Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?

[ScottBot]

I spent about a year debating with non-Catholic EO over on Catholic Answers. Was suspended a few times myself and saw the EO convert moderator Joe Monohan let go and about 25 EO members finally banned and the thread title and focus changed from EO to EOC when the EO consistently began insisting they were Catholic which was just confusing everyone.

I have to tell you, in all that time there were some very heated and hurtful remarks from both sides, even from one Hiermonk that had nearly 20,000 posts.

What I took away from the experience, despite all the varying differences of opinion and denial of doctrine and development of doctrine, anti-catholicism and Latinizations is that I can place all the differences between the East and the West into one nut shell summation:

It's all about obedience to God's Authority.

There is no question that the EO (and EOC) are apostolic and adversely that autocephaly is NOT a God given right and one that can be lost through schism irregardless.

Peace.

Joe converted?

I used to mod over there. My mod name was Peter Wright.

 

[ScottBot]

I would never want to say anything bad about him, only that it would be wrong to believe that he, or any one man, speaks for the Orthodox Church.

So, who does? If I want to make sure that I have the correct take on Orthodoxy, where do I go?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi knight

I hope tnis helps you - I can only share an abbreviated version of my story right now.

I was raised EO in a family of priests. My father had been prepared for the priesthood according to the tradition in my family but he chose something else, so my uncle became a priest as his father had, etc.

As a preteen, I became intrigued with the occult and was on my wey to becoming a white witch when God grabbed a hold of me in a Campus Life prayer meeting/bible study. I stepped into the room and literally stepped into God's presence - overwhelming me. I have virtually no memory of that meeting except the overwhelming presence of God pressing in on me from all sides.

Three nights later God revealed my sins to me, showing me my soul covered in black spots lifting them up to me one by one to repent of.

I had a deep and profound conversion that night and awakened a completely different person. However I turned to my friends in highschool and shared what had just happened.

What followed next was indoctrination into protest beliefs and I became protestant for the next 3O years while maintaining ties to my uncle's church.

It was 8 years ago, after having a very varied experience in protestant churches, I came across information about the Protestant reformation that shook my world to its very foundation And what was left me was Christ.

From that point I began to build again realizing that if I wanted real Christianity I needed the same Christianity the first christians had.

So I began my plunge into the past and suddenly found myself confronted with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

It rook me 3 years of intense research, study and prayer, and all the way, right up to the end, I intended never to be Catholic and always thought I would return to the EO Church.

I was very biased against the Catholic Church, but was drawn by a hunger and thirst for truth.

In the end, it finally came down to the issue of authority and the Papacy. was Peter who the Orthodox say he is? If so, I had no choice but to return to the Orthodox Church.

Or was Peter who the Catholics say he is? If so I had no choice but to become Catholic.

You know the rest.

It wasn't until after I came into Church that I discovered how the Orthodox Church has not maintained Apostolic teaching int he areas I mentioned earlier. This was another shock but it further confirmed to me the Catholic Church as the only Church in which the fullness of truth has been preserved for all in union with the See of Peter.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Bishop Ware, while a holy man, is not actually God.

That said, TLF, I invite you to come to TAW where you can gain a fuller understanding on the Orthodox position on birth control and why we hold the positions we do. While you seem to feel that any evolution is proof that we are not the true church, we would bed to differ. =)

The bottom line is that EO allows contraception and divorce in some cases. These are outright changes form the historical teaching which has only been kept constant by the Catholic Church.

But I mean no offense to you, I like your posts in general.

 

[WarriorAngel]

A Catholic friend of mine told me that Catholics believe that the Orthodox are part of the "True Church."

Is he right when he says this?

Dave Armstrong said in his book Orthodoxy and Catholicism: A Comparison that Catholics "must believe that Orthodoxy is part of the universal Church." He cites the Vat II and Papal encyclicals.

All this sounds heretical to me.

Sure they have Apostolic Succession, and sure they are Churches, but that doesn't make them any less schismatic from the visible Church of Christ.

Does it?

I have been led to believe that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ, and the EO, even though they have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments, are in schism with the True Church.

I am I wrong on this? If I am, can y'all show me how from like the CCC or something authoritave?

I want to make sure that my understanding of the Church is following Catholic dogma. I am still learning about the Catholic Faith and I really am confused now.


Thanks in advance.

They are schismatic. And their Eucharist is valid but illicit. [I believe]
They are schismed sect of the Church.
And until we reunite... our Eucharists are seperate.

 

[zhilan]

Zhilan - I dodn't think correcting those who either seek to mislead or are wrong in what they teach about Orthodoxy is considered debate. I think you can feel free to post corrections and explainations where you see fit I've seen your posts here for years - and I've never seen you be anything but respectful. If you get reported by someone, they're the problem, not you. Feel free to teach us about your Faith, just don't try to teach us about ous and there shouldn't be any issues.

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I will get reported if I do that, because I get reported for much smaller things. So I think I must err on the safe side so as not to be totally kicked out of obob.

 

[ScottBot]

I am quite sure that if you present the proper Orthodox position in a non-confrontational manner, there won't be any problems.

 

[JoabAnias]

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I will get reported if I do that, because I get reported for much smaller things. So I think I must err on the safe side so as not to be totally kicked out of obob.

It should be safe to dispassionately present what you believe with no agenda or judgement. Of course you should expect to get the adverse opinion which is liable to inflame so your prudence is probably wise.

Peace.

 

[zhilan]

I am curious why you think you are going out on a limb by saying that?

I never even suggested such a thing. This is why I have so little intereste indebating such issues with EO here - what I presentt is twisted out of context and arguments are made in rebuttal that have absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

I am weary of dealing with such logical inconsistancies, and so choose not to engage them.

I presented his comment as the document the changethat has occurred in thi area. He is not giving us his personal teaching, but telling us what is bing taught in the EO Churches.

Did you actually read my post??? That's not even anywhere close to trying to be God.


Evolution

Change from on thing to another.

Evolution

Here changing the nature of something universally condemned as sinful, what the ECF's universally condemned as sinful, even worse than murder, changing into something not sinful .........

NO my friend, that is NOT the mark of the true Church.

Ok, the thing about going out on a limb was intended but to lighthearted, but in the future I will remember no jokes when I talk to you.

Again, I'd love to respond to what you say, but I can't here, so if you want to know what I have to say I invite you to either TAW or the Apostolic forum (just be sure to let me know because normally I don't go to that one). If you don't want to know the Orthodox position then that's fine. No one is forcing you to.

All I'm trying to do, once more, is make it clear that anyone who wishes to learn the true teachings of Orthodoxy, please come to TAW and ask. We will be more than happy to assist. I'm sure you would want someone to go to actual Catholics rather than a bitter (or otherwise disenfranchised) ex-Catholic to learn about the Catholic church, and we just ask the same.

I think its more likely less than 20 years off.

Peace and many years.

20 years?! You clearly have not spent a lot of time around Orthodox. Let me tell you something, we are slower than your grandma after a hip-replacement. It takes us like 500 years to come to agreements on the best hummus recipe.

So, who does? If I want to make sure that I have the correct take on Orthodoxy, where do I go?

Liturgy.

 

[ScottBot]

Liturgy.

Great! I'll go look online for the GIRM.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Great! I'll go look online for the GIRM.

You so funny

 

[zhilan]

Great! I'll go look online for the GIRM.

I don't think we have a GIRM....

Look up the hymn of the Church and the Liturgy. Honestly that's the best source for Orthodox theology. During the Soviet times, the Communist took away our icons, our bibles, our churches, but Orthodoxy survived because we still had the Liturgy and most truly that is the heart of Orthodoxy. If you get a book on the hymn of the Church and read that you will pretty much get a good understanding of what we believe. Of course, better than reading them is to experience it in person! =)

 

[JoabAnias]

20 years?! You clearly have not spent a lot of time around Orthodox. Let me tell you something, we are slower than your grandma after a hip-replacement. It takes us like 500 years to come to agreements on the best hummus recipe.

I don't have to. If I thought it was up to the laity it would never happen. I follow the Patriarchs and Bishops.

They are the ones getting it done. Once they officially heal the schism it will be a whole new ball game.

Peace.

 

[zhilan]

It should be safe to dispassionately present what you believe with no agenda or judgement. Of course you should expect to get the adverse opinion which is liable to inflame so your prudence is probably wise.

Peace.

I am quite sure that if you present the proper Orthodox position in a non-confrontational manner, there won't be any problems.

If whoever is the head-hancho mod tells me I can explain where Orthodoxy has been misrepresented, I will happily comply, but otherwise I think I must just issue an invitation to TAW because things that I would have never thought were debating apparently are and this is a much more touchy area than those, so I want to be conservative here and not get myself into more trouble than I already do!

 

[zhilan]

I don't have to. If I thought it was up to the laity it would never happen. I follow the Patriarchs and Bishops.

They are the ones getting it done. Once they officially heal the schism it will be a whole new ball game.

Peace.

But they are even slower than us! Seriously, I remember my priest telling me there is supposed to be a council over fasting practices that is like 300 years overdue. And it took, what 50 years, to bring ROCOR back even though there were ZERO doctrinal differences.

Just remember we're like fat kids in dodgeball, we don't move as fast as the rest of the class. ;-D

 

[Romans 13:3]

I am a professional authority figure and I think it would be OK. But I am not a moderator.

 

[JoabAnias]

Joe converted?

I used to mod over there. My mod name was Peter Wright.

Converted - To Catholic. Sry if that wasn't clear. His background was EO though. I was sorry to see him let go but it was at times a bit like having a EO permissive moderator. Were all human I suppose. He was awesome though and I learned allot from him and he was more merciful than most which I appreciated very much. The problem there wasn't with moderation though, but with proselytization and discord among the posters. It was a great relief to see the focus change and much peace ensued.


Peace.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

I don't have to. If I thought it was up to the laity it would never happen. I follow the Patriarchs and Bishops.

They are the ones getting it done. Once they officially heal the schism it will be a whole new ball game.

Peace.

Which begs to question.......what type of ball game?We all know it depends on WHAT type of ball game.

 

[JoabAnias]

But they are even slower than us! Seriously, I remember my priest telling me there is supposed to be a council over fasting practices that is like 300 years overdue. And it took, what 50 years, to bring ROCOR back even though there were ZERO doctrinal differences.

Just remember we're like fat kids in dodgeball, we don't move as fast as the rest of the class. ;-D

Well then obviously your not following what they are doing over the past 10 Orthodox-Catholic ecumenical and conciliar plenary sessions. I think the majority of the Eo will be shocked by a healing of the schism. That speaks volumes imho.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Converted - To Catholic. Sry if that wasn't clear. His background was EO though. I was sorry to see him let go but it was at times a bit like having a EO permissive moderator. Were all human I suppose. He was awesome though and I learned allot from him and he was more merciful than most which I appreciated very much. The problem there wasn't with moderation though, but with proselytization and discord among the posters. It was a great relief to see the focus change and much peace ensued.


Peace.

Never posted there, but I did some reading...that's how I recognized your name
It got pretty ugly over there, so I just haven't been back to read anything.