Actually... the "regarding Flipper" part of my last post was a response to Leanna. But I will consider your post above Flipper and respond to it as well...Michael
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Is divorce sin
- Thread starter johan777
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Jennifer615
A simple rule when one wants to interpret the Bible is to read the immediate context, related themes, word definitions, etc., that all play a part in properly understanding what a specific verse says and does not say.
You say:
Sorry, but where do you read that this applies to divorced people?
Yes, definately. But God never gave us permission to divorce and remarry as we like.
The immediate context of James 2 is about having mercy on the poor. The principal of requital is found in Matt 5:7; Matt 6:14; Matt 7:1 and Matt 18:33. It is about forgiving people their offences against you. But, we cannot go further than God's own word would allow us. God made the "rules" for marriage and divorce. It is our choice to abide by it or make our own rules.
1 Corinthians 7:12 - But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman should have her own husband.
Your explanation of this verse is:
However, what you believe does not change the fact that the divorced person chose to divorce his/her spouse, but now is complaining about a need to have a sexual partner. So God who put this desire in me will understand that I have to marry again, to have my sexual needs fulfilled? Unfortunately not.
Unfortunately, the above verse says "marry" not "remarry".
The bottom line is: I take God's word as it is and obey it, or I interpret it to suit my situation.
A simple rule when one wants to interpret the Bible is to read the immediate context, related themes, word definitions, etc., that all play a part in properly understanding what a specific verse says and does not say.
You say:
Sorry, but where do you read that this applies to divorced people?
Yes, definately. But God never gave us permission to divorce and remarry as we like.
The immediate context of James 2 is about having mercy on the poor. The principal of requital is found in Matt 5:7; Matt 6:14; Matt 7:1 and Matt 18:33. It is about forgiving people their offences against you. But, we cannot go further than God's own word would allow us. God made the "rules" for marriage and divorce. It is our choice to abide by it or make our own rules.
1 Corinthians 7:12 - But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman should have her own husband.
Your explanation of this verse is:
However, what you believe does not change the fact that the divorced person chose to divorce his/her spouse, but now is complaining about a need to have a sexual partner. So God who put this desire in me will understand that I have to marry again, to have my sexual needs fulfilled? Unfortunately not.
Unfortunately, the above verse says "marry" not "remarry".
The bottom line is: I take God's word as it is and obey it, or I interpret it to suit my situation.
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Very insightful post Johanjohan777 said:
I wonder why we dont focus more on the spirit and less on the flesh. What every happened to dieing to the flesh, taking up our cross daily, the thorn in our flesh. Why must we surrender to the burning in our flesh? Unfortunately, we dont burn enough in our spirit for the things of God (holiness, obedience, etc.). I waited to get married to have sexual intercourse and loved it. My wife and I had the same sexual drive and would regularly have sex/make love two and three times a day. Did our flesh burn? Your darn right it did! But, now that we are separated and divorce may potentially be in our future (it is up to her at this point), we are to remain celibate. The more I stoke the flames, the hotter the fire becomes. I must now focus my passions on that which pertains to the Lord. There isnt a day that goes by that I dont think of my wife and think about sex with her, but sex with her or anyone else is just not in the cards at this time and may never be so again in my life. I wonder if one who is sexually incapacitated burns with sexual desire; I bet they do its just that they may not have an outlet for it. Just a thought Michael
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Jennifer615
Senior Member
I knew it! I was right, wasn't I. I knew I would be invalidated!!! I think I have been set up here as some harlot of babylon, simply because I was horribly abused for 6 years till I completely lost all sense of self, and was on the verge of suicide, (not to mention the living hell my daughter went through), and now I have married a wonderful man who loves me and loves my daughter as his own daughter and is a wonderful father to our son too!
So, have I committed the "unforgivable sin" of "remarriage"???? Am I doomed to hell??? Or are you saying I should DIVORCE MY HUSBAND and break up another family!!!!!!!!?????????? Would you be so callous as to try and take these 2 children's (on my avatar) father away from them!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wouldn't that divorce be a sin too?????????????
I can understand why so many people fall away from God, with people like you who are piling condemnation on them!!! Don't you have any compassion???? You don't think abuse is any big deal at all!!!! Why should an innocent abused person be doomed to be celebate for the rest of their life - and YES, FOR SOME IT IS BEING DOOMED TO A LIFE NOT WORTH LIVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you actually think God is some idiotic, brainless bureaucrat that can't see each individual marriage and has no mercy for them? How can you love a God like that!!!! The God I believe in is full of grace, forgiving, understanding and cares about the individual. (Don't twist my words!!!!, I'm not saying God lets you get away with anything, He will forgive provided we confess our sins and truly apologise to Him). Maybe we believe in 2 different God's, your's being a mean tyrant.
So, have I committed the "unforgivable sin" of "remarriage"???? Am I doomed to hell??? Or are you saying I should DIVORCE MY HUSBAND and break up another family!!!!!!!!?????????? Would you be so callous as to try and take these 2 children's (on my avatar) father away from them!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wouldn't that divorce be a sin too?????????????
I can understand why so many people fall away from God, with people like you who are piling condemnation on them!!! Don't you have any compassion???? You don't think abuse is any big deal at all!!!! Why should an innocent abused person be doomed to be celebate for the rest of their life - and YES, FOR SOME IT IS BEING DOOMED TO A LIFE NOT WORTH LIVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you actually think God is some idiotic, brainless bureaucrat that can't see each individual marriage and has no mercy for them? How can you love a God like that!!!! The God I believe in is full of grace, forgiving, understanding and cares about the individual. (Don't twist my words!!!!, I'm not saying God lets you get away with anything, He will forgive provided we confess our sins and truly apologise to Him). Maybe we believe in 2 different God's, your's being a mean tyrant.
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Jennifer,
Im not sure if you are talking to me, or all of us, but here goes anyways
No! I know our God is a loving, compassionate, merciful God. He is also the one who told us how to live and I just want to live as holy a life as I can. By no means am I as far along this walk as I want to be. I really think that we do believe in the same One True God Michael
Im not sure if you are talking to me, or all of us, but here goes anyways
Jennifer615 said:
No! I know our God is a loving, compassionate, merciful God. He is also the one who told us how to live and I just want to live as holy a life as I can. By no means am I as far along this walk as I want to be. I really think that we do believe in the same One True God Michael
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Flipper said:
Flipper said:
Flipper I would need to know the whole story to really give specific advice; however, in a general sense, if we make an assumption that there is no direct reference to this home situation [that] does not provide a good environment for their son, which goes against the Bible, then, by taking the Word literally we have to believe that one must not remarry. Listening to several different pastors recently has given me a lot of things to think about. How many of us are more concerned about eternity than the here and now? How many of us choose to take up our cross and die to our flesh every day? How many of us know that God Himself wants to meet our every need including, intimacy, affection, love, value, validation, esteem, etc.? How many of us get married with the understanding that they are doing so not of selfish reasonsto have their needs mebut, for reasons that desire to meet the other persons needs? The Word of God tells us to prefer others to ourselves. Marriage is generally one of the most selfish things people do unless they understand the last sentence. How many of us consider remarriage without ever considering the significant increase in divorce rate for second and third time marriages. (First time marriage divorce rate approx 50%, second time marriage approx 65-70%, third time marriage approx 75-80%this must have something with the fact that 95% of all divorced people get remarried). When I personally consider these facts in light of my own life, it makes singleness seem quite a bit better than additional divorces (my wife and I are currently separated) in my future. Regarding Should one stay legally separated ad infinitum? I have no problem with this, most especially if neither person is comfortable with, or planning on remarriage Michael
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Nobody is invalidating you. The only thing I and others are doing, is stating the Word of God on the subject. Nobody is invalidating your hurt, the hell you and your daughter went through. Any Christian (and most non christians) will feel compassion for you and the situation you were in. We are not disputing the horrible, unspeakable atrociousness of it all, but that is not the point.
The point is that God does not validate my personal circumstances, to let me go ahead and do what I want. That is why we have the Word of God as our map for life. If we made choices contrary to God's word, (and I did a lot of times) we have to approach Him in humility, confess our sins, accept His forgiveness and follow His Word. God will never lead us contrary to His word.
If you did this (and I'm sure you did) then you received his pardon and he enlightened you as to what to do. If you feel He has done that, why bother about what others say. Being Christians, we have the Holy Spirit in us and He will lead us in all truth, not me , your pastor or anybody else.
However, by frequenting this site and responding to this thread, has opened the way for people like myself to state my case according to what I read in the Bible.
People fall away from God because they don't want to follow His ways and His Word, for no other reason. Why is it that if someone quotes the Bible and someone else does not like it, then you are judging and condemning people, Yes, we do love and have compassion, but we do as Paul told Timothy in 2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision. 2Ti 2:24 A servant of the Lord must not argue. Instead, he must be kind to everyone, teachable, willing to suffer wrong, 2Ti 2:25 and gentle in refuting his opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,"
Life is always worth living when you are a child of God, living in His grace and mercy, receiving His joy and peace that passes all understanding for every new day. At one stage of my life when I woke up in the morning all I could say was "Lord because I woke up this morning, you must still have a plan for my life and then it is worth it to go on living".
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Because of His word, His promises, His grace and mercy in my own life I know that God not only loves us, but God is love according to 1Jo 4:8 The person who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1Jo 4:9 This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent his unique Son into the world so that we might live through him. 1Jo 4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
The above also shows that God loves the individual and yes, he is concerned about every individual, but never above His word. He became like us (without sinning) Heb 2:17 Thus he had to become like his brothers in every way, so that he could be a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God and could atone for the people's sins. Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Anyway, as I said before, every christian has the Holy Spirit and have to follow His leading. I think everone reading that your are now happily married will praise God with you and will not advice you to divorce your present husband.
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I can respect your answer.mghalpern said:
Say our hypothetical couple goes ahead and divorces. Wife is content to never get married again (husband hit her, she doesn't want to be in that situation again, understandable). After a few years, a single man in her church notices her and starts to attempt to court her. He's single but whether he had always been, or not doesn't matter here. He's a good man, a good potential father figure for her, gentle, kind, and genuinely wants to take care of her the rest of her life. Wife finds she has lots in common with him and a desire to give of herself again. They seem most compatable with each other.
However getting remarried is a sin. Is this man coming into her life along the lines of Satan tempting her to sin?
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Flipper... I can't say with absolute certainty that it would be Satan tempting her to sin in this specific example (if you happen to be referring to an actual woman you know); however, it is quite possible that the enemy may be tempting her. On the other hand, the flesh is often week when we are not extremely close to our Heavenly Father and, thus can also lead us to sin. I attribute very little sin in my life to Satan and I believe that much of my sin is my own weakness to my flesh and lack of closeness to the Lord. Just a couple hours ago I was at the gym working out and really struggled with my own "singleness." Watching couples working out together and all the "perfect" bodies reminded me of my wife (whom I am separated from) and how much I desire female love, companionship, affection, acceptance, validation as a man, etc., yet I had to remember that my Abba Father needs to be the one I turn to for those feeling/needs to be met. Much like the many people I have counseled who are in marriages and feel all the same things that aren't being me by their spouse for one reason or another, like them, I can't search for those things in another person. I have strongly considered what life may/will be without my wife (and I think you have an idea how much I truly want to reconcile with her), and have come to some conclusions. I will continue to pursue my education to be of greater use to God as there is such an enormous need for professional Christian counseling and I will probably do some short term missions trips each year or so for the foreseeable future (this is something that had never crossed my mind when my wife and I were living together). God can and will use me in a mighty way no matter what happens to my marriage. Just like a sermon I am listening to at this moment, God will take our failures and redeem them to use them for His purpose if we take our attention off of our problems and seek the desires of God's heart. Please respond...I look forward to it...MichaelFlipper said:
Edit: We serve a loving God who disciplines His children. I don't think that we will always know/see His discipline in our lifes for a particular sin we have committed; yet I do believe that we will answer to Him at the time of judgment. Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life. (Gal. 6:7-8) In the vast majority of divorces, we (both spouses) have sowed to our flesh and reaped corruption. I don't mind addressing adultery and abuse, but I prefer to focus my attention on the great number of marriages that choose divorce based on incompatibility, "loss of love," can't get along, don't like each other any more, etc., etc., etc. In the past fifteen plus years of counseling, I have only met a handful of marriages that have experienced adultery or abuse. I have also never met a healthy, happy, successful marriage where a partner committed adultery or abuse (not to say that it has never happened). Very often, I am only able to counsel one spouse because the other spouse isn't interested in counseling or because the counselee doesnt want their spouse to know they are receiving counseling. Do to this fact; most often I can only focus on the individual that I am talking to. This is the only person that I can assist to make godly, positive changes in their life. It comes down to personal responsibility. In about 80-90% of the cases, I have found that a person generally responds to ill feelings with non-productive behavior. In other words, most of us don't live above our feeling to do what is right no matter how we feel. I failed in this area many times. I let my feeling dictate my actions...what a fool I was. This is like throwing gasoline on a fire.
The pastor I am listening to right now just said something profound...
"God is more interested in how faithful we are than what we can achieve. He looks at the faithfulness of our heart: our willingness and courage to be obedient to the process we are going through regardless of the outcome. In the midst of uncertainty, are we still willing to be obedient? You are successful if you remain obedient to what the Lord has asked of you in this new season".
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mghalpern--
I can say that I am guilty of not always spending the time to really soak in each post on a topic because I have a 7 week old baby and I only get short bursts of time to spend online. So if you ever think me ignoring a question it is probably me missing it because I am trying to hurry! I think you wanted me to support my position etc. etc. but it is hard to explain my position quickly! So let me say this, after reading that your wife was formerly married and she has been forgiven I have come to the conclusion that perhaps our views on this issue are a lot closer together than originally thought. "Is divorce sin?" Yes, it is. I have heard some Christians tell me that people who are remarried should get divorced because they are forever living in sin! I find this beyond comprehension because my parents are both divorced and remarried and my dad became a Christian. So yes, he is remarried, but I see what damage it would do should either of my parents divorce their current spouse. I have three half siblings! I can only think of the pain and think it it cannot be God's will for remarried persons to divorce because God is unable to forgive them. God is able. And I believe they can look forward and protect their marriage now. I can't se how it would be God's will for them to get divorced! And yet some here would argue so. Divorce is sin, I am sorry if I gave the impression that I really don't think so. I do have a problem with the abuse issue. I come here to explore my beliefs and see what I can uncover. I am always open to hearing something new. I have a problem with people who try to find loopholes, I know we discussed one of them earlier. Another loophole I have a problem with is legal/permenant separation. People believe divorce is a sin, so they believe they can instead forever be separated. It sounds like another loophole to me because that is not what God intends for marriage. I guess I think if things are really so bad (abuse) that they have to be permenantly separated, why not just get divorced?? I feel it is like kids who find a loophole in their parents rule. "Don't stay out past 8pm, okay?" So instead, they stay IN their friends house past 8pm? Not what parents intended. Bad example, but maybe you can think of a better one since I am in a hurry!
I can say that I am guilty of not always spending the time to really soak in each post on a topic because I have a 7 week old baby and I only get short bursts of time to spend online. So if you ever think me ignoring a question it is probably me missing it because I am trying to hurry! I think you wanted me to support my position etc. etc. but it is hard to explain my position quickly! So let me say this, after reading that your wife was formerly married and she has been forgiven I have come to the conclusion that perhaps our views on this issue are a lot closer together than originally thought. "Is divorce sin?" Yes, it is. I have heard some Christians tell me that people who are remarried should get divorced because they are forever living in sin! I find this beyond comprehension because my parents are both divorced and remarried and my dad became a Christian. So yes, he is remarried, but I see what damage it would do should either of my parents divorce their current spouse. I have three half siblings! I can only think of the pain and think it it cannot be God's will for remarried persons to divorce because God is unable to forgive them. God is able. And I believe they can look forward and protect their marriage now. I can't se how it would be God's will for them to get divorced! And yet some here would argue so. Divorce is sin, I am sorry if I gave the impression that I really don't think so. I do have a problem with the abuse issue. I come here to explore my beliefs and see what I can uncover. I am always open to hearing something new. I have a problem with people who try to find loopholes, I know we discussed one of them earlier. Another loophole I have a problem with is legal/permenant separation. People believe divorce is a sin, so they believe they can instead forever be separated. It sounds like another loophole to me because that is not what God intends for marriage. I guess I think if things are really so bad (abuse) that they have to be permenantly separated, why not just get divorced?? I feel it is like kids who find a loophole in their parents rule. "Don't stay out past 8pm, okay?" So instead, they stay IN their friends house past 8pm? Not what parents intended. Bad example, but maybe you can think of a better one since I am in a hurry!
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Leanna said:
Leanna said:
Leanna I never thought you wouldnt respond. I cant imagine that you would have more than a few minutes to yourself with a 7 week old baby. By the way Congratulations! First, regarding my wife, and many others, she wasnt a Christian with her first two husbands, so she wasnt a new creation in Christ until after her second divorce. I believe people who come to Christ after their divorce are free to remarry if they choose. Second, Im not necessarily for permanent separation either, though I dont believe that I have another option. I dont see it as a loophole. My wife moved out and whether she does file for divorce or remains separated from me, I find myself in the same position: single without remarriage in my future. To give my perspective on your question, I guess I think if things are really so bad (abuse) that they have to be [permanently] separated, why not just get divorced??, I would say that the only reason for divorce is to open up an opportunity for remarriage which I cant support scripturally. If one spouse leaves because of abuse (and we assume there is no scriptural grounds for divorce) then they will live without the sin of divorce (and remarriageadultery) and live the rest of their life serving God as a single person. I dont want to be separated from my wife for life. I know I have changed significantly and would love the opportunity to show my wife these changes, but I cant control what she does, or doesnt do. I may just have to live with the consequences of our sin until the Lord takes me home. When my wife wanted me to move out originally, I thought this is the worst thing you can do to salvage a marriage. The vast majority of separations end in divorce. Removing the problem from your environment most often doesnt give you any impetus to restore health to the said problem, so she eventually decided to leave. Removing the problem doesnt solve the problem. If she had been honest about the separation (that this is a time to work on ourselves), we would be getting back together, but once a person tastes freedom (when they feel trapped in a situation) they generally dont return to the environment they felt trapped in. So often, when one mate eventually makes the decision to leave, there is little hope that they will ever return (the usually knew this deep down inside when they left). The only time I support separation is when a spouses (or child/rens) life is in some sense of danger Michael
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That was a well thought out answer, and I do understand and respect what you said - you are living it, so your words carry quite a bit of weight. Probably deep down I agree with you.mghalpern said:
Like I said, I'm married and we don't have any problems, nor do I anticipate any.
Putting myself in the shoes of some of the people here, I can't say with certainty that if I were to get divorced that I wouldn't remarry. I can't tell someone that it is wrong, when I don't think I could hold back myself, especially, if there is abuse. If I hear of someone getting out of a marriage because the spouse is beating them up, I'm not going to be sad for them. I will be happy that they got out with their life. Maybe self preservation is selfish, but like you said, let God be the judge of that. I guess there have been too many women in this area killed by abusive husbands. At least it has seemed that way lately.
I will say this:
This is going to make some people mad, but I think there is a lot of truth in this. I've been there. Thankfully I didn't marry the guy, but nothing like a loser to bring out the worst in someone.
BTW, the situation I posed was purely hypothetical. I've known people in similar circumstances, but no one specific came to mind.
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fluffy_rainbow
I've Got a Secret ;-)
I am very disappointed by alot of responses here. There are different circumstances for everyone. This issue is debated almost as much as whether or not it's a sin to drink alcoholic beverages or get tattoos. Point is, every single Christian will have a slightly different opinion on the issue and so I think threads like these are merely a breeding ground for discontentment, dissention among brothers and sisters in Christ, doubt, guilt, and shame. I would almost be willing to bet money those who say "divorce is a sin and wrong in ALL situations" has either never divorced, never even been married, or has never been married to an abuser or adulteror/adulteress. Until you've been there you really don't have the right to interpret the Scriptures in the manner you see fit to condemn those doing things differently than you feel they should.
I have heard so many different opinions on divorce.
1. It's only acceptable in cases of adultery
2. It's only acceptable if you're the husband being cheated on, but not the wife.
3. In cases of abuse or sustance abuse it's acceptable.
4. If you're being abused you are not allowed to divorce, only separate and pray for healing and reconciliation.
5. If you remarry you're committing adultery and if you don't divorce your new spouse and reconcile with your ex-spouse you will go to hell for living in unrepented sin.
I'm just saying, I agree with oldrooster. Unless you've been there and experienced that pain, don't condescend by saying "I'm sorry for your pain....BUT you're still a vile sinner for divorcing the man who beat your relentlessly or your wife whom you caught having sex with countless other men in your own bed". If you feel at peace with God and your decision then I wouldn't worry how others interpret the Scriptures. If God gives you peace, don't allow people in your family, your church, or online make you feel guilty and ashamed.
I have heard so many different opinions on divorce.
1. It's only acceptable in cases of adultery
2. It's only acceptable if you're the husband being cheated on, but not the wife.
3. In cases of abuse or sustance abuse it's acceptable.
4. If you're being abused you are not allowed to divorce, only separate and pray for healing and reconciliation.
5. If you remarry you're committing adultery and if you don't divorce your new spouse and reconcile with your ex-spouse you will go to hell for living in unrepented sin.
I'm just saying, I agree with oldrooster. Unless you've been there and experienced that pain, don't condescend by saying "I'm sorry for your pain....BUT you're still a vile sinner for divorcing the man who beat your relentlessly or your wife whom you caught having sex with countless other men in your own bed". If you feel at peace with God and your decision then I wouldn't worry how others interpret the Scriptures. If God gives you peace, don't allow people in your family, your church, or online make you feel guilty and ashamed.
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fluffy_rainbow
I've Got a Secret ;-)
Oh, and lest we should forget...the Bible also says a woman is commanded to marry her rapist in such situations.
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fluffy_rainbow said:
I'm sorry if you are disappointed. I agree there are many different opinions and circumstances. However, as I stated before, my circumstances or opinion is not relevant at all. I cannot interpret the Bible to suit my special circumstances.
Again I will acknowledge that there are spouses that go through horrible, atrocious times in their marriages, that I will not wish on my worst enemy, BUT my only resource of truth, of the way forward, is the Bible.
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