Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
We always pick and choose what we like, even when reading the beloved Bible. How many of us take Jesus seriously regarding what He told the rich young ruler? We claim to take to heart what He told other people, why not that? The rule is simple. Determine if the message is applicable to you. If you are pulling God's strings you will suffer the consequences. You cannot fool God. If you want to fool me on that, do it to your heart's content.Sophia7 said:How do we decide, though, without just picking and choosing what we like?
payattention said:The problem begins with your view of the Bible and inspiration. Deep inside most Christians, including Adventists, believe that God plugged into the biblical writers and gave them the Bible. We know that is not what happened but that how we view it. Inspiration is the process by which men receive information that they are not taught by other humans. There is nothing special about it. It is happens to every one. Because we have an elevated view of the Bible and inspiration we now don't know how to handle EGW relative to the Bible. The proper view is that what really matters is the truth about the character of God regardless of the source from which we obtain it.
The only problem with your statement is that Ellen White definitely took the dream as a direct message from God. As a result of her dream, she said, "I have no duty to stand in General Conference. The Lord forbids me. That is enough." Whether or not it actually was, she interpreted it that way.Here again we are reading through our own filters. There was a message in the dream does not mean that God decided to send her a dream. He could have but it does not necessarily follow.
The reality is that we do treat the Bible the same way we treat any other book. In spite of our boasts I know of know one who consistently says, "this is what the Bible says so this is what I do." We interpret it to death and decide what applies and what does not apply. That is not deference. The only way in which we are somewhat true to our words is in teaching. We do not teach with the same authority from other religious books as we do from the Bible but that is about it.Sophia7 said:Inspiration might happen to everyone, but not everyone is a prophet. And we should have an elevated view of the Bible and inspiration. Otherwise, how can the Bible be any more authoritative than any other religious book?
I don't believe she was a prophet because Christ nullified the need for prophets. She was a messenger from God whose messages have to be tested as the messages from any other messenger.Sophia7 said:The only problem with your statement is that Ellen White definitely took the dream as a direct message from God. As a result of her dream, she said, "I have no duty to stand in General Conference. The Lord forbids me. That is enough." Whether or not it actually was, she interpreted it that way.
AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
1CO 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines....
1CO 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.....
1CO 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Jesus made reference to the Scriptures used by the Jews to validate His office as the Messiah. This does not mean that He intended them to maintain the same position they had then. Nor does it mean that He accepted every think that were in those Scriptures. He certainly did not agree that the earth is fixed but He was the Word so it really did not matter what the OT scriptures said. God has written His law in our hearts and that is all that matters. There is nothing wrong with getting guidance from the Bible or any other religious book, but when we use the Bible to contradict what nature reveals of God we have stepped into a minefield.tall73 said:a. Jesus clearly accepted certain books as Scripture in His day. So whatever we may think of the cannonization process of the NT, the OT seems rather settled as more than just any other book. If you want to say people don't go by it, that is the fault of the people, not a limitation on the book.
I use a different standard. I judge everything by what it says about the Creator. If what Paul says denigrates the Creator I put it down to Paul's humanity. If Ghandi or the Dalai Lama says something that is in line with the character of God then I accept it. I give my allegiance to only One.tall73 said:I would agree that the same Spirit gives the messages. It is just as inspired. But the community has accepted a body of texts which have been thoroughly tested, with the OT accepted by the Savior Himself. Those are a measure that we use safely to guage other revelation by. Others may be just inspired, but they are tested by what came before them.
The gift of prophecy is still available to men and God may manifest it at different times in different people. But, the office of prophet was nullified when Jesus arrived. The people were to follow the prophet without question because of where they were in relation to the Creator, like some who is being led out of a forest by a guide. When Christ arrived there was no longer a need for someone of that authority, just as the guide is no longer needed when the individual is back on the familiar road. But God uses many different people as messengers. He may use you and He may use me. But we are to test every message because sometimes the enemy spams.tall73 said:c. Where do you find that God no longer needed prophets? The gifts of the spirit are for all ages.
<snip>
So, lets have it. You already said you don't accpet EGW as a prophet (right after saying she was on an equal level with the Bible, that all inspiration is the same), so are you saying that the Bible writers were not prophets either?
Not only is this a misrepresentation of what I believe, the conclusion does not logically follow. I won't spend time debunking it.tall73 said:If saying that there is no longer an office of prophet is your way of getting around what God says by the gift of prophecy you basically are saying you don't care what God says.
Everyone sets himself as the final arbiter of who is speaking for the Creator because that is how He wants it. That is why he asked each individual to test every spirit. He did not ask you to ask someone else to test the Spirit for you. You live according to what you believe God is saying. You won't be able to say at the end "This is what Matthew said, even though I did not agree with him." God judges each according to what he believes not according to what someone else believes. I expect each man to be the final arbiter of what he believes God is saying. Each man knows if he is faking or not. For this reason I do not spend my time convincing men as to what they should think but in teaching them how to think. God wants us to depend on our minds not on our memories.tall73 said:<snip>
Do you not realize that you have just set YOURSELF up as the final arbiter of who is speaking for the Creator and who is not?
<snip>
This is obviously now clarified by the fact that if YOU AGREE with something it is God speaking.
But, despite your consistency, I don't agree with you at all.
payattention said:Hold on. Where did you get the idea that I discount EGW? You may have mixed me up with someone else. I follow the essential teaching of Hebrews 1:1-21 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
It is not that simple. When the writer chooses to write and some are offended the writer may be banished to Australia or have his integrity challenged and be accused of fraudulently adopting an icon to which he is not entitled.tall73 said:God inspires the writer to do what?
perhaps write?
I am not saying her very words were inspired. I am asking if you think any of the THOUGHTS were inspired.
You seem to say yes, and that you must validate it. Fair enough, that was not hard was it? I only asked because I think you COULD be much clearer than you had been.
See my reply on the other conversation. I would rather you express your views openly, and if were up to me I would let anyone into this forum to ask any questions they wanted if they were following forum rules. But I too intend to continue asking questions if I am not seeing eye to eye, and I think that is legitimate.payattention said:It is not that simple. When the writer chooses to write and some are offended the writer may be banished to Australia or have his integrity challenged and be accused of fraudulently adopting an icon to which he is not entitled.
since this was over a year and a half ago. i was wondering if you still believe this? sophia7 current posting would indicate that you have changed your mind on the subject could you clarify please.If God does not give different degrees of inspiration, why would the writings of Ellen White not be placed on the same level as the Bible? By the way, I don't think that they should; if anything that Ellen White says contradicts the Bible, I would have to believe the Bible.
I believe that Ellen White was inspired and a prophet, but there are a few things that she wrote that seem to go against the Bible. I came across one in particular a couple of weeks ago that I have a hard time with. It is from the book The Retirement Years, chapter 13, "The Hour of Bereavement," pp. 161-163. I believe this portion was originally from a letter (Letter 17, 1881) written to her son after the death of James. I am quoting this not to undermine anyone's belief that EGW was a prophet but because former Adventists and anti-Adventists often use this as a reason to get rid of Ellen White, and I really want to know how to reconcile this with the Bible.
My question on this is why would God give Ellen White a dream in which she talks to her dead husband and gets advice from him? If I had such a dream, I would not believe that it was God talking to me through the dream since the Bible says that we are not supposed to talk to the dead. This was not just a normal dream because God obviously was giving her a message through it.
My other question about Ellen White is that, realizing that she is human and fallible, how do we know which things she wrote are inspired and which things are her opinion and which things were informed by the time period in which she lived more than they were inspired by God? When she wrote letters to people, were they always inspired? Certainly, not everything she wrote was, was it? Some people believe that we should accept only the Conflict of the Ages series and her visions as inspired, but I don't believe that. How do we decide, though, without just picking and choosing what we like?
Is Ellen White the final interpreter of Scripture for SDA?
Of course she is. This is even under question? There is not one doctrine the church holds that has not passed the 'Ellen' test. If she does not endorse it, the church never has nor ever will accept it. Anyone who thinks Adventism is a progressive denomination where people are free to study for themselves and come to thier own conclusions is either lying or in complete denial.
Just ask Samuele Bacchiocchi if any Adventist is free to come to different conclusions than what Ellen endorsed.
She is the final word on any theological matter in the church, period. And when a fallible human is given that sort of authoritative theological license you know you are on the fringes of cult mentality.
Not even Graeme Bradford's groundbreaking, excellent book More Than A Prophet will move the fanatical, fundamentalist EGW worshippers one inch. He is already a marked man by the right-wing and just as hated and maligned as Ford.
Just goes to show how utterly futile a task it is to bring some reason, sanity and balance to this church.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?