Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?

[tadoflamb]

That post was a bit of a joke my friend but it does show that not all EO are against unity.

To begin to learn about orthodox Orthodoxy I would refer you here:
http://www.ec-patr.org/athp/index.php?lang=en

and to find their leaders to finding out more about them:
http://www.gcatholic.com/hierarchy/patriarchs.htm

Keep in mind, though the EP is a great EO Patriarch, "officially", his views differ still from all 21 Catholic EO Churches that are in union with Rome. Those differences (while many are not differences either) are what are being worked out between Rome and the EO in Ravenna and have been for over a decade now.

For a worste case scenario Not shared with the majority of the EO I would offer you this example of polemics from a Bishop who an Asthetic EO Hiermonk I know thinks he believes himself to be the only true Bishop on Earth. http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/heretics_roman_catholics_brief_replies_papal_innovations.shtml

Peace Tad.

Doh!

I better check links before thanking you again. :o

Pax Christi,

Tad

 

[JoabAnias]

Sorry, I meant Divine Liturgy not Mass. Obviously going to Mass won't teach you about Orthodoxy anymore than going to Liturgy will teaching you about Catholicism.

Ah, my dear sister, the point is that both are apostolic Liturgies and not at all opposed to each other.

We know the meaning of Liturgy as well even if it is a different rite that we partake of.

Peace.

 

[zhilan]

Ah, my dear sister, the point is that both are apostolic Liturgies and not at all opposed to each other.

We know the meaning of Liturgy as well even if it is a different rite that we partake of.

Peace.

I didn't mean to suggest that they were opposed to each other, only to clarify that I meant that if you want to learn about Orthodox theology you should go to Orthodox liturgy. =)

 

[JoabAnias]

I didn't mean to suggest that they were opposed to each other, only to clarify that I meant that if you want to learn about Orthodox theology you should go to Orthodox liturgy. =)

I thought thats what you meant. Its my meaning that we wouldn't learn anything new as all rites are equal and teach the same apostolic faith. Do you see where suggesting that seems to pit one rite against another now?

Peace.

 

[zhilan]

I thought thats what you meant. Its my meaning that we wouldn't learn anything new as all rites are equal and teach the same apostolic faith. Do you see where suggesting that seems to pit one rite against another now?

Peace.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I mean the literal words of our liturgy will teach you our theology. The hymn are literally a reading in theology. I wasn't trying to be philosophical, it is literally where you can learn our beliefs and theology.

So in that sense, you would not learn about Orthodoxy from the Catholic Mass because the Mass does not teach Orthodox theology (just as the Orthodox DL does not teach Catholic theology).

It's not a value judgment in any way.

 

[ThePilgrim]

I think its more likely less than 20 years off.

Peace and many years.

If you think that, you are, most likely, deceived.

Please, trust Orthodox opinions on the mood of Orthodox people and Orthodox Churches.

Barring major, world changing upheaval, this is not something that will happen within any of our lifetimes. Besides the nature of authority in the Church (which isn't anywhere near being solved), the filioque, and a myriad of smaller issues, there's also the issue of everything that changed in the Catholic Church at Vatican II. While it helped in some areas, it other areas it widened the gap seriously between us.

"Reunion" is not something that's just going to happen based on a few Patriarchs sitting in a room and talking over a glass of Greek wine. It's going to require major, major changes that reach down to the lay level, on one side or the other (depending on which of us you believe is right, which I obviously won't debate here).

Grace and peace,
John

 

[zhilan]

I don't see quite where you are saying they are the same because the Catholic Mass is quite different from the Orthodox DL and is not the same words or hymn, so while they both may be glorifying God and worshiping Him in a Liturgical form, they are not the same in terms of what is literally said.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Great! I'll go look online for the GIRM.

GIRM?

 

[zhilan]

GIRM?

It's the Catholic Missle.

 

[JoabAnias]

If you think that, you are, most likely, deceived.

Please, trust Orthodox opinions on the mood of Orthodox people and Orthodox Churches.

"Reunion" is not something that's just going to happen based on a few Patriarchs sitting in a room and talking over a glass of Greek wine. It's going to require major, major changes that reach down to the lay level, on one side or the other (depending on which of us you believe is right, which I obviously won't debate here).

Grace and peace,
John

Its got nothing to do with your moods or opinions. They are of the flesh and would pave the way to hades if acted upon just as they led to the schism.

Healing the schism officially is up to our Patriarchs. The meetings in Ravenna are conciliar and the animosities shared by the EO faithful are not shared by their Apostolic Patriarchs toward Rome and the laity need to prepare themselves to follow their Patriarchs in their binding decisions just as the 21 Catholic EO Churches already have. Officially the schism will be healed before its expressed in its essence among the laity because the laity are to follow, not the other way around nor has the paradosis of the faith ever been this way despite the obstinant bigotry of some claiming autocephaly as a God given right which it is not. We will never be divinised as equals with God.

Peace.

 

[ThePilgrim]

I don't have to. If I thought it was up to the laity it would never happen. I follow the Patriarchs and Bishops.

They are the ones getting it done. Once they officially heal the schism it will be a whole new ball game.

Peace.

The Patriarchs and bishops aren't optimistic about things in the near future either. Why do you assume that we're disconnected from our hierarchs? I know several bishops here in the United States decently well and have talked to them about these issues and what they think about them. I also have talked in depth with the archpriest dean of a diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine when I attended his parish over a three month period of time, and know very well his view on the Catholic Church, as well as the predominant view among both the clergy and the laity.

Why on earth do you keep assuming that you know our bishops better than we do, and that they're secretly planning to put some sort of reunion into affect in the short term.

I can tell you without doubt that both among the bishops, priests, and laypeople, the general opinion (ie the vast majority opinion) doesn't see anything like that happening in the short term at all, and that if and when it comes, it will come as the result of *serious* changes within Catholicism.

Why do you continue arrogantly to act like you know us better than we know ourselves?

Grace and peace,
John

 

[JoabAnias]

GIRM?

General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

You can find the rubrics of the faith on-line quite easily just as any teaching of the Church.

Peace.

 

[zhilan]

Its got nothing to do with your moods or opinions. They are of the flesh and would pave the way to hades if acted upon just as they led to the schism.

Healing the schism officially is up to our Patriarchs. The meetings in Ravenna are conciliar and the animosities shared by the EO faithful are not shared by their Apostolic Patriarchs toward Rome and the laity need to prepare themselves to follow their Patriarchs in their binding decisions just as the 21 Catholic EO Churches already have. Officially the schism will be healed before its expressed in its essence among the laity because the laity are to follow, not the other way around nor has the paradosis of the faith ever been this way despite the obstinant bigotry of some claiming autocephaly as a God given right which it is not. We will never be divinised as equals with God.

Peace.

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if the Schism was healed - and the Pope agreed to take the place as first among equals and denounce infallibility and the immaculate conception?

Would you follow him? It seems that you assume that the Schism healing would be the Orthodox coming fully under Rome, but what would you do if the opposite happened?

 

[ThePilgrim]

Well then obviously your not following what they are doing over the past 10 Orthodox-Catholic ecumenical and conciliar plenary sessions. I think the majority of the Eo will be shocked by a healing of the schism. That speaks volumes imho.

In the Catholic-Orthodox dialogues, the Orthodox participants have always been clear in saying that we believe that the Orthodox Church **is** the Church. We've also continually restated our positions on authority in the Church and other issues.

Do you think they're some how about to change their minds on these issues? If so, what leads you to think so?

Grace and peace,
John

 

[JoabAnias]

The Patriarchs and bishops aren't optimistic about things in the near future either.

I think they are.

Why do you assume that we're disconnected from our hierarchs?

Where did I say that?

I know several bishops here in the United States decently well and have talked to them about these issues and what they think about them. I also have talked in depth with the archpriest dean of a diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine when I attended his parish over a three month period of time, and know very well his view on the Catholic Church, as well as the predominant view among both the clergy and the laity.

Good for you.

Why on earth do you keep assuming that you know our bishops better than we do, and that they're secretly planning to put some sort of reunion into affect in the short term.

Theres no secret about it. Its been in public view and in the media for over a decade. Where have you been?

I can tell you without doubt that both among the bishops, priests, and laypeople, the general opinion (ie the vast majority opinion) doesn't see anything like that happening in the short term at all, and that if and when it comes, it will come as the result of *serious* changes within Catholicism.

What do you think is going on in Ravenna anyway?

Why do you continue arrogantly to act like you know us better than we know ourselves?

Nothing arrogant about the truth.


Peace.

 

[zhilan]

Pilgram makes a good point. Our bishops visit our churches quite often, even very small parishes can expect a visit at least once a year or so. My home parish is actually the Cathedral, so since that was the Bishops home parish, our priests would know about these things. It's unlikely that something big would happen without anyone knowing it - the Bishops are quite involved in everyday parish life.

 

[JoabAnias]

In the Catholic-Orthodox dialogues, the Orthodox participants have always been clear in saying that we believe that the Orthodox Church **is** the Church. We've also continually restated our positions on authority in the Church and other issues.

Please cite your sources.

I don't recall any statements saying that either Church is not the true Church.

Do you think they're some how about to change their minds on these issues? If so, what leads you to think so?

I never said anything about anyone changing their minds. I just said they are working on it. Why do you make such an assumption?

I thought you said you were for unity, now your appearing against it. What gives there?

Peace.

 

[JoabAnias]

Pilgram makes a good point. Our bishops visit our churches quite often, even very small parishes can expect a visit at least once a year or so. My home parish is actually the Cathedral, so since that was the Bishops home parish, our priests would know about these things. It's unlikely that something big would happen without anyone knowing it - the Bishops are quite involved in everyday parish life.

Thats true. You most likely will know about it. Your finding out about the work by our Patriarchs in Ravenna by this thread right? Its not unknown but its rather recent in the scope of history. Many believe that breakthroughs will be made within the next 10-20 years and I agree with them as I follow the results.

Peace.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Ah, my dear sister, the point is that both are apostolic Liturgies and not at all opposed to each other.

We know the meaning of Liturgy as well even if it is a different rite that we partake of.

Peace.

But both liturgies have changed since the time of the Apostles and even since the time of the schism. If you want to know about Orthodox theology, going to a modern Catholic liturgy won't teach you anymore than going to a modern Orthodox liturgy will teach you about Catholic theology.

What Zhilan said wasn't a denigration of Catholic liturgics. It was an answer to the question of where to find Orthodox theology.

Grace and peace,
John

 

[JoabAnias]

But both liturgies have changed since the time of the Apostles and even since the time of the schism. If you want to know about Orthodox theology, going to a modern Catholic liturgy won't teach you anymore than going to a modern Orthodox liturgy will teach you about Catholic theology.

I'd agree but this is out of the context of what our sister was saying. She was making the point about how the Liturgy sustained the ROC during its persecution. I contend any Liturgical rite would do the same. Nothing more.

What Zhilan said wasn't a denigration of Catholic liturgics. It was an answer to the question of where to find Orthodox theology.

Nor do I think it was a denigration at all either. Only incomplete in the fact that the other rites are just as efficatious which I felt a need to point out to build us up and bring us closer together.

The center of all rites is the same Jesus in the Eucharist. As it stands we cannot share that communion. This is what must be reversed for us to grow in unity.

Peace.