the midst of God's Paradise. Where is the tree of life?

Revelation 22:1-2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The tree of life is in Paradise on either side of the river that proceeds out of God's throne. Paradise is not part of hell.

As to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that is a good illustration. The rich man had no hope whatsoever.

Rajni · Oct 26, 2008

Svt4Him said:
As already shown, this line of reasoning is not entirely accurate, as God's goodness and glory is not temporal, yet use the same Greek terms. So if you say aion has a beginning and an end, can you tell me when God's glory started and when it will end?

You asked a very similar question in post #11 of this thread, and Deborah answered it in post #98.

It would seem we're just rehashing the same things over and over again at this point.

.

Faulty · Oct 26, 2008

chaela said:
You asked a very similar question in post #11 of this thread, and Deborah answered it in post #98.

It would seem we're just rehashing the same things over and over again at this point.

.

And it deserves to be gone over again because her response, and indeed all responses about this, have been selective at best. The reasonings behind the responses have been flimsy and amount to nothing more than a "because I or some guy none of us have ever heard of say so" answer, and yet an entire doctrine is being built on this foundation.

I've been watching this thread, and you're right, there are a lot of areas being gone over time and time again. I think part of the reason is because there is too much on this thread that people don't want to spend a few hours reading it all, but part is because the people asking questing are ending up with answers that just won't hold water.

What's sad is that I don't think those providing these responses are recognizing how flimsy they really are. Reminds me of political-speak, bold words and little substance. There is no 'meat' here to be found here.

psalms 91 · Oct 26, 2008

Studious One said:
Paradise cannot be part of hell. Paradise is in the third heaven.
Consider this also

The tree of life is in the midst of God's Paradise. Where is the tree of life?

The tree of life is in Paradise on either side of the river that proceeds out of God's throne. Paradise is not part of hell.

As to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, that is a good illustration. The rich man had no hope whatsoever.

Asfor paradise and the tree of life you have no argument from me but let me ask who did Jesus preach to in hell and what captivity did He take captive if not those that were righteous and beliieved in Him by faith before He came.

Rajni · Oct 26, 2008

FaultySurplus said:
And it deserves to be gone over again ...

There is no 'meat' here to be found here.

So you want a thread in which you can't find "meat" to be gone over again and again? Makes no sense to me.

.

Studious One · Oct 26, 2008

bill16652 said:
Asfor paradise and the tree of life you have no argument from me but let me ask who did Jesus preach to in hell and what captivity did He take captive if not those that were righteous and beliieved in Him by faith before He came.

Scripture does not say He preached to anybody in hell. It says those He preached to were in prison, but not hell. He certainly set the righteous saints free from the hold that death had on them.

We read that upon His resurrection, many that had been dead were also resurrected.

Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I believe these were the captives that Jesus had freed from the prison called death.

~GodsMouthpiece~ · Oct 26, 2008

Yes everyone is going to heaven..Just not everyone is staying

Studious One · Oct 26, 2008

~GodsMouthpiece~ said:
Yes everyone is going to heaven..Just not everyone is staying

There is some truth to what you write.

In John 10 and the first few verses, we learn from Jesus Himself that some will enter in through their own ways and not through Him. He is the door.

When a thief or a robber breaks into your home, he does not break in so he can stay there. He breaks in to rob the place.

I believe Jesus' illustration here shows us many will indeed be thieves and robber's. They will enter in by another way.

But, they will fall into the hands of the living God. Just as you would not allow a thief or robber to remain in your house, God will not allow a thief or robber to remain in His. Those that do not enter in by the door will be judged as thieves and robbers.

Just as thieves and robbers, when caught, are cast into prison, those that enter in by any other way than through Jesus Christ will be cast into outer darkness... into that lake than burns with fire and brimstone.

Is Everybody going to heaven?

Will everyone go to heaven?

Yes: Hell does not exist

Yes: Hell does exist but it is not permenant (God will rehab every soul)

No:There is a literal hell and those who go there never come back

I don't have an opinion / undecided

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