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So He's Savior of only some of the world."The whole world", in it's Jewish context means that God's Salvation isn't limited to descendents of Abraham anymore, but is also open to Gentiles. It does not mean that every gentile is saved.
Boy, that sounds like it would be alot of work ... Can you show me precisely where I've "taken everything out of context"?Why do you keep taking everything out of context?
So He's Savior of only some of the world.Got it.
No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.
Originally Posted by Yekcidmij
Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.
No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)
"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".
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No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)
"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".
Originally Posted by chaela
No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)
"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".
What does 2:4 say?
"who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
Now does it say that everyone is saved and that everyone comes to knowledge of truth? Nope. Who is the "everyone" refering to? It's talking about Jews plus Gentlies. He wants all men to be saved, not just Jews anymore. "All men" means it's not just Jewish believers who are saved, but "all men", Jews and Gentiles who believe. He's writing with this intent because Timothy, a GENTILE teacher, needs to understand it. And my 2:4 doesn't say "especially believers". Actually, none of them do. You are just blatantly reading into the text now and prove one of my points - eisigesis.
2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle I am telling the truth; I am not lying and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Again, you don't feel the need to address all the verses that have been posted, all that has been done by you is to try posting another verse instead. This a fallacious tactic called a red herring. A verse is posted to you, and you effectually just say, "well look at this verse". I'm sorry there is a tension in your worldview where you don't feel the need to beleive the entire witness of scripture. If you don't want to believe it all, then just say your opinion is that parts of scripture are wrong and get it over with. When you cherrypick scripture, just own up to what you're doing.
What does 2:4 say?
"who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
Now does it say that everyone is saved and that everyone comes to knowledge of truth? Nope.
Amen!2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle I am telling the truth; I am not lying and a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Could you show me where "all that has been done by me is to try posting another verse instead", and that it is due to my not "feeling the need to address all the verses that have been posted"? (Do you know how big CF is ... one would essentially have to not have a life outside cyberspace to have the time to address "all the verses that have been posted").Again, you don't feel the need to address all the verses that have been posted, all that has been done by you is to try posting another verse instead.
Could you show me where I effectually just say "well look at this verse"?A verse is posted to you, and you effectually just say, "well look at this verse".
You're making alot of claims here. Again, could you pinpoint where exactly this tension in my worldview is, and precisely where you know what I do or don't feel the need to believe? In attempting to analyze other posters, you're derailing the thread.I'm sorry there is a tension in your worldview where you don't feel the need to beleive the entire witness of scripture.
A little bit of advice: On debate forums, it's always "cherrypicking scriptures" when they don't prove one's own point. But you knew that!If you don't want to believe it all, then just say your opinion is that parts of scripture are wrong and get it over with. When you cherrypick scripture, just own up to what you're doing.
pardon me, but you sound confused or is it just confusing reading your posts?
Nor does it say that most everyone won't be saved nor come to a knowledge of the truth.
Do you seriously believe that God, who knows the end from the beginning, would indulge in the desire for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved if He thought even for a moment that most of them would not?
Matt 26:28 "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
John 10:3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 10:4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice.
10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
10:14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me – 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Matt 25:32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Originally Posted by Yekcidmij
Those that believe in Him, yes. He's not a savior but a judge to those that don't believe. Sorry if that offends you.
Originally Posted by chaela
No worries, it doesn't offend me at all. I simply believe a bit differently, that He is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 2:4)
"Especially" of believers ... not "exclusively".
Which one do you need help figuring out?
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How does that verse not prove my point?So you knowingly posted a verse that didn't prove your point? Is that deceitful?
Where does God specifically say "Not all men are saved", or even "Not all men will be freed from corruption?"I go by the witness of scripture. God says not all men are saved.
Which do you think comprises "many": "All" or merely "a few"?Matt 26:28 "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." "Many", not all. Do you need more verses? I have a few pages worth.
Will all men ultimately be His "sheep"? Yep. I've got more than a few pages worth of scripture to support that, but since such an effort wouldn't be supportive of Christian Partialism, it might be considered "cherry picking", so I'll spare you the Maraschinos.John 10:3 The doorkeeper opens the door for him, and the sheep hear his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 10:4 When he has brought all his own sheep out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they recognize his voice.
10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
10:14 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Are all men His "sheep"? Nope.
His "sheep" are the ones that know His voice.
Will all men ultimately know the voice of the Messiah? Yep.Do all men know the voice of the Messiah? Nope.
LOL, okay, now I'm finding your posts confusing, Brinny. "Hmmm" is right!then i posted a response about you appearing confused...ie:it is confusing reading your posts...or what i'm thinking now...that you appear confused.....hmmm
No, your case isn't rested yet.I rest my case. You do not make a solid case for what it is you claim to believe in....you just appear to be authoring confusion...and one thing is certain here...God is not the author of confusion.
This is not true Sammul had a body when Saul had him called up from the grave.
So Jesus failed on the cross to take all judgement?
So walking on the water before that event is out of the question? Our is God - God and He could do whatever He was told by the Father?
LOL, okay, now I'm finding your posts confusing, Brinny. "Hmmm" is right!
No, your case isn't rested yet.You didn't answer my question. You mentioned that my posts (plural) were confusing. Then you pick, as the Shining Example of how confusing my posts are, my most recent one, which merely offers to help you figure out whichever post(s) were confusing you.
So forgive me if I come away with the same impression of you: Dancing in circles, stirring up confusion, due to not having any solid response to what I've been contributing here.
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This has to do with taking the God-breathed Scriptures seriously when they declare that God is the Savior of the whole world (not just a small fraction of it)..
Amen. Few find it. However, it doesn't unequivocally state "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation".
Let's take a look at the above verse, though, while we're here, being careful not to claim the "correct" interpretation of a verse by adding words and ideas that aren't there (otherwise, one runs the risk of adding to God's word).
It says that few will find the narrow gateway and difficult road to life. Is our salvation actually based on a literal "good work" on our part of finding a literal gateway or walking along a rugged road located somewhere? Or do you think Jesus was speaking in figurative terms here?
The most likely answer to these questions (depending on what flavor of Christianity one hails from of course) would be that it's figurative, that the gate is Jesus and the road is obeying His commandments.
Okay, then, few there be that find Jesus. Is this not much of a shocker, when we read in Romans 3:9-12:"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is no one who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.'"Not even one. Wow! So, yeah, to say that "few" either find Jesus or obey His commandments seems to be a very nice way of saying that nobody finds or obeys Him.
How many does He find, though? Now that gets interesting!
Read any parable about the lost whatever being sought with no rest until it's found, and you have your answer. No, those parables are not about people seeking God until they find Him, because, as we just saw in Romans 3 above, nobody does that. So interpreting any parable to say that they do would be to contradict this fact. No, those parables are talking about God looking for each and every last member of humankind until He finds them and brings them to Himself.
So, we're back to where we started. Again, let me know when you find the verse that clearly states that "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation".
The argument isn't about whether or not God has ever cursed, indeed, He has done that.
Let me repeat, the Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!" (Galatians 3:13). So to be cursed isn't necessarily a permanent condition, given that Jesus, who outright became a curse in our place, is sitting in Heaven now, at the right hand of the Father.
FA, remember what you rightly said in post #470:
Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here... Now on to impersonal discussion, please!
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