Is division and denomination bad?

[tz620q]

God allows freedom of choice so that those who choose correctly can learn to remain free. And, to prove that the leading of the Spirit is reality.

I agree with your point about freedom of choice; but if the Spirit is truly leading we should come to consensus of opinion. Freedom of choice in the secular world usually means plurality of opinion.

 

[com7fy8]

thousand of denominations

My opinion is that there are religious people who are church politicians who have been able to get control, either to take over a group, or to start one.

I think we can see now how certain denominations have been taken over by people with an anti-Bible agenda and in order to push their own causes and try to use a denomination as a bloc of voters.

However . . . what is happening at the top does not necessarily represent people lower in an organization. There can be the gentle and humble Jesus people who do not try to control others and play politics.

"No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier." (2 Timothy 2:4)

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 3:4)

A denomination can have wrong top-level leadership, but a local pastor can be a good Christian example leader.

One guy I know says he was unsaved in a church, he got saved, and now his church is into born-again life and ministry.

Others stay in groups which could be going apostate . . . staying there in order to reach others for Jesus. They might share with other Christians, during home groups, where they might meet with ones of obedient churches not in their own organization.

A denomination might start because someone gets into a major squawk about some un-Biblical idea that hardly effects anyone in real life, but the person or group starts their own gang because of that scuffle. But ones who later join their new group can get enough of God's word so they mature in Jesus and do not get hung up with those foolish items that got the denomination started; they get to see through it. And the ones who get wise to things often become the respected pastors, right in groups which had been started because of some ideas that were not with it.

But there is hope for ones who start a wrong or silly thing; they can grow up, too. I have been told how one group of men started a wrong thing, then saw how horribly it was going and they got out; but others kept it going.

So . . . do what God has you do, make His use of your situation, and . . .

it's what you make it,

how you take it . . .

just don't you fake it!

 

[GenemZ]

I agree with your point about freedom of choice; but if the Spirit is truly leading we should come to consensus of opinion. Freedom of choice in the secular world usually means plurality of opinion.

Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ,
if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any
tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-
minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind." Phlpns 2:1-2​

We could have a consensus. But, we don't.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3
​

Its doctrine taught properly that only can create a true consensus.

Yet, Paul warned that many will not tolerate sound doctrinal teaching. For it must insult the flesh when done properly.

Did Paul lie?

 

[JIMINZ]

we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

The Advance of the Gospel
Php 1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;
Php 1:13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
Php 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
Php 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
Php 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
Php 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Even back in the beginning of the Church there were what we would call Division, but Paul said it differently, he understood the Power of God through the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of men.
It's not a belief in some Denomination or another, it's only the Belief that Jesus died for your sins, and that you are Baptized into His death unto Newness of Life in the Holy Ghost.

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul was saying, I don't care what Denomination you want to call yourself, but that we should all understand that Jesus is the Head of the Church and "WE ARE" that Church, regardless of Denomination.

Jesus knew how things would be, telling them how things would transpire.

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Denominations don't have to mean division unless we allow them to. A little Christian charity toward Nicene-believing Christians who practice differently than us could go a long way. Our disunity has nothing to do with denominations but everything to do with disapproval of folks thinking and practicing differently than us.

As for me, I'm glad there are denominational choices. No disrespect intended, but I don't care to worship in the same manner that some of you do. I left one church and came to another for exactly that reason.

 

[Ragdoll]

This is never a topic embraced by many Christians today. Yes, division is bad.

Here is a short summarization of Church history.

The first 1000 years of Christianity there was only one faith, one Church, and one Lord.

Then there was the Great Schism of 1054 A.D. This was the first division and it was between eastern and western orthodoxy. This division was supposed to be temporary. Today they are still divided. This division wasn't too harmful but still a division nonetheless.

Then there was the Protestant movement led by Luther, Tyndale and Cranmer. This division was necessary to preserve the much more traditional Gospel that was being lost by Roman Catholics who were becoming corrupt in their ways.

Not long after the Protestant movement, the Puritan movement broke out everywhere. This movement not only opposed Roman Catholicism, but it also opposed Protestantism. People today are not fully aware of this but Puritanism is not Protestantism since it opposed Luther, Tyndale and Cranmer. Puritanism wanted to break so far away from Catholicism that nothing traditional remained. Everyone and anyone could start a church and the result was massive overload of denominations popping up all over. Out of all the Churches considered Protestant today, about 98% of them are actually Puritan Churches. This division was bad because it led to many troubles in the Church and the divisions were so many that the Church today is plagued by all the denominations out there.

Finally, we arrive to the 20th and 21st centuries. The Roman Catholic Church is far gone and considered apostate in their doctrines which are all worldly views. Jesus called us out of the world, not to embrace the world like modern Roman Catholic Churches do. Then there are all these new cults like the Black Hebrew Israelites just to name one. Cult after cult and they get worse and more obvious all the time.

I studied this history and was not happy with this history. Today I am a Lutheran because I want to be part of the true Protestant movement which was not so radical that all Christian history prior to Luther was lost. I don't even want to say these words but I also want to express myself here in open honesty: I do believe that a new reformation needs to take place. This reformation must be loyal to Scripture as well to the 2000 years of Christian history and doctrine that we have. I'm just not happy with what I see in the world of denominations today. I'm kinda disgusted by it. I just don't believe in division. I believe in unity in the body of Christ. I believe all Christians should worship one Lord in one faith. But people must be convinced of these things in their own minds. Nothing will change unless people change for the better.

Then there are denominations who can prove to another denomination that there is a error in their doctrine. How does the other denomination reply when corrected? They argue back, even though they were clearly corrected in their misinterpretation. I find this very disturbing because these leaders cannot accept correction. Any Christian leader who cannot accept correction when the true answers have been clearly established, cannot possibly be men of God. For a true man of God accepts correction and loves discipline. I would like to see more godly leaders in the Church today who can accept correction, who can accept sound doctrine, and who can accept sound reasoning.

 

[martymonster]

we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

Yep. The church is in a very sorry state.

 

[The Liturgist]

This is never a topic embraced by many Christians today. Yes, division is bad.

Here is a short summarization of Church history.

The first 1000 years of Christianity there was only one faith, one Church, and one Lord.

Then there was the Great Schism of 1054 A.D. This was the first division and it was between eastern and western orthodoxy. This division was supposed to be temporary. Today they are still divided. This division wasn't too harmful but still a division nonetheless.

Then there was the Protestant movement led by Luther, Tyndale and Cranmer. This division was necessary to preserve the much more traditional Gospel that was being lost by Roman Catholics who were becoming corrupt in their ways.

Not long after the Protestant movement, the Puritan movement broke out everywhere. This movement not only opposed Roman Catholicism, but it also opposed Protestantism. People today are not fully aware of this but Puritanism is not Protestantism since it opposed Luther, Tyndale and Cranmer. Puritanism wanted to break so far away from Catholicism that nothing traditional remained. Everyone and anyone could start a church and the result was massive overload of denominations popping up all over. Out of all the Churches considered Protestant today, about 98% of them are actually Puritan Churches. This division was bad because it led to many troubles in the Church and the divisions were so many that the Church today is plagued by all the denominations out there.

Finally, we arrive to the 20th and 21st centuries. The Roman Catholic Church is far gone and considered apostate in their doctrines which are all worldly views. Jesus called us out of the world, not to embrace the world like modern Roman Catholic Churches do. Then there are all these new cults like the Black Hebrew Israelites just to name one. Cult after cult and they get worse and more obvious all the time.

I studied this history and was not happy with this history. Today I am a Lutheran because I want to be part of the true Protestant movement which was not so radical that all Christian history prior to Luther was lost. I don't even want to say these words but I also want to express myself here in open honesty: I do believe that a new reformation needs to take place. This reformation must be loyal to Scripture as well to the 2000 years of Christian history and doctrine that we have. I'm just not happy with what I see in the world of denominations today. I'm kinda disgusted by it. I just don't believe in division. I believe in unity in the body of Christ. I believe all Christians should worship one Lord in one faith. But people must be convinced of these things in their own minds. Nothing will change unless people change for the better.

Then there are denominations who can prove to another denomination that there is a error in their doctrine. How does the other denomination reply when corrected? They argue back, even though they were clearly corrected in their misinterpretation. I find this very disturbing because these leaders cannot accept correction. Any Christian leader who cannot accept correction when the true answers have been clearly established, cannot possibly be men of God. For a true man of God accepts correction and loves discipline. I would like to see more godly leaders in the Church today who can accept correction, who can accept sound doctrine, and who can accept sound reasoning.

Firstly, you missed the Nestorian and Chalcedonian Schisms of the Fourth Century, which are unfortunately still with us.

Secondly, the East/West schism was extremely harmful; given that the first doctrinally recognizable Protestant church was formed after the forced conversion of the Czechs from Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism and was an attempt by Jan Hus and his followers to regain what they had under Orthodoxy and lost after being conquered and converted by the Austrians, namely, communion in both kinds and the liturgy in a language they could understand, I would argue the schisms of the Protestant Reformation could have been avoided had the Roman Church worked to stay within a theological harmony of the Eastern Orthodox, rather than excommunicating and later conducting Crusades against them for the Eastern Orthodox refusal to accept Papal Supremacy.

 

[GenemZ]

Denominations don't have to mean division unless we allow them to. A little Christian charity toward Nicene-believing Christians who practice differently than us could go a long way. Our disunity has nothing to do with denominations but everything to do with disapproval of folks thinking and practicing differently than us.

As for me, I'm glad there are denominational choices. No disrespect intended, but I don't care to worship in the same manner that some of you do. I left one church and came to another for exactly that reason.

Being "nice" does not cause unity. That allows for peaceful division.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Being "nice" does not cause unity. That allows for peaceful division.

I disagree. One may prefer to worship on Saturday, one on Sunday. One may worship with clanging cymbals and tongues, another with solemn liturgical worship. One's minister in casual attire, another's fully vested. Can they not respect each other and embrace each other as fellow Christians? Is there not unity in sharing the same faith, however differently it is expressed?

 

[GenemZ]

I disagree. One may prefer to worship on Saturday, one on Sunday. One may worship with clanging cymbals and tongues, another with solemn liturgical worship. One's minister in casual attire, another's fully vested. Can they not respect each other and embrace each other as fellow Christians? Is there not unity in sharing the same faith, however differently it is expressed?

What you just said reveals one reason why we have division...

You are looking at the outward. Not how much and how well the Word of God is taught.. explained.. and understood inwardly.

We all have some faith when we believed in Jesus Christ. But to grow in our faith???

FAITH comes from hearing the Word of God taught properly! (Romans 10:17)

 

[seeking.IAM]

FAITH comes from hearing the Word of God taught properly!

The notion that your church teaches properly and others do not is the very reason there is division. Let us be united by what we have in common.

 

[GenemZ]

The notion that your church teaches properly and others do not is the very reason there is division. Let us be united by what we have in common.

There is no true unity that way.

Paul warned that what you wish to deny, would become reality, in 2 Tim 4:3.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

You can not have unity (other than on a silly superficial level) with how we have things today.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

I definitely don't think God is in charge of this. Why would Jesus pray to His Father asking Him to keep us as one (John 17:1-26)? No pride and arrogance was the major player in creating so many denominations (and I'll say the pride and arrogance was on both sides of the divisions). Now, I feel God wants us to start putting His Church back together (because we have a greater enemy to defeat with Our Lord guiding us and that is Satan and secular society). How can anyone take the Christian faith seriously when we have so many differences in major doctrines; some of these doctrines contradicting one another.

If there is one great thing we should pray for daily to Our God that is we begin to unify again. Definitely, we should call out those other denominations or people who try to continually divide us by making extremely false claims. Another thing we need to pray to Our Father about is that we develop wisdom, understanding, and caringness so we can reverse "the tower of Babel" problem we all have and we truly hear one another's views.

Don't let the devil convince we need these different denominations. There are millions of people who still need to know and believe Our God and won't until they see a more unified Church. Put away our pride and do what God wanted us to be all along.

God bless each and every one of us so we will discern God's words.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Depends.

We have thousands of denominations today, but they get along just fine or even support each other.

Still much better situation than few hundred years ago, when there was just 3 and killing and hating each other.

Ah, I beg to differ. We are still hating and killing one another today. Many Christian denomination just love to throw around the name "the harlot of Babylon" for the Catholic Church. Some Baptist Ministries are so bent on trying to prove that the doctrines in the Catholic Church are false. There is alot of hatred toward the Catholic Faith and the Orthodox Faith mainly from people who totally misunderstand and misrepresent their doctrines daily even though its been explained to them hundreds and hundreds of times.

I will say on this forum though, almost everyone has been very welcoming and that gives me a good feeling about the Christian Community here. Thank you for your kindness.

 

[JIMINZ]

I definitely don't think God is in charge of this. Why would Jesus pray to His Father asking Him to keep us as one (John 17:1-26)? No pride and arrogance was the major player in creating so many denominations (and I'll say the pride and arrogance was on both sides of the divisions). Now, I feel God wants us to start putting His Church back together (because we have a greater enemy to defeat with Our Lord guiding us and that is Satan and secular society). How can anyone take the Christian faith seriously when we have so many differences in major doctrines; some of these doctrines contradicting one another.

If there is one great thing we should pray for daily to Our God that is we begin to unify again. Definitely, we should call out those other denominations or people who try to continually divide us by making extremely false claims. Another thing we need to pray to Our Father about is that we develop wisdom, understanding, and caringness so we can reverse "the tower of Babel" problem we all have and we truly hear one another's views.

Don't let the devil convince we need these different denominations. There are millions of people who still need to know and believe Our God and won't until they see a more unified Church. Put away our pride and do what God wanted us to be all along.

God bless each and every one of us so we will discern God's words.

Does this mean we of the Protestant Denominations in order for this Unity to take place, should all return to the fold of Catholicism?

 

[tz620q]

Does this mean we of the Protestant Denominations in order for this Unity to take place, should all return to the fold of Catholicism?

Unity is achieved by dialogue with the hope of overcoming past obstacles and coalescing on shared beliefs. If we arrive at a point of agreement, what other obstacles do you see that would prevent unification?

 

[JIMINZ]

Unity is achieved by dialogue with the hope of overcoming past obstacles and coalescing on shared beliefs. If we arrive at a point of agreement, what other obstacles do you see that would prevent unification?

Unity is really achieved by the Holy Spirit.

Take 2 hypothetical questions for arguments sake.

1) On a given Sunday, I attend your Catholic Church, would I be allowed to receive Communion.

2) On a given Sunday, you attend my Charismatic Church, would you partake of Communion?

 

[tz620q]

Unity is really achieved by the Holy Spirit.

Take 2 hypothetical questions for arguments sake.

1) On a given Sunday, I attend your Catholic Church, would I be allowed to receive Communion.

2) On a given Sunday, you attend my Charismatic Church, would you partake of Communion?

I agree about the Holy Spirit being the source of unity; but that yields an interesting question. How can the Holy Spirit be the author of confusion and difference in beliefs?

As far as Communion, I think your viewpoint of the Eucharist and mine is probably quite different. Even if we resolved those very important disagreements, the Catholic definition of communion is based on the idea of defining the community of Catholics versus those who are not. If you were a member of some rite like the Masons or some Fraternity or Sorority, you probably wouldn't let outsiders into your most self-affirming rites. That is the reason we have closed communion in Catholicism. I know this can lead to conflict with those not allowed to take communion with us; but the Catholic Church is one where you join it by agreeing to its precepts. It does not leave room for those whose beliefs meet ours 90% of the time and they think the Church is wrong on the other 10%. To be Catholic is to realize that you are not in charge and to be humble enough to listen to the voice of tradition and the voice of leadership.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

Does this mean we of the Protestant Denominations in order for this Unity to take place, should all return to the fold of Catholicism?

I don't see it that way. There are very valid arguments that need to be hashed out in every direction including some Catholic beliefs and how the faithful observe them. Look at the Anglicans who converted to Catholicism, they still maintain alot of their traditions:

Pope makes it easier for Anglicans to convert

So its possible to have the other denominations do the same after each understands one another's doctrines and agree in the major areas. Of course the more different a denomination is from the Catholic faith, the harder it will be to reconcile the differences. The goal is to continue trying to resolve the differences, continue to pray for unification and continue to listen with an open heart. God bless.